High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horizon)

[Yorksman]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Marr is a fool. He was not doing HIIT, but prolonged high intensity training. The essence of HIIT is short (20 second) bursts of high intensity exercise.

Where does Marr say he was doing anything other than short bursts?

People can and do get strokes without doing any exercise at all. Blood vessels rupture because of pre-existing weaknesses in the wall so whether he is correct to blame the exercise is an entirely different matter. He did have two previous mini strokes which were unrelated.

 

[Mr Happy]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Hmmm, maybe weight is the wrong measure then - lets use the age-old muscle weighs more than fat. I've been excercising again (as a concerted effort) for about 4 months and gained weight but dropped a dress size (oops I mean lost about 3 inches off my waist).

I go for a minimum of 40mins excercise 5 times a week, swimming or cycling mostly and try to reduce carbs with evening meals - seeming to work. I've never been majorly over-weight, just carried a tummy and this is actually the hardest bit to shift. Throwing some sit ups, planks etc in is helping but the rest of me is trimmer/toned, the belly is lagging behind! There again, injecting in fat is much less painful than muscle...

 

[Yorksman]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Cyclists, such as Bradley Wiggins, who have very low levels of body fat, train early in the morning before breakfast so they are running on fat reserves.

The son of a colleague of mine is a keen cyclist and competes against the likes of Wiggins, though Wiggins sees it more as a training run. Tim had a crash in which he got a very deep cut. He was taken to A&E who had to clean everything out and during the process had a good look at what was going on under the skin so to speak. 'I have never seen anyone with no fat whatsoever' was the doctor's remark, 'there's just nothing here. No deposits at all'.

The lads don't half tuck into their burgers and chips in the riders' canteens. Whole pizzas just as a snack. All burned off like putting a match to paper. But they do it all year. When not road racing it's indoor track racing and in winter it's cross country, cyclo-cross.

You can see here why they are so fit:

2010 Three-Peaks Cyclo-Cross http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQmVqxVJvao

 

[stuffedolive]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Yorkman,
excellent film - didn't they have a nice day for it. Not quite Wiggins territory but a good indication of what a good fat-busting bout of exercise looks like.
However, even years of this sort of training regime doesn't necessarily prevent diabetes. As an average club cyclist I put in 15 years of training: each week was: 100-130 commuter miles on the bike, 2 circuit training sessions, 2 weights sessions, midweek evening race (45miles total including the ride out to it), Saturday race 25-50miles, Sunday clubrun/audax (60-200miles depending on time of year). I ate like a horse, anything I could lay my hands on went down my throat!
5 years after I stopped this, just riding 30 miles a week instead and running occasionally, but having put on 10kgs, I was diagnosed DB - I thought... that's just not fair!

 

[Robinredbreast]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

I remember watching this programme and found it very interesting. I like cycling, not as a sport, just being out in the fresh air looking around at different things, but I haven't been on the bike since last year, my left knee and left ankle are a problem and now the right knee is catching up :x I still walk alot, but I miss cycling and I could not do any HIT, as joints/muscles are getting more painful each week, I need a diagnosis..............sooner rather than later.

Best wishes RRB

 

[LittleGreyCat]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

<Snip>

I would have previously thought this advice to be 100% sound - certainly seems 100% logical - however I've been 'doing a bit more' and a bit more, and a bit more... but still not lost a single lb.

Prior to my diagnosis I would guess I was probably eating three times the amount of carbs I am eating now per day (I don't eat meat, so relied mostly on grains and veggies, plus had a sweet tooth so overall very carb heavy) plus didn't do any form of intensity exercise whatsoever - I practiced yoga regularly but that was about it.

So I have cut down on carbs, lowered calories and increased exercise and still nothing - which, having read *so many* posts on here from people either cutting down carbs or increasing their exercise and the weight just falling off, makes me think there must be some sort of metabolism issue at play for me... thus I'm thinking I need to do something to kickstart it in some way (as I'm guessing you're correctly thinking too stuffed olive) - but I don't know how to go about doing that, as what I've tried so far hasn't worked - so it's a process of trial and elimination... I was hoping HiT might do it, but it seems the replies think not... I know 5:2 is another option; I just have some concerns there as I read it can be detrimental to women who have yet to have children as the fasting can affect their fertility rates... as a woman who would like to have children still, that's a bit of a worry - but equally I know I need to shift the belly fat, so... more research and thinking on my part needed I guess! :crazy:

Have any of your measurements changed?

If you have upped your exercise then it is likely that you are putting on muscle and taking off fat, which can make you heavier in at least the short term.

