Instant Energy

Mireille

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If I rely on my body to convert dietary fat into energy, will this satisfy my body's requirement in a fight/flight situation? In other words, will sufficient energy be available in time in such a situation?
 

diamondnostril

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Mireille said:
If I rely on my body to convert dietary fat into energy, will this satisfy my body's requirement in a fight/flight situation? In other words, will sufficient energy be available in time in such a situation?

Hi Mireille,

Interesting question :D

My understanding is that a fight or flight response in the human body will be stimulated by the release of hormones. At the very lowest level (inside the body's cells) all inputs will end up being converted to ATP (Adenosine triphosphate) before the body can utilize them as energy. My feeling is that if the raw materials have been provided (CHO/PRO/FAT in whatever combination you have chosen) then the hormone release will stimulate the prioritized use of those materials for fight or flight.

I think (though I'm sure many others disagree) that Ketosis would have been a natural state for many humans during our evolutionary history, if/when our diet was based mainly on animal fats, supplemented by fruits if/when they were available. I assume that fight or flight situations would have occurred just as frequently when fruits were, and were not, available. Therefore I assume that the fight or flight response is just as effective if you are in or out of Ketosis.

This is just speculation on my part. The closest I have come to a fight or flight situation since I have been on a Ketogenic diet is running to catch my train. Hardly comparable, but I do not seem to have any problems with a panicked short sharp dash.

Really interested to read the thoughts of others on that question . . .

Regards,
Antony
 

paul-1976

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Personally I have not noticed any difference,I'm in ketosis through my own choice and the nature of my life and personality means I experience fight or flight very often.
 

Mireille

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paul-1976 said:
Personally I have not noticed any difference,I'm in ketosis through my own choice and the nature of my life and personality means I experience fight or flight very often.

So the body can convert fat to energy as quickly as it can utilise stored glycogen and the chemical process is just as fast. Interesting.
 

Mireille

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51
diamondnostril said:
Mireille said:
If I rely on my body to convert dietary fat into energy, will this satisfy my body's requirement in a fight/flight situation? In other words, will sufficient energy be available in time in such a situation?

Hi Mireille,

Interesting question :D

My understanding is that a fight or flight response in the human body will be stimulated by the release of hormones. At the very lowest level (inside the body's cells) all inputs will end up being converted to ATP (Adenosine triphosphate) before the body can utilize them as energy. My feeling is that if the raw materials have been provided (CHO/PRO/FAT in whatever combination you have chosen) then the hormone release will stimulate the prioritized use of those materials for fight or flight.

I think (though I'm sure many others disagree) that Ketosis would have been a natural state for many humans during our evolutionary history, if/when our diet was based mainly on animal fats, supplemented by fruits if/when they were available. I assume that fight or flight situations would have occurred just as frequently when fruits were, and were not, available. Therefore I assume that the fight or flight response is just as effective if you are in or out of Ketosis.

This is just speculation on my part. The closest I have come to a fight or flight situation since I have been on a Ketogenic diet is running to catch my train. Hardly comparable, but I do not seem to have any problems with a panicked short sharp dash.

Really interested to read the thoughts of others on that question . . .

Regards,
Antony

I believe that the hormones you speak of trigger the release of glucose (I assume in the form of glycogen from the liver) if there is no glucose in the blood. I do not believe that the conversion of fat into energy meets the requirements of fight/flight in terms of speed of response.
 

paul-1976

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It's your choice whether you believe it or not,many of us do very well on ketogenic diets and in fact I know someone who does regular long distance running whilst being continually in ketosis.

I have to ask though,why all the interest in ketosis? It's quite obvious that it's not something you approve of..I do and it's my choice and I don't have to justify it to anybody.

Edit to add..Looking at your back posts and profile you're not diabetic and only appear to be here to question the validity of low carb and ketosis....Hmmm..I wonder what your real angle is for being here.

Remember this post? quite clearly states you have no interest in low carbing

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=46119&start=10
 

Mireille

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51
paul-1976 said:
It's your choice whether you believe it or not,many of us do very well on ketogenic diets and in fact I know someone who does regular long distance running whilst being continually in ketosis.

I have to ask though,why all the interest in ketosis? It's quite obvious that it's not something you approve of..I do and it's my choice and I don't have to justify it to anybody.

Edit to add..Looking at your back posts and profile you're not diabetic and only appear to be here to question the validity of low carb and ketosis....Hmmm..I wonder what your real angle is for being here.

