Have you cured or reversed type 2

[Yorksman]

Interesting - any guidelines on what is meant by "severe" calorie restriction? I'm calorie counting and aiming for around 1250 net calories at the moment, I am coping fairly well at that level and not feeling hungry but I'm not sure I would feel so comfortable at a lower level.

Taylor's term is 'energy restriction' at a level which is meant to mimmick the effects of having a gastric band fitted. Taylor's subjects were limited to 600 kcal in Optifast drinks plus 200 kcal in nonstarchy vegetables. But it was only an 8 week diet, not a permanent thing. Since that study, the Counterpoint Study, often refered to here as the Newcastle Diet, the team have published a follow up paper based on feedback from the public.

Population response to information on reversibility of Type 2 diabetes
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/di ... ctions.pdf

The original research is on a page entitled Reversing Type 2 Diabetes, http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/di ... versal.htm

That includes a pdf file, Low Calorie Diet Programme (800 calories per day) http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/di ... ecipes.pdf

I know what you mean though. I'm losing weight at the rate of 1 Kg every 9 days now but I eat well, carefully chosen foods, but enough to make me feel that I have eaten a meal. My BGs have come down to something more like normal levels. I wonder if I can summon up the courage to go lower and shock my system into clearing any blockages. Taylor hypothesises that the important factor are the liver and triglyceride levels as it is there that they lay down the fats which block the islets. I don't know how good these triglyceride levels are represented in the triglyceride level of a venous blood sample, but I suspect that you want that to be as low as you can get it.

 

[catherinecherub]

Worth reading this article and what Professor Taylor envisages as a future treatment for a diagnosis of Type2.

"The diagnosis of Type2 may in the future be regarded as a medical emergency. The body's mechanism is being gummed up by excess fat in important organs. The concept of emergency surgery is familiar to all. We should become accustomed to the concept of emergency medical therapy - a very low calorie diet to achieve a drop in weight of 15% within weeks".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/0/21478094

Instead of being handed a diet sheet and told to come back in 3 months this might be the future response but I don't know how this would work for the 20% we are not overweight and some who are underweight. I know that the organ fat is believed to be there regardless of size but 15% is a lot to lose if you do not have a weight problem. I also wonder that if this does become the future treatment, will it be successful for established diabetics or does it only work for newly diagnosed?

 

[Thommothebear]

Thanks Yorksman.

I am quite interested in trying this, I'll have to have a chat with my Dr although I'm fairly sure she will toe the NICE line and say no, I don't think the motivation would be too much of an issue for me. My calorie intake is currently between 1250-1600 per day, and I'm burning about 3-400 of those through exercise - rowing machine, brisk walking, cycling and once the weather improves I'll get the kayak out as well, just lugging it down to the beach will burn quite a few cals.

I'm currently losing around 2lb a week, 9lb so far. My BMI is currently 28.0 but I'd like to get it down to 23 if I can. 1 month after diagnosis my BG averages are 6.1 (7days), 6.3 (14days) and 6.7(30days) - I slowly learning what causes me to spike and I'm eliminating those foods as much as I can. My HB1Ac was 61 when measured in late march,but I think the fact I had a bad chest infection that lasted almost a month will have inflated that value somewhat.

I think my biggest concern with ultra low cal would be if the total intake is only 800kc then I'd probably have to reduce the exercise levels a lot, which I am very reluctant to do, so I wonder if offsetting might be possible to achieve net cals of 600?

 

[Yorksman]

Although not related to the Counterpoint Study from Newcastle or indeed anything to do with reversing diabetes, this powerpoint presentation turned into a pdf file may provide useful information:

Diabetes and Exercise: Why Exercise Works When Insulin Does Not
http://outreach.mcb.harvard.edu/downloa ... odyear.pdf

 

[minn]

I also wonder that if this does become the future treatment, will it be successful for established diabetics or does it only work for newly diagnosed?

I had been diagnosed 7 years before I tried it and so far it has worked for me.

 

[Luna21]

Hi Don and welcome to the forum.

Despite what some people may say there is no cure for diabetes, it is however possible to control it at near non diabetic levels as I have done for the last 4 plus years.

