Have you cured or reversed type 2

[Geocacher]

The issue is the science, it's always easier to avoid thinking for oneself and to believe whatever we are told, isn't it? That's the real denial, it's not in discussing new research and current ideas.

Having a reason or not having a reason does nothing to change the fact that I am T2 and have been for many years, nor can it bring back four generations of my relatives who were T2 and died young. Undertanding the factors behind that does, however, mean that I can approach that situation with realistic and reliable information and deal with it in a more appropriate manner than just accepting the bare minimum and the blame from the NHS. Believing we've all 'done it to ourselves', and being burdened with that guilt, doesn't help anyone, does it? All it does is create prejudice and a situation where treatment is being denied to diabetics based on the idea that they 'did it to themselves' and they're going to bankrupt the NHS if they are all given the treatment they need.

Current research is disproving that T2 diabetics have all 'done it to themselves' and one can only hope that soon the prejudices will be tossed aside and that the focus will move from placing the blame on the diabetics to finding and fixing the causes before too many more people suffer needlessly and die prematurely.

By the way, Wikipedia is a very useful source of information if you follow the links to the citations and can judge which are credible sources and which are not.

 

[Yorksman]

For an example of the damage that unproven and incorrect science can do, look no further than the recent debacle over MMR and autism. False (but honestly believed) claims led to people not taking the correct course of action and death and disability were caused unnecessarily.

It wasn't an honestly held but ultimately flawed belief. Andrew Wakefield was the architect of proven scientific fraud propagated by a naive media who fell for it hook, line and sinker.

 

[Yorksman]

The issue is the science, it's always easier to avoid thinking for oneself and to believe whatever we are told, isn't it? That's the real denial, it's not in discussing new research and current ideas.

Quite. As you have already commented, the UK has a much lower prevalence of type 2 diabetes than opinion would have us believe. 'What do they of England know who only England know?'.

The current area of research that is highly interesting is that type 2 diabetes may be a genetic disposition to an autoimmune disorder, http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2011/april/engleman.html

Digestibility/non digestibility of just one type of sugar, lactose is only just beginning to be understood. Most of the world is classified as lactose intolerant, with varying degrees of intolerance whilst some populations are classified as lactose tolerant. The reason for this is that these populations still produce the enzyme lactase needed to digest the carbohydrate lactose. Moreover, lactase persistent populations, northern europeans, arbabic pastoralists, subsaharan cattle rearing tribes like the Tutsi, all have genetic mutations which allow lactase to be produced but in each case, different genes are involved. If that explains why certain populations can drink milk in adulthood, what is less easily explained is that in lactose intolerant populations, ie where lactase is not produced, some people can tolerate half a glass of milk whilst others get sick simply by licking an ice cream. What mechanisms are involved here? And this is just one carbohydrate, lactose. It's something we, as northern europeans, hardly ever think about because most people in northern europe, 80% - 90% can drink milk in adulthood. It's rare, but we think it is normal.

A simple correlation between BMI and DMII is a vast oversimplification. It is probably more likely to be an indication of susceptibility, in some people, but it is far clear because firstly, not all obese people have DMII by any means at all and secondly, non obese people get DMII. There is probably an indirect correlation but not a direct one.

 

[LittleWolf]

Why couldn't it be reversed if you are still producing insulin? Could it not be the same as a prediabetic person being told to lose weight and eat things that would increase their insulin sensitivity?

Saying this, I'm undiagnosed, skinny and thinking about the cider vinegar/capsaicin/cinnamon thing to increase insulin sensitivity. Guess I'll have to get back to you on whether that works out.


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[Yorksman]

Why couldn't it be reversed if you are still producing insulin? Could it not be the same as a prediabetic person being told to lose weight and eat things that would increase their insulin sensitivity?