You can normally detect this by checking waist measurement, and looking at places like your thighs and bum to see if the shape has changed - bit less wobble, bit more definition

I looked up fertility and fasting and the reference source seems to be....errrrr......the Daily Express.
Most other references are debunking the report.
http://www.52fastdiet.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=974

All very confusing, but the main downside seemed to be that fasting cut out your required daily intake of protein.
Which confuses me, because eating 600 kcals a day is NOT fasting! :evil:
In my case, on my low calorie days I eat mainly protein because that is the way to fill yourself up when not eating a lot.

On the fast weight loss - on 5:2 I lost 6 lbs in the first week.
Then I put 3 back on (but my buns are now significantly more like steel than jelly) and it is starting to come back off again.

So I would persevere, and if you don't start shifting the weight in the next few weeks then cut back your calorie target a bit and see how it goes.

Oh, and real cyclists do HIIT all the time - it is called hills. :lol:

Cheers


LGC

 

[Yorksman]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

5 years after I stopped this, just riding 30 miles a week instead and running occasionally, but having put on 10kgs, I was diagnosed DB - I thought... that's just not fair!

I can imagine. It seems tough. It's not that bad. I put on 50 kg after my heart thingy and had no diabetes.

Time came when I felt I should do something about it and I decided firstly give up smoking and secondly start losing weight.

I gave up smoking and got diabetes.

Life's like that

 

[LittleGreyCat]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

5 years after I stopped this, just riding 30 miles a week instead and running occasionally, but having put on 10kgs, I was diagnosed DB - I thought... that's just not fair!

I can imagine. It seems tough. It's not that bad. I put on 50 kg after my heart thingy and had no diabetes.

Time came when I felt I should do something about it and I decided firstly give up smoking and secondly start losing weight.

I gave up smoking and got diabetes.

Life's like that

To join in with the "It's not fair" brigade

Some people become diabetic at least partly due to being obese or morbidly obese with consequent insulin resistance.
If they lose a significant amount of weight then they stand a good chance of reversing most of the symptoms, and in some cases can revert to being apparently non-diabetic.

Those of us who were normal weight, or merely a bit over weight, don't really have that option to improve our chances.
When we become diabetic is is more likely to be due to a greater amount of loss of pancreatic function, possibly tied to genetics, with less chance of a major reversal without an enormously stringent diet and lifestyle change.

So if you are average weight, eat a good diet, and exercise more that the average person and you are still diabetic then it patently isn't fair!
In fact, I want my money back!! :!:

[Not mentioning stress, seriously high sugar and sweet consumption over decades, carb addiction etc. of course.]

Cheers

LGC

 

[Yorksman]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Those of us who were normal weight, or merely a bit over weight, don't really have that option to improve our chances. When we become diabetic is is more likely to be due to a greater amount of loss of pancreatic function, possibly tied to genetics, with less chance of a major reversal without an enormously stringent diet and lifestyle change.

Even type 2 DM is increasingly being seen as an autoimmune disorder rather than a metabolic disorder with an, as yet, undefined tipping point.

http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2011/april/engleman.html

The genes involved are many with 18 regions for type 1 alone, only 1 of which has been extensively studied. Who knows what the situation will be for type 2.

Michael Mosley is worried about getting type 2 diabetes, yet he is thin, at least to look at. Scans however show that he has high levels of intra organ fats.

I went to a wedding over the weekend where the poor groom has a genetic autoimmune disorder known as Guillain–Barré syndrome, or Landry's paralysis. It's an acute polyneuropathy and he is in almost constant pain. Genetics really is game of chance.

 

[Luna21]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

I'm convinced that some cases of type 2 diabetes are linked to an auto-immune disease; even my doc thinks there is likely to be a link, although there isn't enough definitive research to back this up yet.

I have an auto-immune arthritis, which due to the medication I have to take to control it, led to high liver enzyme levels, which then led to a fatty liver, then a thyroid problem, and now diabetes. I'm sure it's all linked in some way, as my body is attacking healthy cells throughout my body.

Diabetes is still one of those 'unknown' diseases in which there seems to be no one reason why we get it, apart from perhaps the type 1's.

Back to the exercise regime though.....surely it's better for the majority of us to attempt to get fitter and healthier through more 'gentle' or rounded exercises, ie walking,cycling swimming etc, then expecting huge results from such intensive, short-term 'fixes'? Goodness knows what muscles I would wreck trying that kind of extreme exercise! :crazy:

Plus, it's nice to get outside, enjoy the weather, the occasional sunshine 8) and getting out and about meeting people and socialising. Even if you are only walking the dog, you can enjoy the time spent outside and the 'feel good' factor of knowing you are doing something to keep fit.
Then again, I'm past the half-centurynow so maybe younger folks are keener! :thumbup:

 

[Yorksman]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Back to the exercise regime though.....surely it's better for the majority of us to attempt to get fitter and healthier through more 'gentle' or rounded exercises, ie walking,cycling swimming etc, then expecting huge results from such intensive, short-term 'fixes'?

