Pain Relief - Drugged Drivers!

Sid Bonkers

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Ive just joined a pain relief forum as I am experiencing some nausea problems with the Bu-Trans patches I have been wearing and read a post on 'Drug Driving', and it seems it may impact on others here that are taking any strong pain relief meds especially opiates like codeine, tramadol etc.

Following the death of a young girl who was killed by a young driver high on cannabis in Croydon the girls family have petitioned that a new law (Lillian's Law) be brought in to prosecute those who drive under the influence of drugs.
http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/Adv ... story.html

Now this raises serious questions for anyone like me who currently takes prescription pain relief medication, especially where warnings are given on the packaging of said drugs "If you feel drowsy - do not drive or operate heavy machinery" a common caution on anything from day nurse to morphine. This could mean someone being tested roadside using a saliva test, perhaps following a blameless accident, would then be arrested and taken to a police station were a blood test etc etc, failure to give a specimen would also be an offence just as it is with alcohol testing.

Now from a personal point of view I feel perfectly fit to drive most of the time although on days when I do get the nausea and sickness which is common with opiates it does definitely make me feel generally 'under par' and I would choose to leave the house anyway let alone drive anywhere.

So if the proposed new law goes through it could mean a jail term for anyone found driving with strong pain killers in their blood, quite how the police and judicial system will decide who is fit to drive and who isnt is not yet clear, as it is up to the individual to make that decision at present. Now it is terrible when young lives or any lives for that matter are taken by irresponsible drivers who blatantly flaunt the law and drive under the influence of drink or drugs whether recreational or the abuse of prescription drugs which I understand is not uncommon, but the current law already allows for anyone causing death by dangerous driving to receive a sentence of up to 14 years in jail, so why the need for change? Surely it just needs the current laws to be properly policed and more importantly harsher sentences served by our judges/magistrates to anyone who drives under the influence of recreational drugs, I am quite sure that those on prescribed medication are perfectly OK to drive unless told not to by their doctor or the DVLA but they will still be caught up by this catch all new law.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/new ... -laws.html

My own pain releif has been built up steadily over 20+ years from the usual paracetamol, ibuprofen and co-codomol through tramadol, gabapintin, pregabalin, amitriptyline and codeine before being prescribed the Bu Trans patches so have built up a certain immunity to opiates over many years, so in my eyes I know I am perfectly fit to drive 99% of the time and when I do feel under par I would not drive anyway but it does worry me that this law could see me lose my licence.

With the above in mind here are some links that some members here may find useful.

Strong pain killers and driving - http://www.rowcrofthospice.org.uk/web/d ... _web-1.pdf

Info on pain relief meds - http://www.painsupport.co.uk/enewsletter/toolkit.pdf
 

minitata

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I wonder, when I first started on Morphine I could feel it affecting me. Nowadays it just makes me itchy. I went for a driving assessment while on morphine and passed okay, but would I have done if I'd taken my first/tenth dose of a strong painkiller? How can they sort this one out - glad I don't have to work it out.
 

Hobs

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Have you also informed your car insurance provider about your complete prescribed meds list? Not to do so could invalidate your policy as my broker pointed out.
 

hanadr

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I have every sympathy with people who need pain relief. I'm grateful I don't. However, I would question whether such a person involved in a road accident is totally blameless.Pain killers affect the transmission of signals along the nerves. Can they not dull the reflexes and reaction times? I don't know, but suspect it may be so.
Many accidents nowadays are thought to be caused by driver sleepiness.
Driving is a serious responsibility. A driver is in charge of a potentially lethal weapon.
My feeling is: no-one should drive unless any medication they use is KNOWN to be safe and only if they are unimpaired in any way.
Driving is not anyone's RIGHT. It's a privilege and convenience and should not be abused if it risks someone else's safety.
I walk as much as I can to get around the suburban area where I live. I find myself feeling threatened by motorists fairly often. I've been terrified a few times for the safety of my grandchildren, when I've been walking along with them.
I do drive, having had my clean license for 48 years. I've driven some long journeys too, but I'm very careful. At the moment, I'm the family's sole driver since T1 husband is in plaster to the knee treating a reluctant to heal ulcer.
Hana
yes I do hold firm views on this and don't apologise for them!
 