So it is possible to reverse high blood glucose levels but it is not possible to reverse diabetes and if were to return to way I ate 5 years ago I would soon see my blood glucose (bg) levels shoot back up to double figures.

My current HbA1c is as you can see from my signature 5.1% or 32 mmol/mol in the new way of measuring the HbA1c, I have not been out of the 5%'s since diagnosis when my first HbA1c was 12.6% or 114 mmol/mol. And my bg level was recorded at the hospital at over 29 mmol/L.

Am I cured? Have I reversed my diabetes? NO but I do live a normal life and eat a normal diet albeit at a much lower portion level than I used to eat. And I dont eat white bread or pasta now and there are a few other things that I can only eat in very small portions but over all It doesnt encroach on my life at all and that my friend is the best that you can hope for.

Will my control last forever? I hope so but I dont have a crystal ball and I am a realist so I would never say never, but at this moment in time I am probably about as cured as a T2 diabetic can be

Oh and Ive lost over 5 stones in weight thats over 70lbs or about 32Kg for those of you who work in metric weights :lol:

:clap: One of the most sensible posts I have read on this forum. I totally agree, and although I'm not there yet, I have been making big progress into lowering my HbA1c (was 62, now 48) by eating much as you are I think Sid.
I have also lost 26 lbs, so at my ideal weight now, according to the BMI index, which is not always correct!
I rarely peak at more than 7 after meals, and my readings are generally in the low 5 to 6's, but I know I'm not cured, as I have tested myself with various foods and with some my blood sugars have rocketed!
I hope to keep my diabetes under control for as long as possible, but cured, no I am definitely not though I wish it were so.

 

[Yorksman]

I also wonder that if this does become the future treatment, will it be successful for established diabetics or does it only work for newly diagnosed?

The most recent publication, probably the one which prompted the BBC interview that you posted, reports:

Reversal rates according to diabetes duration were: short ( < 4 years) = 73%, medium (4 – 8 years) = 56% and long ( > 8 years) = 43%. So, the earlier the better but still not too bad if someone has left it late.

A lot of this will depend on the beta cell death rate. So someone who has had diabetes for 10 years say, but who has maintained reasonably good control will have a much better chance than someone who hasn't given it much thought. Not knowing the state of our beta cell mass is our own little personal mystery.

Simply knowing that you have a limited number of beta cells left and that you need to look after them ought to be a big motivator for any diabetic though. I went to visit a colleague in Sweden a couple of years ago, well before I got diabetes, and the man, in his mid 70s was fitter that I was, despite having had diabetes for many years. He would even eat a piece of cake, though his wife scolded him when he reached for a second piece . It was only at that point that I discovered that he had diabetes. I wouldn't have known otherwise.

 

[Thommothebear]

The vinegar/cinnamon/capsaicin thing

http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/B ... negar-now/

Interesting, my grandmother always used to use cider vinegar with honey for sore throats, and I do still as it works extremely well. As an experiment I just put 40ml of cider vinegar, 1 stevia tablet, 1/4 teaspoon of powdered cinnamon in a tumbler and topped it off with hot water, tastes not too dissimilar to a hot Toddy, quite pleasant in fact!

 

[RodBallantyne]

Whilst I fully accept that diabetes cannot be cured at present, It is possible to have HbA1c levels at non-diabetic levels and to lead a normal life in terms of what you eat and drink. With enough exercise you can get the levels down to the 5 level (in the old measurement) and can keep it there despite eating normally provided that is not a diet high in carbs. You don't have to live like a hermit or a rabbit!

Don't get hung up on measuring BS levels, stick to the HbA1c tests, they are accurate unlike those finger prick tests, and don't get confusing results at different times of the day. Non diabetics also have fluctuating BS levels despite what some think, so just stick to the official test results.

Equally don't get hung up on BMI values. They are next to useless. The whole Front Row of the All Black scrum have BMIs of over 30 so would be classified as obese but they are clearly not! The only rational measure is the body fat % which should be at 22% or less to be safe. It doesn't matter if you are 19 stones so long as your body fat % is around 15% as that Front Row is.

The one thing that is critical is the level of exercise that you take, it has to be a lot more than the advice that you usually get. It does need to be around 5 hours per week at a level that really makes you sweat and contains some resistance work as well as cardio work. You need to burn off around 600 calories each time and at least one day should contain enough resistance work to equal in excess of 16 tonnes. That will build good fat burning muscle .

