organ donation . opt in? or opt out?

whompa73

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I am involved in a debate among some friends and peirs on fb at the moment. Over the discission of the welsh goverment to addopt the opt out system of being put on the organ donation register. It is somthing I feel strongly about but cannot fully express non facebook as I havent told people that I have certain health problems. Eg stage 2 kidney disease kidney damage and evidence of liver damage . And although I do realise in the grand scheme of things stage 2 is so mild a form it is not even seen as perticually a problem by drs I can assure you that when you are first told that you have a problem especially when the dr starts talking about getting you started on meds so to try and stop the possability of kidny failure . That the news commes as quite a shock . And for me is also a personal thing and I dont want everyone knowing . For me the prospect of kidney disease if far more intimidating than the diabetes that probably caused it in the first place. And although I dont realy beleive or atleast cant see at the moment that there should ever be the need for a transplant (coz I is invincible init!) It is certainly somthing that perhaps requires a more introspective consideration . And after reading some of the posts I felt I had to have a say so this is my first post on the topic.

Sory but I cannot agree with this. In principle I kind of uderstand .but in practice I cannot condone anything that takes away MY INDIVIDUAL RIGHT TO MAKE A CHOICE FOR MYSELF. I do infact carry a donor card and obviously am a registered donor . But that is my right to choose I have made the disission to what I want to happen to my part after I am dead. The presumption of what I consent to by not opting out it to my mind fundamentally wrong . I my not of heared of the law . I may not know how to opt out. I may not have had chance yet to opt out. The paper work may have gone missing or filed wrong . The sheer arrogance of presumption and righteousness show by this law and the people who made it is astounding. Only I have the right to decide not you. Make no mistake here this is about personal freedom and your human rights. I think any right minded person will agree to the donor scheme and the good it does but it should be a chiose no obligatory which is in essence what it will become as many people will not even realise that the law exists let alone how to opt out and the confusion surrounding it will be such the many wont even realise that it will be somthing they need to do. I personally equate it to the introduction of the helmet law I beleive it was fred hill that was the great exponant of riding free and makng your own choice not having that choice forced upon you.

Obviously I had some people agreeing with me aswell as some who dissagreed .
Some thought that the ability to choose was still available.
While some seemed to think the right was on the side of those needing a transplant
Infact one told me that the choice was still mine all I had to do was choose not to and the started quoting statistics . So this was my second reply
No on what planet is automatically being put on the register being give a chioce . And why should I have to wast my time and effort and possably money to opt out of somthing I did not want in the first place . It is a total invasion of my personal rights. And give the track record of the great british government to correctly educate the populas to the change in the law . does not fill me with confidence. A law that says tbey have a right to my body after I die . We will then be shafted again as those of religious heratage that sets forth strict doctrine on what should be done with the body will automatically be excluded . It is not a law of equality and it breaches my human rights.

Obviously this is a very emotive subject . And some who had been waiting for transplants where talking of those they saw die while waiting. While another talked of seeing a 14 year old relitive deteriorate before dieing.
Due to the arena of discussion eg facebook and not wanting folk to know whats going on medically I couldnt punctuate my feeling with saying why the subject had such a significance to recent events in my life and had to leave the discussion.
I do realise the pain and suffering ofmthose awaiting a donor and feel for the famillys of those waiting and those who's time is either running or ran out. But I just cannot accept the concept that others have the right to make this dissission for me. And given my total lack of faith in the goverment and my tottal cynicism I am even asking myself how long before they start talking about an organ tax. And how much it will cost to be buried intact. Perhaps I am going a bit too far but I am sick and tired of having my rights eroded.
Please what are your thoughts
 

mentat

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I don't know what the proposal is in Wales but in most places I know of, the family must give final consent anyhow. I think the "opt out" system is just a means of pushing people to overcome their fear of death and discuss the matter with their families, the nudge that could make all the difference.
 

whompa73

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Is it though ? Lets face it, the first its likly to come up is when someone dies and the family find out that they havent opted out/ are on the organ donor register . Will the family be told that they are there not because the person has made a consious dessission to opt in but just because they have bothered to opt out. Atleast with the opt in system the relatives know beyond any doubt that the person wished for this to happen.
 