A percentage of the beta cells have died by the time of diagnosis. They don't grow back. In that sense, it is not reversible. Improving insulin sensitivity is making most of what you have left, so that they work more effectively. However, the beta cell function normally still continues to decline and the disease gets more difficult to control in time. Obese patients who underwent baryatric surgery however showed a normalisation of the beta cell function, ie the decline was halted, not actually restored to its pre diabetic level and in that sense, the continued decline is reversible. You can stop it getting worse.

"Type 2 diabetes, the most common form of diabetes in humans, is characterized by impaired insulin secretion paralleled by a progressive decline in beta-cell function and chronic insulin resistance. Several authors have showed that in type 2 diabetes there is a reduction of islet and/or insulin-containing cell mass or volume. Regulation of the beta-cell mass appears to involve a balance of beta-cell replication and apoptosis but, at the molecular level, pancreatic beta-cell loss by apoptosis appears to play an important role in the development of insulin deficiency and the onset and/or progression of the disease. The mechanisms favoring apoptosis in type 2 diabetic pancreatic islets and new potential therapeutic approaches to prevent beta-cell death and maintain beta-cell mass are discussed." (Beta-cell apoptosis in type 2 diabetes: quantitative and functional consequences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18640587)

The CounterPoint Study, often referred to as the Newcastle Diet, sought to replicate the effect of baryatric surgery via a fasting diet and has met with a good deal of success halting the continued decline.

See also "Mechanisms of pancreatic beta-cell apoptosis in diabetes and its therapies."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20217509

"Diabetes occurs when beta-cells no longer function properly or have been destroyed. Pancreatic beta-cell death by apoptosis contributes significantly in both autoimmune type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes. Pancreatic beta-cell death can be induced by multiple stresses in both major types of diabetes."

The 'multiple stresses' include being overweight, eating the wrong foods, not enough exercise etc that you refer to. Pre diabetics are well advised to avoid these stresses but, once diagnosed, a certain number of beta cells, often cited as 50%, have been destroyed. It then becomes easier to stress the remaining beta cells. According to Taylor however, this continued decline need not simply be ameliorated as with previous therapies but alleviated, by substantial weight loss 'waking up the pancreas' to use his phraseology.

 

[Sunshine_Kisses]

LittleWolf, what cider vinegar / cinnamon / capsicum thingy? Sounds intriguing....


Diagnosed Type 2, 22nd Feb 2013
Hba1c 7.5
Three month trial of managing through diet & exercise.
Low carb, pescatarian
Trying various supplements!

 

[LittleWolf]

I know but *for some* making the most of what you have could well be enough right? If your depleting beta cells are capable of pumping out massive amounts of insulin to compensate for your resistance, if you get in there early enough I'm assuming you can reverse what is diagnosed as diabetes just as you can reverse prediabetes... (which could be only like .1mmol off a diabetes diagnosis anyway @_@ Doesnt really reflect how many of these beta cell things you have that are still working...

I guess it's different for T1s, but If you are still making plenty of insulin, it should be fine? I know people with PCOS are often just told to diet or they'll get fat and worsen their insulin resistance. (then again some are told their insulin resistance is BECAUSE they were fat?) Am I right in thinking that your pancreas basically gets 'tired out' cranking out huge levels of insulin?

The vinegar/cinnamon/capsaicin thing

http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/B ... negar-now/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18234131/

http://www.jnutbio.com/article/S0955-2863(12)00213-6/abstract



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[LittleWolf]

Sorry, the links copied funny for some reason

Vinegar

http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/cont ... 1/281.full

Cinnamon

http://www.aseanbiodiversity.info/Abstract/51010336.pdf

Capsaicin (my T1 friend alerted me to this study)

http://www.jnutbio.com/article/S0955-2863(12)00213-6/abstract


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[LittleWolf]

I have no idea why my posts are not appearing properly...

The vinegar link appears to work.

Cinnamon.

http://www.aseanbiodiversity.info/Abstract/51010336.pdf

Capsaicin (my T1 friend alerted me to this study)

http://www.jnutbio.com/article/S0955-2863(12)00213-6/abstract




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[LittleWolf]

Sorry, the links copied funny for some reason

Why does this get muddled the second I hit the Send button?