If you want to lose weight then the 5:2 regime is one that I know from personal experience does work, see the Horizon programme by Dr Michael Mosley to get the idea. He also looked at High Intensity Intermittent Exercise on another Horizon, but that is not suitable unless you are fit enough to cope. I use it for 6 months in the Winter but it isn't for everybody.

 

[EllisB]

My take on the subject:

Diabetes is a progressive condition, so, with current medicine, it cannot be cured in the true sense of the word.

There are, however, several processes that combine to make us diabetic.

One is a reduction in insulin production by the pancreas, another is insulin resistance. Some T2s, when diagnosed, have a very high serum insulin concentration as the body tries to overcome the resistance.

So, if you relax your definition of 'cured' or 'reversed' slightly, it may well be possible. If someone is just above the diagnostic criteria at the time of diagnosis and carrying a few extra kilos, diet, losing weight and increased exercise levels may well have the effect of reducing the condition to Pre-Diabetes or even insulin resistance. Such a person would be able to eat a 'normal' balanced diet, containing the normal GDA of carbohydrates without worrying about the GI of their food.

If such a person were to return to their old ways and weight, their diabetes would return.

Essentially, this reversal is effectively taking the person back to the position, or as close as possible, they would have been in if they were a 'normal' weight.

This is probably only a reality for a small subset of T2s, but the approach is the same as for managing T2 by diet and lifestyle alone, the potential reversal just being an extension of the approach.

Research such as that proposed by the OP could be of use in encouraging early diagnosed T2s and those at risk of developing into T2 to reduce their weight to a healthy level, eat a healthy diet and exercise regularly, and to maintain it.

The only way to verify a reversal would be to repeat a GTT. Unfortunately, the medical profession are often blinkered in their approach to people who act on what they have been told, lose the weight, increase exercise levels and take up a healthy balanced diet. While the approach is to get all T2s on Metformin and a statin, I doubt many GPs would repeat a GTT, even if they were faced with a patient with a BMI reduced to 25 and a consistently normal HbA1c.

So I think the OP is doomed to failure in this research. Any evidence of reversal of T2 will remain anecdotal.

 

[Yorksman]

The only way to verify a reversal would be to repeat a GTT.

An OGTT is simply a measurement of the results of the insulin response mechanism, the Counterpoint study used MRI scans of the pancreas and they could demonstrate that the low fasting blood plasma levels in their study were a result of a reduction in the fatty deposits in the pancreas. That's not always the case of course. You can get lower fasting blood glucose levels by improvements to levels of insulin production, levels of insulin response, by reduction of carbohydrate intake or by exercise which are not directly due to pancreatic triglyciderides but, reducing pancreatic, and liver fats, is required to halt the decline in beta cell function.

Yes you are correct, you'd never get your GP to request an MRI scan but most of us have been diagnosed as diabetics without even an OGTT. Two FBGs or one HBA1c is enough for diagnosis which is, basically, done on the cheap.

You can pay for your own MRI scan though. Costs about £350 for an abdominal scan. Trouble is, your average GP wouldn't know what to do with it so you'd probably have to pay the same again for a specialist to interpret it for you.

 

[phoenix]

Interesting blog here.
This man used to weight 39st 13 lbs. He was diagnosed as diabetic. He has lost through diet and cycling, 70% of his weight.
This is what he writes now.

My blood sugars used to be 35mmol on an average day (7 or 8mmol being classed as ‘normal). I’d say within 12 months of cycling I was down to around 10mmol on average (now running off to get tester) and as of this morning I am 5mmol (normal for early mornings).

My GP said it was all weight-related, and around nine months ago told me he was happy to no longer call me ‘diabetic’ – he suggested I get tested every now and again (hence the home test kit). High blood-pressure: I don’t have the numbers to hand but that is also back to normal, and no medication.

http://39stonecyclist.com/about/

With all the caveats written by SId and others, I would say that he's certainly reversed his D for the time being.