mentat

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It's a tough issue, but with some countries paying people for organs or harvesting them from executed prisoners, I don't think the opt-out solution is that bad in the scheme of things.
 

whompa73

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Thats like saying hay I may have a broken nose but look at him he got kicked in the balls. It an erosion of our rights . Its not about wether you agree with donation or not. Iv madenit quite clear I do. But its the fact that we are having are right to decide stipped away . And the more we alow them to take the more they will keep taking. And when its over a subject like this that on the face of it seems an altruistic choice it makes it easyer to get it passed with out people realising what the real issue is. Then all of a sudden disissions and choices are being taked away from you than are not quite so altruistic but we are powerless to stop it because a president has already been set . And lets face it the next logical step in this is compulsory organ donation. The right to free thinking and free dissision making is dieing out . I realy do hope I'm dead before that fully happens . Live free, ride free, die free or die trying.
 

mentat

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Totally with you on that. But this isn't where I would fight that battle. I would fight it in education: make sure the next generation know their rights, are able to see when they are being eroded, and willing to take a stand.
 

whompa73

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You have to fight the battle where you find it . Or all of a sudden you find that you have lost it without even realising it was taking place
 

mentat

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Well, I respect your right to fight that battle!
 

Mongoose39uk

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I am more than happy to carry the card and people can have any bits they want when I no longer have a use for them.

That is while it is opt in. As soon as it became an opt out well card in bits for me. It would be a very difficult decision to make as I want to help people that way, however it feels to me an erosion of freedom of choice. I don't like to feel forced to do things and do tend to vote with my feet very quickly.

It becomes at that stage too easy for people to miss they have a choice.

Erosions of freedom are important battles to fight.

Having said that I think most people would just roll over and accept it.
 

Morganator

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I feet we should opt in, as far as I'm concerned they can do what they want with my body once I'm gone.
What I don't like is hearing that family members over-rule the wishes of the donor because of their personal beliefs.
Once you opt in it should be written in stone.

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noblehead

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It's a difficult one and tbh I'm still sitting on the fence with this one. Yes I agree in principle what your saying Whompa and we shouldn't be made to join a scheme where we haven't voluntarily joined in the first place, on the other-hand there's a terrible shortage of organ donors and the suffering continues for those waiting for the news of a transplant.

The helmet comparison I don't agree with, like the seat belt law it has saved countless lives since its introduction and I for one wouldn't wish to ride a motorbike without a lid (I'm a ex-biker). I always think of those who have to pick up the pieces after a tragic accident and it can't be nice for them, helmets do save lives make no mistake!
 

whompa73

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I agree, once the individual has said yes then it should be wrighten in stone and the familjy should have the choice denied . Just as i abhor the fact that they are taking away my choice to opt in. And given the fact I am a card carrying registered donor I would equally be outraged that my choice to donate had be over ruled and taken away . It should be the individuals choice and no one elses. But that beeing said with an opt out system I I think yes the family should have the right to vito the donation as it may not have been a conscious discission to join the scheme.

Morganator said:
I feet we should opt in, as far as I'm concerned they can do what they want with my body once I'm gone.
What I don't like is hearing that family members over-rule the wishes of the donor because of their personal beliefs.
Once you opt in it should be written in stone.

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whompa73

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There it as much of a argument for people who would ride without, as for people who ride with, as people who ride without wearing helmits ride far more sencibly than those that wear them being given a false sence of security. infact the effectiveness of a helmit is often overestimated and in most accidents is of not practical use what so ever other than at relitivly low speed or from the greating effect or road rash. And the comparison was due to the erosion of personal choice in a thread mainy visited by bikers . My personal choice would be to wear one but that is my choice.


noblehead said:
It's a difficult one and tbh I'm still sitting on the fence with this one. Yes I agree in principle what your saying Whompa and we shouldn't be made to join a scheme where we haven't voluntarily joined in the first place, on the other-hand there's a terrible shortage of organ donors and the suffering continues for those waiting for the news of a transplant.

