Driving licence suspension

[thedoctor123]

Hi All,
I'm new to this so forgive me if it is a question that has been asked before.
My father has Type 1 diabetes and has had his driving licence suspended (he surrendered it) by the DVLA as he has had two Hypos (one in October and one in November).
He has since been on a course on how to control his diabetes better (something to do with calculating how much insulin to take according to what he eats) and his bloods sugar levels have never been so good and at a constant level.
He has however been told by the DVLA on the phone that he cannot apply for his licence to be reinstated until 8 weeks before the anniversary of the first Hypo which would mean around August. From doing some reading on the Internet on the DVLA and Diabetes UK I understand it that if your doctor believes you are safe to drive you can reapply for your licence.

Can someone help me to understand the rules as I can't find anywhere where it says he cannot reapply for his licence but he is a bit of a defeatist and has just accepted it. He relies on his licence for work and lives around 200 miles from any family or friends so will affect him badly if he loses his job over this.

Many thanks

Dan

 

[sw11bloke]

Did the two hypos require medical assistance or assistance from a 3rd party?

Hypos are normal for any diabetic who has good control. If the DVLA are suspending a licence after your dad having two normal hypos where he treated himself, then I would take this matter further as the DVLA are taking this too far.

I am currently awaiting my renewal which has now taken almost 4 months!

 

[thedoctor123]

He did need assistance on both occasions, he was taken to hospital both times.
He notified the DVLA himself and surrendered his licence rather than had it suspended by them.

 

[hanadr]

If your Dad's doctor thinks he's safe to drive, ask for help from Diabetes UK's advocacy service. they can get some things done that no-one else can
Hana

 

[sw11bloke]

yeah...the DVLA are suspending all licences now if you or your Dr state that you had a hypo requiring assistance. It relates to a new regulation they passed in 2012.

 

[phoenix]

Sorry but I think that what your father has been told is correct .
To reapply for a licence ,the person has to be able to fulfil the medical standards for the issue of the licence
https://www.gov.uk/reapply-driving-lice ... -condition

These standards for diabetes include the statements that a person
•Must have awareness of hypoglycaemia.
•Must not have had more than one episode of hypoglycaemia requiring the assistance of another person in the preceding twelve months

http://www.npc.nhs.uk/rapidreview/?p=4937

The form he would have to fill in (DIAB1) asks quite specifically:
Have you had more than one episode of severe hypoglycaemia (requiring assistance from another person)
in the last 12 months? Do not count episodes where you were given help but could have helped yourself.

Unfortunately, he won't be able to say no to this until October.

Sorry, of course you can pursue it and you might find a loophole ( appeal to a magistrates court as mentioned on DUK) but somehow I think the law is now very much more explicit than it was in the past.
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... aken-away/

Every diabetic has hypo's. They are being discriminatory and theres very little we can do unless we can get Diabetes UK to chenge this new regulation

I don't think every diabetic has hypos that need assistance. If you need assistance then are you fit to drive?

It's a bit off topic but If you think the UK is being discriminatory with their very cut and dried interpretation of the rules then don't move across the channel.
Any new applicant for a licence with insulin treated diabetes has to present themselves to a medical tribunal comprising a couple of docs who don't necessarily know anything about D and certainly don't know the person. BG records and monitors are examined, hypos questioned (again not more than one that needs help allowed) The person questioned has to show an understanding of the dangers of hypos and demonstrate they are hypo aware ( 'too many' hypos on meter might suggest a lack of awareness for example) They might get a licence for 6 months-3 years but there isn't any clear info on what decisions are based on (and a lot of speculation that it varies from area to area) When the licence expires they have to go the whole thing again (and pay for the privilege each time).
Drivers that already have a licence when they start insulin have for the moment escaped. (now that's discriminatory) However, if involved in an accident or caught with more than a minor driving infraction the gendarmes can report them to the tribunal and then they get stuck into the system for the rest of their driving life.