Sid Bonkers

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hanadr said:
I would question whether such a person involved in a road accident is totally blameless.Pain killers affect the transmission of signals along the nerves. Can they not dull the reflexes and reaction times? I don't know, but suspect it may be so.

In a word Hana , no. The way morphine and other opiates work in pain relief is completely different to when used recreationally, I have taken pain killers for years and have built up the strength slowly, no one is prescribed morphine as a first line drug only after long term use of co codamol, tramadol and codeine are opiads used without this pathway patients would be opiate naive and then it could affect them more seriously, but as minitata says after a short period of feeling slightly drowsy these drugs have no affect on driving.

But dont think it will only affect those on opiates, no, any drug that warns you not to drive or use heavy machinery if feeling drowsy could potentially see you being prosecuted if the drug is picked up after a roadside test. Something to think about when you next get a cold and reach for the night nurse?

The fact that these warnings are on certain drugs could make it hard to prove that you do not feel impaired whether you do or not.
 

Sid Bonkers

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minitata said:
Nowadays it just makes me itchy.

Oh and how eh? I seem to be constantly itching around the patches and my forearms and chest too. Seems worse in hot/warm weather.

Have you found anything that helps?

I have found that taking a Piriton Anti histamine tablet helps when it gets really bad but I dont like taking them too often. But that itch :evil:
 

izzzi

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I am also thinking that when passengers in vehicles which to their knowledge the drivers are on drugs or alcohol, should also be prosecuted. A example would be drunk passengers encouraging the drunk driver to go faster.

I also believe the warning advice on drug packets should be far more alarming.

Sadly cut backs and stupid laws makes it impossible to Police all these crimes.

Roy. :)
 

ElleDee

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I think many people will have differing views on a subject such as this, however as a driver and sufferer, and having gone through almost all of the same prescription meds as Sid . . . . . . I must say this:

I fully appreciate that driving is not seen as a right but as more of a privilege, but people who suffer do have a right to be able to enjoy these privileges in the same way that a non-prescription taking individual would. It is exactly that though, INDIVIDUAL, and each person is different, some take and deal with their meds well, others don't and to tar all with the same brush is wrong.

I have times when I really can't drive, so I have to sit for a wee while until I feel ok then make the journey to work. For me my work is a lifeline. I suffer on a day basis and if I was to list it all you would be forgiven for thinking I was a 90 odd who had a hard life . . . . . I'm only 30 and try very hard every day to get up and out and live as normal as I can, my car and my licence afford me that luxury, to lose it would be a disaster for me. I cannot walk, even if I wanted to and live too rural to rely on public transport so the thought that for the sheer amount of meds I take, if I got stopped I would be more than likely arrested is scary to say the least :-(
 

thebassist84

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This reminds me of the top gear episode when they got a Rastafarian chap to take a driving skills test whilst "medicated" and sober. The guy did better under the influence! If your bodies used to a drug, your probably safe to drive. Likewise if your bodies used to a drug and you haven't taken it, you could be a risk. I would like to see doctors asses patients for the first few weeks of starting a new drug, and sign them off as being safe when the criteria is met. Illegal drug driving should be the same as drink driving, if not tougher.

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LittleWolf

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Well said ^

I though we already treated driving under the influence of drugs (pharmaceutical or otherwise) like driving drunk (DUI)? I know chronic pain and do not drive myself, though I'd like to, but it's hard to envision someone having popped Vicodin then being involved in an accident and not getting into trouble because it was prescribed. At the same time I understand Sid explaining progression and getting used to different classes of these drugs.

Personally when I was first diagnosed with endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain (my joint and nerve pain up the legs/chest is still a mystery), after my IUD removal and every time I was admitted to hospital writhing in pain I was given Cocodamol, then tramadol then morphine which just made me violenty Ill, my chest got so tight I couldn't breathe and my heart rate went nuts. I tried to half dose the Cocodamol but the intoxicated, spaced out dizzy,'drunk' feeling I got was as distressing as the pain. I don't really know how someone. Could get used to that but some would say that about using cannabis daily and functioning.

Even still I don't think I could trust myself with anything in my system if I could be a risk to other people around me, not just myself...

It's a difficult one. Some people's jobs require them to drive. Then again plenty of accidents happen to totally sober drivers.