The helmet comparison I don't agree with, like the seat belt law it has saved countless lives since its introduction and I for one wouldn't wish to ride a motorbike without a lid (I'm a ex-biker). I always think of those who have to pick up the pieces after a tragic accident and it can't be nice for them, helmets do save lives make no mistake!
 

Morganator

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In this day and age you would think that they could link your decision, either yes or no, to your health records or NI number.

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paul-1976

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This may be my 'Black or white only' thinking but I firmly believe that if you are prepared to accept an organ if you needed it then you should be prepared to give one when you no longer need it.
 
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ewelina

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There is nothing of higher value than life and thats what should be put first. There is a shortage of donors and it happens probably not because people dont want to give their organs but because they never declared that they want to. How many of us wouldnt mind but never sent the declaration?
As a diabetic Im aware I have higher risk of kidney failure for example. At the same time I know that most of my organs wouldnt be used for transplantation even If i really wanted. Dont you think it sounds a bit selfish to have that disccusion here?
 

whompa73

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Yes I think a forum where the issuse being discussed is of a real and pressent concern for many of the members is the exact place it should be discussed. As stated in the first post I am recently diagnosed stage 2 ckd and as having kidney dammage . I have infact this morning since the original post been to an appointment with the nurse to have the final urin test taken to find out if the meds are working and have helped/reversed the damage or if i will be seeing a specialist over it. also found out for the first time some of the numbers for the protein or Microalbuminuria which was 79 and not sure what the other number was I think she said ratio but may be confusing the 2 but was told it was off the chart so no value was given . So looking on the internet at these values it seems I may have a real problem. Hopefully I will have had a significant improvement since starting meds. I do however have to see the kidney specialists in december as they have found a growth on my kidney which they thought/think is cystic and hopefully not a problem but they sent the scans to the specialist who has said he thinks he needs to see me. I am, and have been for many years a registered donor (your apathy towards wanting to do it but not being bothered is your problem and not the problem of those who do not wish to donate but are forcibly being put on the list. I far more respect the person who consciously decides they do not wish to be a donor than some one who cant be ***** to get off the backside to do somthing about registering. And then put forward their own lazyness as a decent reason for stripping someone olse of their ability to choose . It also takes away from those who have been bothered to register ) So I would have to say that yes the issue is one that is of intimate personal intrest to me on many levels. And remember this is only being rolled out in wales at the moment so those in englandd and scotland who want to donate and have not registered need to do so now. You can do it on line it only take a couple of minutes. This donation is a gift . A gift of extened life and or a life with less pain and suffering . It I not a right it can and should only be given freely . So please be generous and register NOW!!
 

whompa73

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Where is that like button. Totally agree. :thumbup:

paul-1976 said:
This may be my 'Black or white only' thinking but I firmly believe that if you are prepared to accept an organ if you needed it then you should be prepared to give one when you no longer need it.
 
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catherinecherub

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Depends how you view the subject ewelina,

People with diabetes are 144% more likely to need Renal Replacement Therapy compared to their peers.

It is estimated that people living with diabetes are up to 12 times more likely to develop advanced kidney disease.

An estimated 40% of people with diabetes will develop CKD (stages 1 - 5) during their lifetime.

All stages of CKD are associated with CVD and premature mortality.

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Documents/Po ... e-0613.pdf

There could be members reading this who are actually having Replacement Renal Therapy or awaiting a transplant. It would be helpful to get their views.

I also think that views on this can be subjective or objective and unless we walk in the shoes of those affected by severe kidney disease our opinions really do not matter. A good percentage of us would not have healthy enough kidneys required for a transplant.

What we should be doing is campaigning for better health checks for diabetics.

I do have an organ donor card and my family are well aware of my wishes. If you are hostile to your organs being harvested then you should make sure that people are aware.
 

ewelina

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Depends how you view the subject ewelina,
I totoally agree with you Catherine. Im not against being a donor at all (and my family is aware of that) but I really doubt my organs will ever be of any use to anyone. Thats a reason 'I couldnt be ***** to get off the backside to do somthing about registering' as Whompa politely said.

stripping someone olse of their ability to choose
Nobody is stripping anyone of anything. You can always choose to opt out, the same as you can choose to opt in now. The new law would save many more lives and thats the most important argument to me.