Cinnamon:

http://www.aseanbiodiversity.info/Abstract/51010336.pdf




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[LittleWolf]

I am using the app. For some reason clicking on the link that says 'sent from the Diabetes Forum App' actually sends you to the Cinammon study... I give up. Sorry for messing up the thread...


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[Yorksman]

Am I right in thinking that your pancreas basically gets 'tired out' cranking out huge levels of insulin?

Not tired but blocked. There are about 1,000,000 islets in the pancreas which produce various hormones. About 65% - 80% of these are beta cells producing insulin and amylin. Insulin resistance is only one part of diabetes, beta cell apoptosis, ie cell death, is the other part. The islets get blocked, the cells die and progressively you lose the ability to produce insulin. Increasing insulin sensitivity will make the most out of what you do produce, but it won't stop the reduction of insulin producing beta cells over time. To do that, you have to unblock the islets, which are blocked by fats.

 

[LittleWolf]

Thankyou for clarifying. God there's SO MUCH that can hinder the pancreas doing its job @_@

Sorry about the broken links. I hope anyone who can view them at least has some success slowing down the progression of their diabetes.

So there's no turning back, huh? I'm surprised if its so easy to do irreversible damage that EVERYONE doesn't have diabetes at least by the end stages of their life. The levels that damage purportedly starts at are relatively low, seeing as I can spike at 15 and hover around 8-10 after meals these days and I'm not diabetic. How many people must have their insulin producing cells dying away??!!


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[viviennem]

LittleWolf, how long after eating are you "hovering around 8 - 10"?

If it's at 2 hours or later, in your place I'd be back at the GP demanding a Glucose Tolerance Test. Those are diabetic figures, if it's 2 hours after your meal. I wouldn't be happy spiking at 15, either - I'm definitely Type 2 and the highest I've ever been is 11.2 - I just can't take those mince pies! :lol:

Do get checked - you don't have to be overweight to be diabetic.

Viv 8)

 

[Yorksman]

So there's no turning back, huh? I'm surprised if its so easy to do irreversible damage that EVERYONE doesn't have diabetes at least by the end stages of their life.

That was the conventional wisdom but it has been shown not to always be the case. You can't get back what you have lost but the blocked islets can be unblocked to prevent more cells from dying. This was first observed in very obese patients who had gastric bands fitted. Those who had diabetes started to have normalised insulin responses. There were a lot of studies which demonstrated this, eg. "Restoration of euglycemia and normal acute insulin response to glucose in obese subjects with type 2 diabetes following bariatric surgery."

In 2011 the Counterpoint Study showed that the same could be achieved through a fasting diet and their follow up paper recently published seems to confirm it. Their paper, "Population response to information on reversibility of Type 2 diabetes" concludes:

"These data demonstrate that intentional weight loss achieved at home by health-motivated individuals can reverse Type 2 diabetes. Diabetes reversal should be a goal in the management of Type 2 diabetes."

Firstly, it is not a real reversal, it is more a normalisation, getting it as good as it gets and stopping it from getting worse. Secondly, weight loss is now seen as the most important thing a diabetic can do. Your average GP just seems to want to prescribe Metformin and gives a cursary nod to, 'you should lose some weight too'.

Taylor asserts, 'It is now clear that Type 2 diabetes is caused by abnormal fat storage' caused by liver and pancreas triglycerides. As he puts it, 'at some point the liver ceases to become a fat burner and becomes a fat storer'. It is the interaction between liver and pancreas which, one this point is passed, causes the islets to start to block. As one poster on this forum mused, 'how do I reboot my pancreas?'