 

[lrw60]

My ignorance of the subject is still great. EllisB seems to think that for some type 2s a reduction in weight could lead to a loss of diabetes. That is what has happened to me. I can now eat virtually what I want with no diabetes side effects. So, for me and probably some others, the diabetes was brought on by our lifestyle. Over eating, too much high carb high sugar foods and certainly for me, no exercise. I was a very hard working builder for most of my life. You might think that was exercise enough, but I was using muscles that were used to doing the work, it wasn't a 'workout'. I am 100% certain that if I got back into old habits then as my weight went up my diabetes would return. I have already admitted my ignorance concerning diabetes, so the next question might seem childish. If a person who has non weight related diabetes, those with damaged or underperforming pancreas, could they reverse their diabetes, or at least reduce it, by cutting out ALL foods with any significant carbohydrate? I realize how simple this must sound and I appologize to anyone I might offend. Diabetes really is something that is both simple and complex at the same time.
Lee.

 

[Yorksman]

@ lrw60

Yes, the pre diabetes stage, when the insulin response function starts to become impaired can be completely reversed by losing weight. The process of the beta cells dying has not yet begun. There is a tipping point however and that is when the islets become blocked with enough fat, the beta cells start to die. Many people don't know they have a prediabetes stage and only get diganosed with diabetes once the process has begun. Some people like myself are lucky because we get tested for blood regularly and the sudden rise in FBG levels tells the GP to send you off for an HBA1c. Others can go for a long time without even knowing that they have diabetes. Knowing early means you can make the necessary diet adjustments to limit the amount of initial damage. If you don't know and carry on as before, you do more damage. You have about 1,000,000 islets in your pancreas of which 65% - 80% are beta cells producing insulin.

At the time of diagnosis you will have dead beta cells, beta cells which are impaired due to blocked islets and good beta cells in clear islets. Those beta cells which are impaired will die. They will die at a quick rate if your BG levels remain high and more slowly if the BG levels are low. The statistics are very bad on this as it is only recently that the processes are beginning to be understood. Typically, the stats say that 50% of the beta cells are dead by the time of diagnosis but that's only because in some patients it is as few as 20% and in others it is as high as 80%. How long your remaining beta cells will last is also a bad statistic. Often quoted is the figure 10 years until insulin is required to control it. But, that's probably because so many people have had bad advice in the past. Bad advice on carbohydrates, not enough emphasis on weight loss and not much at all on exercise. The standard NHS response at diagnosis seems to be 'it's official, you have diabetes, takes this metformin and these statins, watch what you eat, try and take some exercise and get used to it.' Plenty of people seem to manage without insulin for a very long time, but they all seem to be careful and determined to look after themselves.

Those that want to stop the process of decline have a difficult job because they have to lose fat in a highly targetted way. Anyone who has felt OK about their shape but has wanted to lose a little off their buttocks, or belly, or thigh etc knows how hard it is to target weight loss in a specific area. So, the best that science has come up with is either get a gastric band fitted or start fasting. It's rather like firing a blunderbuss at a paper target. It does seem to work though. It unblocks those blocked islets and stops more beta cells from dying but what it cannot do is bring the dead ones back to life. The biggest unknown that we face is that we don't know how many have died off, how many are impaired and how many remain OK.

 

[Luna21]

Great information, Yorksman, thank you. :thumbup:

 

[CRAZYRED]

Hi, I don't know if I have actually cured my diabetes (type2), because I'm not completely sure you can, but the last time I had my my suger, glucos levels & every thing else tested, my suger/ glucose levels were down to just below the line they would say you were diabetic or get you tested for it & the year before (which was when I 1st was toold I was a diabetic) was almost double that ( my other levels were down has well). I did that with out tablets (I refused to go on them(I wanted to try without first)) & I didn't go on any really strict diet, & I relaxed that that has well after all my visit to the diabetes nurse in the 1st 6 months, I just tried to not have too much sugar a little bit a day, but never pigged out on it (or rarely anyway) & tried to eat a bit more healthy & made sure I had my 5 a day. the main difference I did with my diet was cut down on all the sugarery & sweet stuff I us to eat, I stopped snacking on sweets & biscuits while watching TV & swapped my sugarry drinks to the diet or sugar free versions , ate more fruit & excersised more.
hope yours goes well has well.
sometimes I wounder if my sugar levels were up a lot, because I had lost my great uncle not long before I was 1st told I was properly diabetic & was going though the task of clearing his flat etc.

