DVLA/driving - panic!

[mrburden]

If you wear glasses to drive and you are able to read the number plate at the requisite distance whilst wearing them then you will have complied with the Law. Always providing you wear the glasses at all times whilst driving.

Ken

So why was I stopped from driving by the DVLA?
I wear glasses, have regular eye tests, can see the numberplate at the required distance and therefore appear to be within the law. If what you say is correct, how do the DVLA have the power to stop me as I'm abiding by the law which means the police/courts would have no interest in my case?

 

[cugila]

Mr B.

My answer was to Dippy and gives the minimum eyesight standards to drive.

This might help you understand a little better what happened to you.

There is basically a two tier system in operation here. The Police and the Courts. Then the DVLA.
Both can make decisions which can affect your licence status. Some of the decisions of the DVLA can be challenged in the Courts by way of an appeal. Did you take some legal advice at the time this happened ?

What I stated IS correct. That is what the Law of this land requires of you and any other Motorist. I have been telling you and other members what the Road Traffic Law of this Country states. The powers that Courts of this land have. Anything that the DVLA do is totally separate from the Road Traffic Law in this instance but based on Medical opinion. Your Opthamologist it appears.

I dealt with the Road Traffic Laws over a period of nearly 30 yrs and trained Traffic Patrol Officers in both the Law and the administration of it for nearly 10 years. I was an Accident Investigator and also dealt with this sort of problem on a fairly regular basis. I was considered an Expert in such matters by the Courts and as such was also allowed to give evidence of opinion because of this. I always made sure what I stated was totally correct as here.

The DVLA have powers to revoke or curtail licences as and when they see fit. That is why you were on a restricted licence at first I believe and it then appears that the Medical Review Board read a report from your Opthamologist which showed your eyesight was not good enough to drive, therefore your licence was revoked by the DVLA as opposed to the Courts. Yes, it is an an anomaly but I didn't write the Law I just had to work with it ! :|

You should ask the Medical Review Board and your Opthamologist why they took your licence away from you. The Opthamologist must have written something pretty damning for them to take your licence away. There was and is an appeal process as well which may or may not have helped you at the time or even now.

I am not a party to those decisions so I cannot really assist you any further in this matter.

Ken

Here is a link to the latest At a Glance Guide from the DVLA. Take a look at Chapter 6, Visual Disorders Section which is listed in the Guide for Medical Practitioners. This shows all the other types of Visual Disorder which may then warrant your licence being revoked. Bear in mind this has been updated several times since you had your licence taken away.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/medical/ataglance.aspx

 

[mrburden]

Thanks Ken. So I think that we can agree in the fact that passing a police roadside sight test does not mean that one has the sight requirement to hold a licence, hence the reason that diabetics must inform the DVLA of their condition, rather than the police.
No amount of roadside testing would show that a driver is anything other that short-sighted and, as we know, many people will think that if they can see a numberplate at a distance of 20 metres, they are OK to drive. In your many years as a traffic officer how often did you report a driver for a poor field of vision or slow reaction to differing light levels as the result of a roadside sight test?

 

[cugila]

Thanks Ken. So I think that we can agree in the fact that passing a police roadside sight test does not mean that one has the sight requirement to hold a licence, hence the reason that diabetics must inform the DVLA of their condition.

Sorry, not quite. I can't agree with that first comment.......it just means you pass the legal minimum eyesight requirement to obtain and hold your driving licence. Unfortunately you as you know had other complications which lost you your licence.

At the risk of starting another discussion not all Diabetic drivers are obliged to inform the DVLA of their condition. The Medical Guide I posted above explains all the requirements fully. Basically, you don't have to inform them if you are only on oral medications and certain other injectable drugs. These are listed in the guide. If it's Insulin then you do have to notify them. It can get very complicated at times. :?

Ken

Edited as this was posted after I answered.

In your many years as a traffic officer how often did you report a driver for a poor field of vision or slow reaction to differing light levels as the result of a roadside sight test?mrburden

Never, that would only be picked up in a sight test at an Opticians. So it is not relevant to the roadside eyesight test.
Ken.

 

[Stuboy]

This is interesting about the eye sight.
I recently developed Diplopia on left gaze.... no optician or ophthalmologist has told me to stop driving... yet the PDF you've linked to states Cease driving on diagnosis. I have an appointment tomorrow so will ask about this!!