Remember this post? quite clearly states you have no interest in low carbing

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=46119&start=10

I find your response extremely offensive. I have just been confirmed as being prediabetic. You are clearly very paranoid about your choice of lifestyle as illustrated by your public comments to the extent that you think you know what others are thinking and don't like being challenged. That tells me that you are not convinced yourself. If that's what low-carbing does to someone then you are a good example of avoiding it. If this site is only for diabetics and that subjects like low-carbing and ketosis are for the chosen few. the 'front page' should state quite clearly that Non-diabetics & Prediabetics 'KEEP OUT'.
 

diamondnostril

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Mireille said:
I believe that the hormones you speak of trigger the release of glucose (I assume in the form of glycogen from the liver) if there is no glucose in the blood. I do not believe that the conversion of fat into energy meets the requirements of fight/flight in terms of speed of response.

The body has a myriad of Hormones, which it has perfected the use of through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. I know from my own experience that the body knows perfectly well whether it is in Ketosis or not, and this will inform the exact hormonal response that it gives in any given situation. I don't expect that the body's exact fight or flight response in Ketosis will be the same as the body's exact fight or flight response out of Ketosis. I only say that the results will be the same. (Otherwise, we could expect that the survival strategy called "Ketosis" would have died a death long ago, with the death of those poor humans that were not able to run or fight).
 

paul-1976

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Mireille said:
paul-1976 said:
It's your choice whether you believe it or not,many of us do very well on ketogenic diets and in fact I know someone who does regular long distance running whilst being continually in ketosis.

I have to ask though,why all the interest in ketosis? It's quite obvious that it's not something you approve of..I do and it's my choice and I don't have to justify it to anybody.

Edit to add..Looking at your back posts and profile you're not diabetic and only appear to be here to question the validity of low carb and ketosis....Hmmm..I wonder what your real angle is for being here.

Remember this post? quite clearly states you have no interest in low carbing

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=46119&start=10

I find your response extremely offensive. I have just been confirmed as being prediabetic. You are clearly very paranoid about your choice of lifestyle as illustrated by your public comments to the extent that you think you know what others are thinking and don't like being challenged. That tells me that you are not convinced yourself. If that's what low-carbing does to someone then you are a good example of avoiding it. If this site is only for diabetics and that subjects like low-carbing and ketosis are for the chosen few. the 'front page' should state quite clearly that Non-diabetics & Prediabetics 'KEEP OUT'.

Not true,I'm perfectly convinced by my choice and I have always said that it's only MY choice and I don't expect others to do as I do.

Also,EVERYONE is welcome here but the majority of your posts are not about diabetes BUT questioning the validity of Low carbing which is something you state you are not interested in so I still don't get what the big interest is...If you want help with your diabetes then there are many people here who will always try and help and offer their opinion,not medical advice but opinion only
 

Mireille

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51
diamondnostril said:
Mireille said:
I believe that the hormones you speak of trigger the release of glucose (I assume in the form of glycogen from the liver) if there is no glucose in the blood. I do not believe that the conversion of fat into energy meets the requirements of fight/flight in terms of speed of response.

The body has a myriad of Hormones, which it has perfected the use of through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. I know from my own experience that the body knows perfectly well whether it is in Ketosis or not, and this will inform the exact hormonal response that it gives in any given situation. I don't expect that the body's exact fight or flight response in Ketosis will be the same as the body's exact fight or flight response out of Ketosis. I only say that the results will be the same. (Otherwise, we could expect that the survival strategy called "Ketosis" would have died a death long ago, with the death of those poor humans that were not able to run or fight).

I think you are quite right. But the body would need to recover from a situation and be ready for the next one, which could happen at any time. I also think that the 'survival strategy' called 'ketosis' by you refers to situations of starvation. Anyone who in in a famine situation, e.g. certain parts of Africa, would find it very hard to run. Give them an apple and they probably could run a bit. That is part of the reason they are so vulnerable. And before you try to patronise me about using this as an example, I have first-had experience. :)

Here's a scenario ... a young child who hasn't eaten for days has the opportunity to escape from Syria to Turkey on foot. Do you

1. Give them a bowl of fruit
2. Give them a tub of lard
 

Neil Walters

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Is it not the case that a high fat diet will just make you fat or is that too simplistic?