 

[LittleWolf]

LittleWolf, how long after eating are you "hovering around 8 - 10"?

If it's at 2 hours or later, in your place I'd be back at the GP demanding a Glucose Tolerance Test. Those are diabetic figures, if it's 2 hours after your meal. I wouldn't be happy spiking at 15, either - I'm definitely Type 2 and the highest I've ever been is 11.2 - I just can't take those mince pies! :lol:

Do get checked - you don't have to be overweight to be diabetic.

Viv 8)

Hey Vivienne x

Those are my numbers after 2 hours. Last night my 2 hour reading was 12.6, this morning fasting was 9.4 I think came down to 6.7 (more usual for me) before lunch then after dinner today it was 10.2.

I have been to the doctors office trying to get a conclusive diagnosis or a root cause/reason of a myriad of symptoms for 7 years. I asked 3 GPs and a receptionist for a GTT and they said there's no way, I don't need one, who told you to go requesting such a test etc etc like I'm crazy.

Yorksman deserve a medal, he shares so much wisdom with everyone!!!


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[Yorksman]

Those are my numbers after 2 hours. Last night my 2 hour reading was 12.6, this morning fasting was 9.4 I think came down to 6.7 (more usual for me) before lunch then after dinner today it was 10.2.

I have been to the doctors office trying to get a conclusive diagnosis or a root cause/reason of a myriad of symptoms for 7 years. I asked 3 GPs and a receptionist for a GTT and they said there's no way, I don't need one, who told you to go requesting such a test etc etc like I'm crazy.

Yorksman deserve a medal, he shares so much wisdom with everyone!!!

Thanks but like everyone else I'm learning as I go along. I have the time to read and just try to paraphrase what I do read. I make mistakes and oversimplify things. It's sad that people don't seem to have time anymore.

A fasting blood glucose reading of 9.8 was enough for my GP to send me off for a HBA1c and I really do not see why your GP doesn't do the same. An OGTT isn't necessary, in fact it is a lot of hanging about at the hospital, but an HBA1c test would simply be a common sense step.

According to NICE, the cost of an HbA1c test is £4.04 and a glucose tolerance test is £7.48

(http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/1 ... /56812.pdf page 5)

so you could try and embarass them and suggest that if your health is not worth £7.58 on a GTT, perhaps they would be prepared to spend £4.04 on your behalf for a HBA1c. Or you could put your request in writing, reminding them of the details of some of your high levels and asking them to respond with an explanation why they do not think it is necessary for you to have an HBA1c.

 

[Anonymous]

I am very keen to talk to people who have actually reversed or 'cured' type 2 diabetes. I am doing a study of the possibility of the potential to use diet or any other methods.
I would be hugely grateful to anyone who will talk to me about their success or otherwise.
I am a former Senior Research Fellow and now I am diabetic myself.
Many thanks.
Don

I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes as the result of a 'lucozade' test (even more horrible than Coca Cola!) which I assume, at the time, around 5 years ago, was a valid test. Why, then, can't the same test be done on people who think they have been cured or reversed Type 2? It's cheap, since the sufferer has to buy the lucozade, and should be a safe test for those who believe or have been told they are cured of or have reversed Type 2. Perhaps it might give a more definite answer than speculation? What do others think?

 

[Superchip]

Reversed diabetes ? HA ! total poppycock ! the land of the terminally bewildered awaits you all !
So maybe you can fix a malfunctioning pancreas ? well done ! For how long ? Come on !
What about a failing heart, perhaps you can fix that too ?
TRUST me I have BOTH conditions, and if fixing was easy we'd all be at it ! Trust the surgeons - They KNOW what they are doing! gp's just guess on what they are told to say, check with dr briffa, smart man........
This isn't aimed at anybody in particular, just the idea that the medics ( god bless them !, have signally failed at every turn to come up witha a CURE-ALL !, well done and WELL paid them ! ) waste of time and space ! all their efforts are pointless............

Well that's about it buddies ! keep taking the poison, and washing down with a bloody great glass of the Russian antidote !


I would definitely be interested in some well meaning and intelligent responses........Please !

Superchip