 

[rosemaryeliz]

Hi All ,
I am new to the site although have been reading it for a few months.
I am type 2 ,was on diet & metformin for past 9 years and have just had to start insulin in the past 3 weeks,which has resulted in my levels dropping from 11 to 6-7.
I am disabled (to much to say here)and 66 years old,hence I have a mobility car.
I have just had to notify DVLC who have informed me that after I filled in the form they sent me ,they would contact my Doctors re my diabetis and only if necessary eg: if I was a danger from hypo's etc would they then put me on a 3 year scheme. This also applies if you are over 70 when you would automatically have a 3 year licence issued.

Rosemary

 

[CarbsRok]

y

 

[mrburden]

Hi Rosemary, I think you must have misunderstood what you have been told.
All people on insulin have a restricted license. Anyone on insulin is in danger of having a hypo no matter how good their control is.
So welcome to the club [/quote]

...And both T1 & T2 diabetics can suffer sight complications, such as retinopathy etc. which may not be picked up by "standard" sight tests and which the sufferer may not be aware of either.
Having suffered with retinopathy, blindness in one eye (resulting in a narrowed field of vision) and "Triton" colour-blindness I can still read the numberplate at 20 metres. These problems creep up on you and until you have an in-depth vision examination, you don't know what you can't actually see.

 

[ShyGirl]

 

[jocat44]

When I was first diagnosed as T2 and started on meds I was told I needed to inform DVLA and car insurance. Also on the information given on the government website?Dvla there was some conflicting advice so I printed off their health questionnaire for diabetes, filled it in and sent it to them. They replied that I was ok to continue driving provided nothing chnaged in terms of meds, complications etc. They did say they need to be informed if a diabetic is on insulin. I also wrote to my insurance company but they have never bothered replying to me. If in doubt I would advise notifying them all to be on the safe side, the possible repercussions if you dont and should have are too high.
Jo

 

[Dippy3103]

Probably sound advice Jocat.... Nobody ever got into trouble for declaring something they didn't need to!

 

[shellygirl78]

I have also had a car acccident as a reult of hypoglycaemia.
I caused a multi car pile up on the moterway while pregnant with my 2nd child.
During pregnancy my blood sugars occasionally dropped without warning
which is what happened on this occasion. When i got in the car i had no idea my sugars were dropping and during my journey home i felt really tired and then Boom! The diabetes team at Winchester were aware of this happening to me before and now feel that maybe they should have advised me not to drive. The police charged me with dangerous driving and i had to go to court.
My doctor at the time was paid to write a report in my defence as there is a defence of 'automatism' that my barrister advised me to use which is a defence when a car accident is caused my a explainable medical reason rather then criminal intent. My doctor would not support this defence even though they were aware of my hypos and had not advised me to stop driving.
Luckily for me it all came to court months after the baby was born and i was back at work and the prosecution dropped the charge to 'without due care and attention' which meant i did not have to lose my driving liscene and job but still left me with a criminal record. In my most recent pregnancy i was concerned about this situation happening again. My diabetes nurse advised me about the benefits of a insulin pump to stabilize my sugars and continual glucose monitoring. Winchester refused to provide this and when the diabetes nurse then advised me to complain they got unhappy and withdrew all diabetes care for me at my local trust. The strategic health authority said in view of the pregnancy the care was to be reinstated but despite my concerns they still refused to provide a insulin pump or any continual glucose monitoring. This time i did not cause a RTA but due to a sudden severe hypo I ended up on intensive care for 2 days, nearly died and my baby was delivered prematurly. I think the lack of diabetes care i have received is disgusting. It seems that the team and the trust in which they work are accountable to no one. Apparently if I lived in Dorset i would have received the pump and the monitoring! Not where I live though.......

 

[ShyGirl]

 

[CarbsRok]

y

 

[Scarlet rose]

The defence of automatism in criminal law is most strange in relation to diabetics. If you have a hypo attack it acts as a complete defence. However, if you have a hyper attack your classed as being insane. Its utter madness.

See here:

http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Non-insane-automatism.php

http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Insanity.php

 

[cugila]

The defence of automatism in criminal law is most strange in relation to diabetics. If you have a hypo attack it acts as a complete defence. However, if you have a hyper attack your classed as being insane. Its utter madness.

See here:

http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Non-ins ... matism.php

http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Insanity.php

First of all....this isn't a 'Get out of Jail free card !'.

Whilst this site may be a useful resource nothing dictates the Law other than what are called 'Stated Cases'.......now I don't plan to trawl through all the Law Reports to find the one relating to these earlier Court decisions. Never put your faith in something as simply stated as this, you might well find that you are sadly mistaken and that the defence will not apply.

Always take Professional Legal Advice if a prosecution is being considered against you.