I suspect that if there are fat deposits present these will be converted into energy through ketosis faster than your body can metabolise dietary fat but that is equally simplistic I suspect.


Diagnosed Type II 1998 1 x 80 mg Gliclazide, 4 x 500mg Metformin and 1 x 100mg Sitagliptin - HbA1c - 48 mmol/mol
 

Andy12345

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ok i have no idea about most of this stuff you are discussing but that never stopped me poking my nose in before so.... i have hopefully been in ketosis for quite a few months now and i cram in as much fat as i can and ive never had so much energy. i run 5 k at least 3 times a week now where as before i couldnt run to the toilet so i have to say from personal experience that my body is perfectly happy with this, i wouldnt need fight or flight hormone, i just need the flight one :)


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App
 

paul-1976

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Andy12345 said:
ok i have no idea about most of this stuff you are discussing but that never stopped me poking my nose in before so.... i have hopefully been in ketosis for quite a few months now and i cram in as much fat as i can and ive never had so much energy. i run 5 k at least 3 times a week now where as before i couldnt run to the toilet so i have to say from personal experience that my body is perfectly happy with this, i wouldnt need fight or flight hormone, i just need the flight one :)


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Though of course, us Low carbers only eat lard don't we? :lol:
 

Mireille

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Messages
51
paul-1976 said:
Mireille said:
paul-1976 said:
It's your choice whether you believe it or not,many of us do very well on ketogenic diets and in fact I know someone who does regular long distance running whilst being continually in ketosis.

I have to ask though,why all the interest in ketosis? It's quite obvious that it's not something you approve of..I do and it's my choice and I don't have to justify it to anybody.

Edit to add..Looking at your back posts and profile you're not diabetic and only appear to be here to question the validity of low carb and ketosis....Hmmm..I wonder what your real angle is for being here.

Remember this post? quite clearly states you have no interest in low carbing

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=46119&start=10

I find your response extremely offensive. I have just been confirmed as being prediabetic. You are clearly very paranoid about your choice of lifestyle as illustrated by your public comments to the extent that you think you know what others are thinking and don't like being challenged. That tells me that you are not convinced yourself. If that's what low-carbing does to someone then you are a good example of avoiding it. If this site is only for diabetics and that subjects like low-carbing and ketosis are for the chosen few. the 'front page' should state quite clearly that Non-diabetics & Prediabetics 'KEEP OUT'.

Not true,I'm perfectly convinced by my choice and I have always said that it's only MY choice and I don't expect others to do as I do.

Also,EVERYONE is welcome here but the majority of your posts are not about diabetes BUT questioning the validity of Low carbing which is something you state you are not interested in so I still don't get what the big interest is...If you want help with your diabetes then there are many people here who will always try and help and offer their opinion,not medical advice but opinion only

As far as I am aware, I have not, so far, asked for any advice on diet. I have asked for clarification on things like ketosis. It seems that even mentioning the term is like walking on hot embers. I did not appreciate just how emotional a subject it was and how difficult it is to have an open conversation about the subject and I apologise for having upset you as a result of mentioning it. From now on I promise not to discuss anything related to low-carb diets and will focus on diabetes-related matters.
 

diamondnostril

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Messages
194
Type of diabetes
Type 1
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Insulin
Mireille said:
I think you are quite right. But the body would need to recover from a situation and be ready for the next one, which could happen at any time. I also think that the 'survival strategy' called 'ketosis' by you refers to situations of starvation. Anyone who in in a famine situation, e.g. certain parts of Africa, would find it very hard to run. Give them an apple and they probably could run a bit. That is part of the reason they are so vulnerable. And before you try to patronise me about using this as an example, I have first-had experience. :)

Here's a scenario ... a young child who hasn't eaten for days has the opportunity to escape from Syria to Turkey on foot. Do you

1. Give them a bowl of fruit
2. Give them a tub of lard


Hi . . .

Unfortunately I reached the limits of my restricted knowledge of the topic, so I must declare myself out of the discussion after this Post. My feeling is that the state of Ketosis would not exist in humans if it did not offer an equivalent survival advantage compared to other states . . . but I cannot go back into history to grab the statistics to illustrate this claim.