I guess you didn't see my suggestion to take up drumming

It looks fun!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Pgxu4M6io

 

[smcc]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Marr is a fool. He was not doing HIIT, but prolonged high intensity training. The essence of HIIT is short (20 second) bursts of high intensity exercise.

Where does Marr say he was doing anything other than short bursts?

People can and do get strokes without doing any exercise at all. Blood vessels rupture because of pre-existing weaknesses in the wall so whether he is correct to blame the exercise is an entirely different matter. He did have two previous mini strokes which were unrelated.

"Well I went onto a rowing machine and gave it everything I had, and had a strange feeling afterwards – a blinding headache, and flashes of light – served out the family meal, went to bed, woke up the next morning lying on the floor unable to move."

At no point does he say that he was limiting his HIIT to 20 second bursts. I have seen it suggested on a medical forum that his sessions of HIIT were much longer than this.

I have to agree that the exercise was only a precipitating factor as he had pre-existing cerebrovascular disease as evidenced by his previous TIAs, which he chose to ignore.

 

[Yorksman]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

"Well I went onto a rowing machine and gave it everything I had, and had a strange feeling afterwards – a blinding headache, and flashes of light – served out the family meal, went to bed, woke up the next morning lying on the floor unable to move."

He prefaces it though with the result that he gives it a completely different meaning to the way you have interpreted it, immediately before the sentance you that quote ,which by the way gives no indication of the duration of exercise, only of the intensity of exercise.

He is reported as saying in the interview:

"Marr said he had followed the advice to "take very intensive exercise in short bursts – and that's the way to health … I went on a rowing machine and gave it everything I had, and had a strange feeling afterwards ...".

It gives a completey different meaning to your quote or your claim of "prolonged high intensity training".

I have seen it suggested on a medical forum that his sessions of HIIT were much longer than this.

You can see what Andrew Marr says for himself in the interview here http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -dangerous which is the source of my quote. I don't know if where you got your quote from but it it omits the 'in short bursts' element and no where does he say 'prolonged'.

his previous TIAs, which he chose to ignore.

How could he ignore that which he was previously unaware of?

 

[mo1905]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Andrew Marr just happened to be on a rower when it happened. Ticking time bomb. He'd had warnings, it was inevitable. HIIT is still a useful tool, with proper warm up and warm down. My fear is this story may deter others from hard exercise. There will always be injuries etc but the benefits far outweigh the cons. !


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[smcc]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

How could he ignore that which he was previously unaware of?

I find it hard to believe that he had had to previous symptom-free strokes. It is much more likel that, because of his busy lifestyle, he chose to ignore what may have been minor symptoms. Had he consulted his doctor he might have avoided his major stroke.

 

[Yorksman]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Had he consulted his doctor he might have avoided his major stroke.

If he had known about it and if his GP had done something about it.

Only 1/3rd of people who have had transient ischaemic attacks get treatment.

"The Royal College of Physicians and Vascular Society found just a third of 3,000 patients had the op by the two-week deadline, and many did not get it. "

"Lack of GP referral, hospital staff and equipment were all highlighted as key problems."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10713946

You seem to be determined to push the blame onto Andrew Marr. Do you blame type 2 diabetics in the same way?

 

[Yorksman]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

Andrew Marr just happened to be on a rower when it happened. Ticking time bomb.

My point exactly and clearly demonstrated by the fact that some unucky women suffer strokes as a result of the effort in childbirth.

 

[Sunshine_Kisses]

Re: High Intensity Training (HIT) - Dr Michael Mosley (Horiz

... I know 5:2 is another option; I just have some concerns there as I read it can be detrimental to women who have yet to have children as the fasting can affect their fertility rates... as a woman who would like to have children still, that's a bit of a worry - but equally I know I need to shift the belly fat, so... more research and thinking on my part needed I guess! :crazy:

Have any of your measurements changed?

If you have upped your exercise then it is likely that you are putting on muscle and taking off fat, which can make you heavier in at least the short term.

You can normally detect this by checking waist measurement, and looking at places like your thighs and bum to see if the shape has changed - bit less wobble, bit more definition

I looked up fertility and fasting and the reference source seems to be....errrrr......the Daily Express.
Most other references are debunking the report.
http://www.52fastdiet.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=974

All very confusing, but the main downside seemed to be that fasting cut out your required daily intake of protein.
Which confuses me, because eating 600 kcals a day is NOT fasting! :evil:
In my case, on my low calorie days I eat mainly protein because that is the way to fill yourself up when not eating a lot.