Ok driving is dangerous, I have come to the conclusion no one should drive XP


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Sid Bonkers

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Hi LittleWolf, I cant say I ever experienced any of the symptoms that you got from co-codamol or from the stronger pain killers I took, but the buprenorphine (Bu-Trans) patches did make me feel nauseous and light headed when I first started taking them it would always happen the day or two days after changing the patch (7 day patch) so it took me a while to figure out what was causing it.

When I did I told my GP and he prescribed me Cyclizine, a tablet which completely removes the nausea and the accompanying light headedness. I would only need them a day or two a week and over a couple of months found that I needed them less and less and now I rarely take them at all. I did take one tablet over the weekend after spending time in the garden and I think that was caused by the heat, the patches come with a warning not to apply direct heat to the patches as it increases the abortion rate making the dose stronger :***:

It wouldnt have prevented me from driving though as it comes on so slowly I get plenty of time to react. When I started to feel nauseas at the weekend I took a pill and a little over an hour later I was feeling absolutely normal again and was eating my dinner. :thumbup:
 

LittleWolf

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Sid you seem to know your body well, be really responsible and in control. I admire you for that. Some people get a little 'naughty' when they have drugs with potential for abuse available to them.

It is so difficult though because like I said a totally sober person could have an accident. I HATE alcoholism but you could even say an alcoholic who drinks daily but seems to not be drunk at all could be driving perfectly normally and something bad will happen. Same as someone who perhaps drinks a lot of chamomile tea but doesn't feel drowsy- they might have an accident and what if chamomile tea was found in their system (if they hypothetically treated chamomile tea as a drug lol)

Very very difficult one. Probably has to be assessed on a case by case basis. Sid you clearly have everything under control and if you need to drive somewhere you need to drive somewhere!

As for me having every side effect listed on the box, there is a lot of variation when it comes to sensitivity to analgesics, to the point they have apparently no effect on some people. I think there is a syndrome where suffered cannot be sedated or given anaesthetic because the amount needed to put them under or numb the pain could potentially kill them @_@ I guess I just suck. Heh.


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Stormylady

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Hi, I'm on lots of medication, tramadol, paracetamol, amytriptiline, pregablin. As others, they have built up over the years. IF I don't feel up to driving I don't. But I must say, some times I think adrenaline makes me a safer driver, as in the adrenaline causes me to have quicker reactions. Normally mid afternoon I crash, (no pun intended), but if I am out and about driving, I feel OK. I have amazed myself at the difference, and can only put it down to adrenaline.
Unless you are on insulin, if you have a motability vehicle, you don't have to inform your insurer's, because it's for disabled driver's in the first place, they accept that you have some problems. This is what I was told, To be safe I would advice every ring and finds out for sure, I suppose individual cases may vary.
 

Sid Bonkers

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LittleWolf said:
Sid you seem to know your body well, be really responsible and in control

You make me sound rather boring LittleWolf, I have had the odd irresponsible moment or two in my life :lol:

LittleWolf said:
I think there is a syndrome where suffered cannot be sedated or given anaesthetic because the amount needed to put them under or numb the pain could potentially kill them

That may be so and at the other end of the spectrum there are no doubt those who get drunk after a sniff of the barmaids apron so to speak and I am probably somewhere just past the middle as I have been told several times in my life both by dentists and a hospital consultant that I needed more anaesthetic than they thought would be necessary, I cant say if thats a good thing or not but I have rarely ever had a headache in my life yet now I require a permanent slow release patch just to function, pretty ironic really :roll:

I think we grow up and develop an inbuilt tolerance to drink and drugs and then we also have the capacity to build up that natural tolerance through exposure.

Certainly the patches I wear give me absolutely no buzz or high what so ever neither do they dull my senses, what little I have left, but they do kill a lot of the pain.

Now Ive never met anyone whos driving was affected in any way by taking a couple of paracetamol and thats pretty much what its like for me, but I can of course only speak for myself.
 

Sid Bonkers

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Stormylady said:
Hi, I'm on lots of medication, tramadol, paracetamol, amytriptiline, pregablin.


Pain is no fun at all, you have my sympathy Stormlady
 
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Sid Bonkers said:
minitata said:
Nowadays it just makes me itchy.