 

[VickiT11979]

I was at a lecture about diabetes & driving given by a diabetes consultant working at the Queen Eluzabeth Hospital in Gateshead, and he stated that a study from a few years ago showed that 50% of type 1 diabetics who've had the disease from 20-30 years have some degree of hypo unawareness - by which he means we don't pick up every single time our BG drops to 3.9 or less straight away.

He also gave DVLA figures stating that there are 5 fatal hypo related RTAs every year and 25-30 severe hypo related RTAs per MONTH, that's from figures supplied by the police.
Those figures are vastly increased from 10years ago, not clear if that's because it's more recognised & reported though.
That's why the DVLA are so paranoid about it.

And if you have any degree of hypo unawareness you are supposed to inform the DVLA, and then you may be subject to more restricted license & if you have 1 hypo needing assistance you have to inform them & lose your license for a year.

 

[iHs]

He also gave DVLA figures stating that there are 5 fatal hypo related RTAs every year and 25-30 severe hypo related RTAs per MONTH, that's from figures supplied by the police.
Those figures are vastly increased from 10years ago, not clear if that's because it's more recognised & reported though.
That's why the DVLA are so paranoid about it.

And if you have any degree of hypo unawareness you are supposed to inform the DVLA, and then you may be subject to more restricted license & if you have 1 hypo needing assistance you have to inform them & lose your license for a year.

This is as I suspected..... bolus/basal insulin analogue style only became available in the UK approx from 2002 onwards and just look at the amount of msgs left on this forum alone where people have reported having trouble with hypos and getting their bg levels sorted out through finding out about carb counting using an insulin to carb ratio Grrrrrrrrr :evil:

Tell a lie.... Humalog bolus insulin was available in the UK in the 90's but the other analogues became available from 2002.

 

[Bereaved]

yeah...the DVLA are suspending all licences now if you or your Dr state that you had a hypo requiring assistance. It relates to a new regulation they passed in 2012.

One thing I have learned: Never tell your diabetic specialist or GP if you have a bad hypo requiring assistance. They will be forced to divulge this information to the DVLA. Every diabetic has hypo's. They are being discriminatory and theres very little we can do unless we can get Diabetes UK to chenge this new regulation.

I cannot believe you would advise any one not to take having a hypoglcaemic attack seriously. My son was killed by a diabetic driver who had become complacent with checking his blood sugar levels. This was a preventable act and one that every driver who has diabetes will have signed a declaration on the DVLA DIAB 1 form that they will check their levels before and during driving

 

[sw11bloke]

Bereaved...thats your interpretation. Ofcourse I would advise any diabetic to take a hypo seriously and that we should ALWAYS test before and during driving. I just dont believe that its fair for the DVLA to revoke a licence if you have had 'a' bad hypo. Every diabetic would have a bad hypo at some point.

I am fit and healthy diabetic. If I want to keep my blood sugars normal (under 7), I will be prone to hypo's at some point. If I did have a hypo at home, would it be fair that I must now have my licence revoked? If and when i do drive, I ALWAYS test before so because I may have had 1 bad hypo in a 3 year period.... should I be discriminated against?

If I was having say more than 1 hypo a month..... and lost hypo awareness, then sure....the DVLA could revoke my licence.

Im sorry about your son but you cant tar all diabetics with the same brush. The majority of us are responsible.

 

[martwolves]

Sw11. Reel your neck in a bit, mate. However dissatisfied you feel this person has lost a child and you don't even give toss one! I don't like this arrogant "I'm annoyed, so I'm right attitude. Bereaved. Please don't tar me with the same brush as this stroker. I am sympathetic and not that it matters to you now, I ceased driving for the very reason your son lost his life. I gave my car to my daughter and bought a west midlands travelcard and get the bus and train to work now. If I'm feeling like taking the mick, I'll get the bus and metro and have an extra 15 minutes to read.

I know the risks, those who are impeccable or have the same **** every day and know their readings, good I tust them. But at THIS juncture in my life I want to feel alive and not just exist. I never say you fight to exist another day, what's the point, you might as well be brown bread. I'll shut up now. But please do not associate me with an arrogant whalloper.