On the fast weight loss - on 5:2 I lost 6 lbs in the first week.
Then I put 3 back on (but my buns are now significantly more like steel than jelly) and it is starting to come back off again.

So I would persevere, and if you don't start shifting the weight in the next few weeks then cut back your calorie target a bit and see how it goes.

Oh, and real cyclists do HIIT all the time - it is called hills. :lol:

Cheers


LGC

Hey LGC - I somehow missed this reply! Haha, I definitely didn't read the info about 5:2 in the Daily Express :lol:

It was mostly from here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/women-an ... z2SyuryoRc

Though I've read a few other sources that at the moment make me cautious about trying it.... it's so tricky trying to balance out what's best for diabetes v's what may be causing other 'undesirable' health side effects {sigh}.

On the plus side though, although I definitely wasn't losing inches or lbs till very recently, I now am finally losing a little on both counts - hoorah!! As I'm throwing *everything* at it (supplements, diet, exercise etc) then I'm not sure what the needle in the haystack is that has *finally* caused me to lose a little weight this last week, but it's taken three months of constant reading and tweaking to get here so I'm not gonna worry about the 'why's' too much right now ;-)

My *slight* concern is that I think I'm probably now in ketosis - I'm certainly eating more protein and less carbs than I ever have in my life - and like 5:2, know theres loads of different perspectives on how healthy that is for you longer term... but I guess all I can do it test and mesure as I go along - and for now my blood sugar readings are the best they've been - so on that score I'm v happy!

 

[RodBallantyne]

There is a lot of ill informed comment about HIIT and the effects on weight loss and insulin resistance. For an academic study try looking at www.hindawi.com/journals/jobes/2011/868305 which is a paper by Stephen Boucher from the Faculty of Medicine, University of New South Wales. It was published in The Journal of Obesity in 2011. It looked at 14 different pieces of research and found that HIIT did reduce body weight in nearly all cases. The main point to notice is that there has to be a big difference between the High Intensity work and the recovery work. The Wingate Test used 30 seconds High Intensity and 4 minutes Recovery, Tabata used 20 seconds HI and 2 minutes Recovery. Dr Moseley was using something close to the Tabata regime.
But the thing which is not made clear to most people is the level of intensity of the HI bit. Even this site speaks of 2 or 3 minutes Hi plus a short recovery period, which is nonsense, as you cannot do 2 or 3 minutes of HI if it is really HI. Hi is sprinting either on a bike or on a treadmill, or on a track. If you think that you can sprint for 2 or 3 minutes then you are kidding yourself! Sprinting is what you do for 100 or 200 metres, even a 400 metre race is just below sprinting speed , and so you are talking about durations of under 30 seconds. The other element is the level of effort involved, which means the resistance level that you set on the bike if you are doing it in the gym. The way to do what Dr Moseley did is to set the resistance at a high level for the HI bit and lower it again for the Recovery bit, not leave it at some low level for the whole period. I have used HIIT ever since I saw his Horizon programme ( not all the time but twice a year for 3 months each time) and I am currently setting the resistance at 300 watts for the HIIT part and 70 watts for the recovery, I sprint the 300 watts for 20 seconds at 150 RPM and recover for 2 minutes at 70 watts and 80 RPM. I do three sets of this work with a recovery at the end to make 10 minutes each time. I then do Steady State work on the treadmill or resistance work on the weights for a further 45 to 50 minutes. I do this regime 4 days/week with a Spinning Class on the 5th day.
My weight came down from 80kg to 70kg but has gone up to 73kg as the muscle mass has increased. I use around my body weight for the leg lifts and abdominal exercises and twice my body weight for the leg thrusts which is around what I used to do 50 years ago so my muscle mass has recovered significantly despite a working life which was sedentary. I am not saying that I can run as fast as I did when I last competed in1966 but my body weight and strength levels are not far off those days.
My blood sugar levels have been around the 5 to 5.5 level for the past 3 years having come down from a level of 9.5 when diagnosed with T2. The sensible thing to do is what Michael Moseley has done which is combine the HIIT with the 5:2 diet, that will ensure the weight loss and the improvement in Insulin Resistance.

 

[Yorksman]

Sports like soccer or tennis which involve a long period of activity but interspersed with a series of short sprints are, in my opinion, better suited than steady pace activities such as jogging. I suppose shuttle runs were an early form of HIT. All the cross country runners dropped out at a very early stage.