It is not an automatic defence if you have a hypo, it may be pleaded and put forward to the Judge and the Jury will consider the evidence. All the circumstances are considered before a decision is made. Only if it is succesfully pleaded will the defence apply and the defendant be aquitted.

Ken

 

[Karl Fenn]

I am just replying to kens advice he gives on driving licences, as a proffesional in the transport industry for over 16 years and
post graduate phot journalist I make the following reply, with all respect ken I don't think the police in the best position to
give advice on driving licences, particulary where they huge numbers of cases going through the courts for compensation for
in some cases conditions that would debar them from driving, I am sure you might agree that a comparison with the DVLA
data base and the diabetic database would confirm that very large numbers are not telling the DVLA including police, nurses
and other government workers who don't seem to want to practice what they preace. In fact one of the people who sat on the
chair of the diabetic commitee in our area has stated many have not informed the DVLA including himself, it is a proven fact
that hudge numbers of people with medical conditions not just diabetes have refused to tell the DVLA, people who in fact are
advising other people to do so, I myself held every driving licence under EU law and attended trasport colleage as an advanced
driver, in 2008 the DVLA took my class one licence and PSV after I notified them, they have now offerd me the licences back
subject to the new EU law with a yearly medical, I now as you do there are millions of drivers who have not told the DVLA
about conditions, with far more serious conditions recorded against them such as post truamatic stress, memeory loss,
paranoia, and a range of serious mental health problems to boot, these are far more serious than diabetes, and yet they have
all sliped through the net, with the apparent discrimination being amied soley at diabetics. Why Ken do you target these people,
are they just easy meat. Of course I do have regular eye checks, but not for the sake of the DVLA but rather for the sake of me,
I can't help noting just how bad some of the peoples sight is who attend these clinics, some with only one eye, and not a particulary good eye, or in some cases eye sight in both eyes that is particulary bad, I note many of them are not aware they are
required to notify the DVLA. yet alone do so, I have been in touch with the EU and establish that the unjust targeting of diabetes
could result in an application to the europen court, I beleive it would stand a good chance of sucess, in law insurance companies
are not allowed to discriminate, but in your own words you admitt they do. I would look forward to any reply from you ken, but
would point out at the end of the day, courts decide the law and not the police. Karl

 

[daisy1]

Hi Karl and welcome to the forum
Thank you for all the useful information.
This is a very old thread and Ken is no longer a Member now so you won't be getting a reply to your questions directed to him but other Members will probably reply in due course.

 

[Karl Fenn]

Hi all,

I am a type 1 diabetic and have been for 20 years. In conversation with one of my friends yesterday - whose mother is a type 1 also - we started talking about car insurance. He told me that his mum has a 3 year restricted driving licence. Now forgive me for living on a completely different planet, but in all the years I have been driving (approx eight) I have never come across this. Should I have a restricted licence???

I am really panicked about this as I know that if I should have a restricted licence then my car insurance will be null and void. I can't understand how this has never come up before. I never lie about the fact that I have diabetes....I cannot remember completing my driving licence application - should I have notified the DVLA separately of my diabetes? I have been trying to search through previous posts on this topic in the forums, but I can't find anything that answers my specific problem.

Driving regularly comes up in conversation when I attend my clinics - they know me well, know that I do not work in the immediate area and do a lot of travel with my job. However, I know that this is my responsibility and the blame lies entirely at my feet.

I am really confused how this has all passed me by....like I said I cannot remember completing my licence application, but I would NEVER (and this I can say being 100% confident) lie about my diabetes...

Can anyone offer any advice please? Where do I go from here? I expect I will need to contact the DVLA and say - 'oh wait, I am diabetic and have been for 20 years'.

Anything anyone can offer in the way of guidance would be much appreciated.

Jenni

 

[Karl Fenn]

As you know recently there has been some further developments due to international protocol, airline pilots and cabin crew will
now be able to resume work being treated with insulin, thanks to the new EU intervention many people will be able to remain in
employment longer and not suffer an automatic ban from employment for having diabetes, of course you may be aware the EU
has been looking at the governments record on discrimination regarding insurance, and recently made it illegal for companies
to discriminate against men when calculating premiums, I understand there may be further debates about discrimination in respect
of diabetics, after all it makes no sense to be told you're fit to drive only to face difficulties and discrimination by companies in
this area, although discrimination is illegal in law on this point, many people report they are being subjected to unfair and higher
premiums by compaines when trying to obtain insurance, let's hope the EU comes up with the right decision when they look into
this area of hypocritical law in the U.K. And bring an end to this unjust discrimination of diabetics once and for all. So happy flying..
Happy driving...........