 

[CollieBoy]

Martwolves, sorry not all of us have the luxury of getting a West Midlands Travelcard and swanning around on a bus. For many of us outside the major connurbations, the bus is not viable transport, or perhaps you think we should uprot ourselves from our communities & farmilies to move to conurbations.
BTW,I feel for Bereaved but feel also for the victims of DVLA .

 

[hale710]

Martwolves, sorry not all of us have the luxury of getting a West Midlands Travelcard and swanning around on a bus.

This is very unfair. Mart is not "swanning around on a bus". He surrendered his licence to protect both himself and the general public. (And mart I'm guessing you made your daughter very happy to have a car too!)

Those who have no choice but to take the bus can sure find a way to do it! (Or train or subway or taxi.....)

 

[Thundercat]

I second that Hale. I understand your frustration Fergus. Where I live there are 2 buses a week. Attacking mart is deeply unfair, he is not responsible for poor infrastructure

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[CollieBoy]

Mart, Sorry to snap at you for having the good fortune to have decent infrastructure.
But I was temporarily in the no licence situ It cost me my job and the offered buscard gave me the choice of life with family or a job.(who wants a worker who can't get in before ~10am!
Buscards are designed for those who are no longer employed IMHO :thumbdown:
SW11bloke was wrong to not notify serious hypos but i canunderstand the temptaion to do so if you doing so means condemning you and your family to poverty and economic suicide due to an inflexible regime (Don't worry they are just obeying orders: - sound familiar as a defence!)
I am not blaming anyone but the DVLA & the system.

 

[mo1905]

This DVLA subject is a very difficult area all round. The format and paperwork is certainly not user friendly and is open to falsification or honest mistakes.
The way people live and work now with varying shift patterns, along with reduced/expensive public transport can make commuting nearly impossible for a few and difficult for many. That's not to say I agree with keeping people on the road who are dangerous, those who are prone to hypos should certainly not be on the road.
The problem arises when a license is lost for an occasional hypo which happened whilst not at the wheel or a mistake whilst filling forms out. Also, the length of time the DVLA take to reply is horrendous. I had an LGV license, work related, 6 months down the line and still no decision. These errors/delays really do cost jobs.
As I said before, I am all for road safety, I work for the emergency services and have seen the torment and pain of road traffic collisions. However, I do see the temptation to possibly forget the odd hypo here or there if you are aware and can deal with it. I understand that to lose your license the hypos only count if they required treatment by a third party but this is where there is some confusion both in form filling and understanding.
Lastly, why just pick on diabetics ? I've been to hundreds of accidents, none diabetes related. I have had a few where a heart attack turned out to be the cause. Should the DVLA take licenses away from anyone with heart problems ?
These are just my observations and opinions. I am not condoning false DVLA documentation or for anyone with a heart problem/disease to lose their license. Just food for thought and adding to the debate.


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[hale710]

This DVLA subject is a very difficult area all round. The format and paperwork is certainly not user friendly and is open to falsification or honest mistakes.
The way people live and work now with varying shift patterns, along with reduced/expensive public transport can make commuting nearly impossible for a few and difficult for many. That's not to say I agree with keeping people on the road who are dangerous, those who are prone to hypos should certainly not be on the road.
The problem arises when a license is lost for an occasional hypo which happened whilst not at the wheel or a mistake whilst filling forms out. Also, the length of time the DVLA take to reply is horrendous. I had an LGV license, work related, 6 months down the line and still no decision. These errors/delays really do cost jobs.
As I said before, I am all for road safety, I work for the emergency services and have seen the torment and pain of road traffic collisions. However, I do see the temptation to possibly forget the odd hypo here or there if you are aware and can deal with it. I understand that to lose your license the hypos only count if they required treatment by a third party but this is where there is some confusion both in form filling and understanding.
Lastly, why just pick on diabetics ? I've been to hundreds of accidents, none diabetes related. I have had a few where a heart attack turned out to be the cause. Should the DVLA take licenses away from anyone with heart problems ?
These are just my observations and opinions. I am not condoning false DVLA documentation or for anyone with a heart problem/disease to lose their license. Just food for thought and adding to the debate.