The results of the study are pretty encouraging:

"Self-reported weight fell from 96.7 ± 17.5 kg at baseline to 81.9 ± 14.8 kg after weight loss (P < 0.001). Self-reported fasting blood glucose levels fell from 8.3 mmol/l (5.9-33.0) to 5.5 mmol/l (4.0-10.0) after the weight loss period (P < 0.001). Diabetes reversal was considered to have occurred in 61% of the population. Reversal of diabetes was observed in 80, 63 and 53% of those with > 20, 10-20 and < 10 kg weight loss, respectively. There was a significant correlation between degree of weight loss and reported fasting glucose levels (Rs -0.38, P = 0.006). Reversal rates according to diabetes duration were: short (< 4 years) = 73%, medium (4-8 years) = 56% and long (> 8 years) = 43%."

Taking an interest in what you eat, how much you weigh and what exercise you take can have major benefits. Lots of people on this forum who were on meds have been able to come off them because they have made improvements. It's got to be worth having a serious go at it.

 

[Yorksman]

I just can't take those mince pies! :lol:

Tasty as they are, kippers are no substitute for mince pies are they?

Well, off to do my ten mins on the rower. That should unblock about 10 of those 1,000,000 islets.

'every little helps'

 

[minn]

If you look at my 'guinea pig ' thread you will see that after doing the Newcastle Diet absolutely rigorously in autumn 2011 I managed to get my blood sugars back to a normal level. 12 months later my GP did the usual MOT blood tests etc and everything was still normal. I had regained 10lb of the 2st5lb I lost on the diet and had been eating sensibly but no special diet.I don't know whether its a cure or reversal- I have a cousin with leukaemia who has been in remission for 20 years- maybe that's the best way to look at it.

 

[BrianSkye]

I just can't take those mince pies! :lol:

Tasty as they are, kippers are no substitute for mince pies are they?

Well, off to do my ten mins on the rower. That should unblock about 10 of those 1,000,000 islets.

'every little helps'

Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread but to follow up on your previous longer post I have had a recent strange reversal of my Type 2 diabetes. About 3 months ago I caught an intestinal virus which lasted nearly a month. During that time I ate practically nothing for 1.5 weeks and much less than usual for the rest of the month. Previous to this infection my BGs had been slowly increasing for 6 months until just before falling ill they had reached about 9 fasting, 15 at 2 hours after a meal with occasional spikes to 20. I took Metformin, gliclazide and Liraglutide at the maximum of 1.8mg.

Just after I cleared the infection I had lost about 10lbs in weight, welcome but not huge on a baseline of 18st 8lb! More to the point my BGs had crashed to 4.5 fasting, 7 at 2hours after a meal with no spikes above 10. It has stayed this way for 2 months now even though I have personally reduced my liraglutide to 1.2 mg/dose and put on half the weight I lost. It seems as though the fasting has kick started my pancreas and I'm sorely tempted to try some short regular fasts of maybe 2 days a week to see if I can improve it still further or reduce the medication.

Brian

 

[Yorksman]

I had regained 10lb of the 2st5lb I lost on the diet and had been eating sensibly but no special diet. I don't know whether its a cure or reversal

The Counterpoint Study observed that. All the participants gained weight when they returned to eating normally but 80% remained free of diabetes. They were all given advice on portion control but we don't know if the other two who got diabetes again followed it. Because you have lost a certain percentage of your beta cells, and we never know how many we have lost, you remain susceptible to overstressing your system but, if not stressed, it should remain normal.

I have a cousin with leukaemia who has been in remission for 20 years- maybe that's the best way to look at it.

Having a positive mental attitude is a major factor.

 

[Yorksman]

I'm sorely tempted to try some short regular fasts of maybe 2 days a week to see if I can improve it still further or reduce the medication.

You have nothing to lose but everything to gain.

The Newcastle team don't recommend a particular type of diet and the proviso is only that it should be that it aims to induce a rapid weight loss. However, they now seem to be considering as an alternative to rapid weight loss, a substantial weight loss. Either way, a shock to the system which, to use Taylor's term, 'wakes up the pancreas', seems to be key.

You have the evidence of your own personal experience. You have every reason to be confident. There are lots of positive examples posted on this forum.