The 'survival strategy' called 'ketosis' that I refer to does not refer exclusively to situations of starvation. It refers to situations of restricted Carbohydrate. This is what triggers Ketosis. Restricted Carbohydrate and starvation are obviously two very different scenarios. In my opinion, this state (restricted Carbohydrates) covers the vast majority of our evolutionary history. I think it is only in the most recent few thousand years (after the advent of agriculture) that Carbohydrates have become available regardless of the season. This is why I think that Ketosis would have been a default and natural state for humans throughout our evolution. But of course I cannot travel back in time and know this for sure.

I'm a bit concerned that your assumption is that I will try to patronise you. Did you get a bad feeling from my Posts here or on another thread? If so I am sorry about that. On this thread I only wanted to respond to your original question, and hopefully get some responses on this topic from other people.

My feeling for your quoted question, not based on any kind of personal experience, is that most people in this desperate situation would probably choose the Carbs rather than the Fat. (I think that is what I would choose in this situation. Thankfully, I don't know and never will know). In my own situation of being a well-fed individual, in Ketosis by choice, I choose Fat and am pretty confident in my ability to run or fight if the need arises.

Regards,
Antony
 

phoenix

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Mireille,
You might like to read this paper by Stephen Phinney, an advocate of the ketogenic diet who does indeed have a caveat in his conclusion
Therapeutic use of ketogenic diets should not require constraint of most forms of physical labor or recreational activity, with the one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2
It's probably not so easy to flee when your muscles are depleted of glycogen.
 

wiflib

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Ive been in ketosis for over five years and I'm also an HCP that deals with life threatening emergencies that I have to attend on almost a daily basis, never knowing what the emergency is until I get in the room and knowing if I don't follow protocol, I could risk being struck off.

I manage that absolutely fine plus the rest of my life thanks.

I'll take the lard please.

wiflib

HbA1c 4.6
 

LittleGreyCat

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Mireille said:
If I rely on my body to convert dietary fat into energy, will this satisfy my body's requirement in a fight/flight situation? In other words, will sufficient energy be available in time in such a situation?

Just come late to this thread and I don't see any mention of the word 'ketosis' in the original question.

The question above is a bit imprecise.

If you are asking if you can have high sustained energy levels on a low carbohydrate diet where you get most of your energy from fats and oils then the answer is obviously "Yes" - regardless of whether you are going so low in the carbs that you are in ketosis or not.

The initial rush of energy in the 'fight or flight' response is due to the releasing of the body's stores of energy which have already been processed - you don't start getting your energy from your gut contents in that situation. In fact the flight response may also include dumping your gut contents (crapping yourself, sh*t scared etc.).

If you are asking if, after you have exhausted all your bodily energy reserves, eating fat will boost your energy reserves as fast as eating carbohydrates and sugars so that you can resume your fight/flight then the answer is probably not.

As far as I know diabetic endurance athletes will use carbs and sugars to keep their levels up during and post exercise because of the fast action.
This has to be balanced with slow release carbs, fats and protein to prevent the spikes and troughs you get if you rely wholly on sugars.

An interesting point - a T2 may start with higher blood glucose than a non-diabetic and so have more energy available in the blood stream. Slow ramping up of insulin production may also prevent the trough which you get when sugar hits the blood then insulin is released and clears too much out too quickly. However I haven't seen any study of this. Also, some diabetic problems relate to sugars passing through the cell boundaries so this might slow down the transfer of energy to the muscles.

Cheers

LGC
 

Sid Bonkers

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Mireille said:
paul-1976 said:
Personally I have not noticed any difference,I'm in ketosis through my own choice and the nature of my life and personality means I experience fight or flight very often.

So the body can convert fat to energy as quickly as it can utilise stored glycogen and the chemical process is just as fast. Interesting.

No that is incorrect Mireille, glycogen is stored in our muscles ready to be used for energy as and when required or for instant release in a fight or flight situation, it is stored glycogen (glucose) that is used in fight or flight situations and is triggered by the release of adrenalin. Providing a person has enough glycogen stored in their muscles ready for instant release it shouldnt mater what diet they eat.

However fat is less effective ie slower to convert into glycogen than carbs which is why the human body looks for carbs to convert before fat raising considerable doubt in my mind that we were ever designed to utilise fat as an energy source, if that were the case surely our bodies would look for fat before carbs when seeking to produce glucose.

Whether or not someone in ketosis has the same amount of stored glycogen than someone eating a normal diet I have no idea, if they dont then it would have an impact on the fight or flight reflex as it is the release of glycogen that fuels the explosive energy required to fight or flee.