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Some nice points raised there Mo! I think some diabetics do feel victimised, I personally fully endorse the DVLAs actions. I consider myself a considerate drive (as I would assume most others on here would) and I wouldn't like my life to be endangered by ANYONE on the road. Drunk drivers, people on drugs or people at high risk of hypo included.

The issue arises with genuine paperwork errors resulting in license suspension. I've no solution for if though!

 

[martwolves]

Let me clarify something here :

(1) I do not get any benefit from having a travlecard. I pay over £1,000 a year for it.

(2) It takes me 3 times as long to get to work.

(3) I have to get up significantly earlier in the morning, which I'm not pleased about.

(4) Public transport is not exactly luxurious and there are many unsavoury types on there. Swanning about implies I derive some kind of satisfaction, no, enjoyment and great pleasure in travelling with the public.

(5) I have no control over whether my bus turns up on time, meaning I often miss my connection. This is problematic coming home when they operate a far less frequent timetable and the bus station is hardly a fun place to be at night.

(6) This was own choice to be safe in MY travels and not risking causing an RTA to other vehicles or pedestrians and cyclists.

(7) I didn't say everyone with diabetes should do as I do, just stated my own decision and. How I arrived at the decision I made.

(8) My daughter couldn't drive at the time and has since passed her test. This enabled her to get the job she has got now and requires a car to get to work for quarter to six in the morning 5 miles away. I wouldn't want her walking alone as she is pretty, small and 19 years of age and could be vulnerable.

(9) I feel a lot more relaxed getting to work and being able to read on the way in, which I enjoy.

(10) I didn't say the UK has an abundance of reliable public transport networks all over the country and understand it is simply not an option.

(11) It's a shame for anyone to lose their job through no fault of their own. I suffered this 2 years ago as a direct result of being diabetic. A company director heard my appeal and I was reinstated immediately and the ignorant manager who made the initial dismissal was relocated.

(12) To reiterate, this works for me and I'm not free-loading or gloating to anybody. Why should someone display hatred towards me because this happens to work for me? It is quite rude and offensive in my opinion to behave like a belligerant primary school bully to someone who tries to help others. If public transport is poor where you live lobby your local counsellor. I certainly would not advise someone to relocate themselves and family just to enable them to use public transport. That is absolutely pathetic and lame and I resent you putting such flippant arrogant words in my mouth, when such an absurd notion would never enter my mind.

It works for me and I'd rather have the inconvenience of taking longer to get in than jeopardise the safety of the public, my family and myself.

I agreed with my very reasonable line manager that I can work flexible hours and ever leave work unfinished.

Sure all of the above has it's pros and cons, but I'm satisfied with the overall arrangements I've made.

I hope EVERYONE above, indeed everyone, can resolve and transportion impediments and obstacles they encounter.

Good luck, I wish you all the best.

Mart.

 

[martwolves]

I've caught the metro twice in 2 years by the way, where there have been problems on the Railway. If I get in at say, 0915 I stay till about 1730, even though I'm contracted to work 35 hours a week and salaried.
My train was cancelled this morning and I didn't get in until 1000 as rail replacement coaches were running instead. Though not my fault, I stayed until 6. I respect my line-manager allowing me to work flexible hours and would now betray his trust. My daughter did indeed love having the car for 17th birthday, when all her friends hadn't got one, by the way. Win, win for all of us. She takes me to my medical appointments and is good as gold in that respect.

Mart.

 

[Akash]

Don't know if this is silly, but i agree with the DVLA. If it means reducing the risk of harming yourself and others then these measures have to be taken. Especially people that don't get all the symptoms or lack awareness of hypos. It can be fatal as mentioned. Just my opinion though.


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App