Blood Pressure

xMenace

Member
Messages
15
This morning I read the schpeel about blood pressure on the front page, the page that loaded from my morning email link. It's the same old stuff, and it doesn't work.

I find it interesting how medical communities around the world cling to their evidence based advice: "we set guidelines based on the best available evidence." Yet there doesn't seem to be any evidence that sodium consumption causes HBP or that sodium reduction saves lives. If you think there is, please post it.

Do systemic sodium levels cause HBP? This is very likely, but there's a difference. Do I need to explain it? Of course I do.

Picture a dam in a small river. Water collects behind the wall. When water levels in the river rise high enough, water flows over the top of the dam. When water levels in the river drop, the water behind the dam doesn't, not right away, not until the inflow stops completely.

So the building authorities decide they want to build some homes along the river, but they need the water level lower. What's the plan? Do they divert water away from the river or do they lower the dam?

They decided to divert water away, but water still flowed in. What happened? Water levels remained the same, but less water flowed over the top. It became quite obvious very quickly that this was a failed strategy. If they wanted to build homes, they'd need to lower the dam, so they did. It worked, the homes were built, and they all washed away in a flash flood. Sorry, but sometimes you just can't compensate for government stupidity.

When we reduce our salt intake, we're reducing the rate of flow in our river, but we still have the same dam. Less sodium flows over the top, but systemic levels remain the same. We may experience less flash flooding, and this seems to account for a small reduction in BP, but it's very small, almost insignificant.

Finding expert discussion on what controls sodium levels, homeostasis, is difficult to find. Gary Taubes in "Good Calories, Bad Calories" suggested that insulin signals our kidneys to retain sodium: lower insulin, you lower the sodium dam.

BP was one of the things I measured when I adopted a lower carb lifestyle. Unfortunately I didn't keep records. I'm a lousy accountant. I was fighting the upper limits for a type 1. I routinely tested 140/80 and sometimes a little higher. My eyes were bleeding from long term retinopathy. We upped my ACE inhibitor to 15mg from 2.5mg, I quit drinking coffee, and of course I lowered my salt intake. I lowered my numbers down to roughly 130/75. Then I decided to try this radical style of eating. That was four July's ago.

I reduced carbs, restarted coffee, and forgot about sodium restriction. My BP dropped down to 125/70 range and it stayed there. My eye bleeds stopped abruptly and haven't returned. In fact, the optho can't find any damage in my eyes, besides the 4k laser blasts. A year and half ago I joined a gym. They took my BP and it was almost too low at 116/58. I saw the doc, lowered my ACE back to 2.5mg, and retested at 118/64. I tested in that range for all of 2011.

I've crept up in 2012. I have added a few carbs back into my diet and my weight has crept up slightly. These carbs are veggies and some fruit; I still outlaw grains. I recently tested 133/68.

I'm 51 years old and have been diabetic for 36.5 years.
 

nigelho

Well-Known Member
Messages
227
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Hi, This post is very interesting as I'm having trouble with BP tablets..ramipril and now losartan. I've developed lichen planus in the mouth and on the skin and the tablets I've been on for a week has shot up my Blood Sugars into the 20s so I'm having to take a lot of porcine neutral to bring the BSs down. Apart from the lichen planus I HAD bad pains in my right index finger but that stopped when I stopped the ramirpril. I've been trying to cut down on salt and carbs and I've actually stopped the BPs tablets as I trying to get rid of the lichen planus. I've have to watch my BP re: less carbs.
 

Hobs

Master
Messages
11,797
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Non-insulin injectable medication (incretin mimetics)
Dislikes
Argumenative barstifferous (new word *lol*) types who think that they know everything *wink*
As you obviously understand the body's electrochemical pathways, would it not be better to slow/block the calcium ions into the smooth muscle (blood vessels)? Yes, sodium does have an influencing factor on hypertension, but calcium does too and to a greater extent. Several Ca blocking drugs exist but not without unwanted side effects. Find a way of removing the side effects and they will be a lot more popular among patients and far more of them sticking to the prescribed dose.
 

Sid Bonkers

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,976
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Customer helplines that use recorded menus that promise to put me through to the right person but never do - and being ill. Oh, and did I mention customer helplines :)
xMenace said:
I find it interesting how medical communities around the world cling to their evidence based advice: "we set guidelines based on the best available evidence." Yet there doesn't seem to be any evidence that sodium consumption causes HBP or that sodium reduction saves lives. If you think there is, please post it.


Is there really any doubt that salt raises blood pressure?

Livestrong.com said:
When you consume excess table salt, which contains 40 percent sodium and 60 percent chloride, the sodium level in your blood rises. Sodium pulls fluid from tissues into the blood, raising the blood volume. When the blood volume increases, the pressure against the blood vessel walls increases. Your heart must pump more forcefully and blood pressure rises.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/31093 ... z2CfaIxGWT

This was the first page I found there are thousands of others :D
 

Hobs

Master
Messages
11,797
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Non-insulin injectable medication (incretin mimetics)
Dislikes
Argumenative barstifferous (new word *lol*) types who think that they know everything *wink*
I am still more bothered by calcium ions. Calcium is a major player of cardiac electromechanical events, energy metabolism and contractile function. Anyone worried about the real possibility of diabetic cardiomyopathy as a serious infliction should be more concerned with calcium rather than just the sodium ions and what they are up to.
 

witan

Well-Known Member
Messages
99
I agree Calcium (Ca) levels are very important in cell metabolism but Magnesium (Mg) is as well - serum blood electrolytes have always been focused on Sodium and Potassium (Na and K) levels and Ca and Mg not often measured.
Ca trapped in the cells can cause the blood vessels to be a lot stiffer than they should be - this can be displaced by increasing the Mg levels in the cells, simply bathing in Epsom Salts may do the trick and costs virtually nothing and has no side-effects. Mg can be a natural Calcium Channel Blocker.
A good mineral/electrolyte balance is important in the blood as well as the cells, maintaining this may be hampered by excess glucose in diabetics. All these elements have similarities and I also wonder if Mg can displace Na, as since starting on Mg supplements two weeks ago I have had a salty-taste in my mouth although I have a minimal salt in-take - no problem though with an initial reduction from 149/91 to 130/80 something never achieved on any other tablets.
In the plant world Ca can be both a vital element or a poison depending on the plant, while a lack of Mg will leave them looking yellow and droopy, choose the right balanced fertilizer and hey-presto all is well again.
 
Messages
1
People need to be aware that some medications can increase blood pressure or interfere with medications that control blood pressure.Recently, I've had that problem with the Diabetic drug, Victoza. Other than the gastric problems associated with that medication, I was unaware of that Victoza was gradually making my blood pressure medication non effective. My blood pressure remained high. The only indication I had was that I was getting headaches and had little energy. I started to take bp readings about 45 min. to an hour after taking meds when I became aware that my blood pressure was consistenlty too high. I even took extra pill to no avail. It remained high around 170/112 for a couple weeks so that I contacted my doctor. About 30 hrs. after going off the medication, my blood pressure started going down and has remained so with the bp medication. I checked the warnings about taking Victoza, and it included thyroid cancer, pancrititis, kidney and liver disease with just a slight suggestion about telling your doctor if you have high blood pressure. My point in revealing my problem is that people need to be aware of adverse effects before and during taking medication. If people don't monitor their blood sugar and/or blood pressure when starting medications it can lead to serious consequences.