Oh and how eh? I seem to be constantly itching around the patches and my forearms and chest too. Seems worse in hot/warm weather.

Have you found anything that helps?

I have found that taking a Piriton Anti histamine tablet helps when it gets really bad but I dont like taking them too often. But that itch :evil:

Hi Sid, I have to take an antihistamine every day for the last 3-4 years due to 'randomly sited' itches. The feet are the worst and I used to scratch myself raw before I started taking them. I only take Ramipril but there does not appear to be a link between when I started taking that and the itching which began later, unless there was a build-up. My GP reckons that there is no problem with taking them daily. She does herself although I'm not sure what for. Maybe she should see a doctor.

Or maybe the itching is an indicator that my name is being used in vain somewhere? :shh:
 

stephiesut

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My husband is a chronic pain sufferer and is on many of those drugs stated. The drugs are worked up slowly so you dont really get t. he drowsiness etc with them once they are established. He has been driving since he was 17, he is now 42 and has never had an accident, he is a superb and ultra safe driver. If he doesn't feel fit to drive, he won't get in the car. I think if they auto blamed anyone with painkillers in their system for accidents it would be a disaster. Also many people with chronic pain conditioms rely on the car in order to get out and about as they ar e often unable to walk far. It would be condemning many disabled people to a life shut away indoors? Anyone causing an accident due to being unfit to drive should of course be prosecuted, but it is unfair to the majority who know their own bodies to be prevented from doing something they can do perfectly safely
 

Sid Bonkers

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gezzathorpe said:
Hi Sid, I have to take an antihistamine every day for the last 3-4 years due to 'randomly sited' itches. The feet are the worst and I used to scratch myself raw before I started taking them. I only take Ramipril but there does not appear to be a link between when I started taking that and the itching which began later, unless there was a build-up. My GP reckons that there is no problem with taking them daily. She does herself although I'm not sure what for. Maybe she should see a doctor.

:

I dont mind taking an occasional antihistamine tablet Gez, its normally only the day I change to a new patch or the day after, I dont know if its the adhesive on the patch or the drug itself, the adhesive must be pretty strong though as they stay on for 7 days with showering and all the other things you do in a normal week.

Interesting what you say about Ramipril though, I do take this and also have quite itchy arms which I cant remember being a problem pre diabetes and Ramipril. I did stop it a few months back for a couple of weeks but didnt notice a difference but it may not have been long enough.

I wonder if any one else suffers itchiness and is a Ramipril user?????
 

LittleWolf

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Oh great. Well it isn't just me. A lot of people on the Autistic spectrum have a large tolerance for alcohol (People have tried to get me drunk many times and I'd probably have to die first) and can need up to 4x the amount of sedatives as normal people, which isnt good if you are hypersensitive to pain like myself:

I am actually morally torn right now. I smoke cannabis but I am feeling uneasy about being sedated. I've never been under the influence of a drug that can alter consciousness to such a degree and I know a lot of people who are/were addicted to benzos. However it seems to be one of the least dangerous and shortest-acting. It will just be weird being so out of it in the surgery seeing as I've never even been drunk before.

Says the stoner scared of legal narcotics >_< I'll most likely need a joint to cope with the cannula for Midalozam going in!

I mean, when they gave me nitrous oxide in the ambulance once it didn't help the pain but made me feel more spaced than I had ever felt in my life.. Which was something I am not used to :/ And the idea of having drugs injected into me... I'll smoke them, I'll eat them.. Injecting? Err..

I cannot remember what they were called but there were two conditions listed on the paperwork given to me at the dentist's office; if I had them I would not be allowed sedation because they apparently cause a huge amount of tolerance requiring dangerous amounts of sedative or it wearing off mid procedure. Now that would be scary!

Has anyone else used benzos? I'm a little anxious about it in case you didn't notice. Heh.


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LittleWolf

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Oh and I have dermatographism- on another forum for people with that and other types of urticaria, someone concernedly pointed out to us to check out our liver function as intense itching can be caused by high serum billirubin (spelling?) levels.

I know my condition is an immune system thing. So not worried, but I see ALOT of literature saying Ramparil can damage the kidneys and live, causing itching.

I'd get that checked out seeing as those organs are already on the hitlist because of diabetes x


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