Diabetes UK & reduced carb (2)

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fatbird

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"I don't do conspiracy theories I am afraid."

Would you say the big pharma companies behind DUK do not have influence? Would not the promotion of a low carb alternative not cost big pharma a massive amount of money!

Some DUK sponsors.

Abbott Bayer Boehringer Ingelheim Bristol Myers Squibb Flora pro.activ Lilly Lloyds Pharmacy Merck Novo Nordisk Pfizer Rowlands Pharmacies Sanofi-aventis Splenda Takeda Tesco Diets

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Thommothebear

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Thommothebear

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IanD

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It would be helpful to the thread - intended to be referred to DUK - if contributors delete ALL the comments on this page & refrain from such arguments.
 
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IanD

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Thanks, folk.

From the other thread - with links inserted:

DUK do publish documentation on diet. Their "Position Statement" can be read on line.


They also publish a comprehensive documentation = Evidence-based nutrition guidelines for the prevention and management of diabetes

I have previous noted:

I know of at least two long term studies of low carb:

A 44 month (& ongoing) Swedish study, (citation 13 in D UK Position Statement) which states: “ the present high-carbohydrate dietary advice resulting in unnecessary hyperglycemia and insulin resistance seems difficult to support and for diabetes patients, current dietary recommendations seem to be a major part of their problem rather than being part of the solution. Carbohydrate restriction, however, reverses or neutralises all aspects of the metabolic syndrome.”


Dr. Mark Daly, Consultant diabetologist, the MacLeod Diabetes and Endocrine Centre, Exeter responded to my query:

“We have presented our results at 3 national and 1 international meetings.

We found no serious adverse effects over 2 years but not everyone is as good at sticking to low carbohydrate diets as you.”
The “Evidence-based nutrition guidelines” document states on P. 17:

Low-carbohydrate diets have created some controversy, but both a recent review and meta-analysis suggest that they are associated with significant reductions in body weight and improvements in glycaemic control.......

Concern has been expressed about the potential adverse effects of these diets, especially on cardiovascular risk, but there remains no evidence of harm over the short term.

I have the 2003 issue of "Balance" which issued dire warnings against low carb, specifically Atkins. These warnings have been forgotten except for "Concern has been expressed ..." but it is now evident that such concern is spurious. My notes from that follow:

.... warnings of the dangers of "breakdown of vital muscle & body tissues" or "increased risk of heart disease, cancers & bowel disorders" or "the risk of kidney disease." Such a diet may be "suitable ... with medical supervision & with guidance from a state-registered dietitian."

A key paragraph is: "Research into the long-term effects of low-carb diets is now required. And in response to this, Diabetes UK is funding such research."

Eight years on we have the 2011 D UK “Position Statement” where we read:

"More research is needed to assess the effectiveness of varying degrees of low-carbohydrate diet on weight, glycaemic control, hypertension and lipid profile in people with Type 2 diabetes as well as to investigate the long term effects of these diets."

I can't wait for yet more long term studies - I've too much to lose. I followed their "healthy diet" for 7 years & was crippled by the complications. My low-carb diet started in May 2008. The complications disappeared in 3 months. Six years on I am well & active.

 
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IanD

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There seems to be enough information on the DUK websites, incl;uding the evidence of professional studies, for DUK to advise all diabetics (& particularly T2) to restrict their consumption of carbohydrates of all types, without fear of litigation from following such advice.

Patients should be advised of possible complications that may arise, & Doctors, dietitians & specialist nurses know the questions to ask during our reviews. Cited problems (from the Position Statement) are:
When considering a low-carbohydrate diet as an option for weight loss, people with diabetes should be made aware of possible side effects such as the risk of hypoglycaemia, head-aches, lack of concentration and constipation.​
These are readily corrected by adjustment to the diet.

Possible nutritional deficiencies can be corrected by over-the-counter vitamin/mineral supplements.

We are told that diabetes is progressive, even if we follow the DUK recommendation for diet, exercise, etc. The experience of many contributors to this forum is that the good control resulting from a low carb diet helps correct - even reverse - such complications.
 
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Totto

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If you need to loose weight a carbs restriction to 20 grams a day works wonders, or so I have heard. I rarely go above 50.

You don't need more carbs than that. As for nutrition, you don't really need any carb intake at all. So you can eat almost no carbs at all and thrive.
 
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IanD

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We need to be constructive & helpful - not least to the folk at DUK who influence the health professionals & the treatment of diabetes patients.

Is low GI the answer? See what is written on the DUK website. If you thought you understood the concept, you cannot fail to be confused - & if you are not confused, you haven't understood. At best, a reduction of 0.5% in HbA1c which is a small improvement compared with what we can routinely achieve by carb reduction.

I suggest that the "dietitian problem" problem is incredibly simple - T2 is generally late onset, while training is given to the young. They have no direct personal experience, so the advice they give was learnt from theories in vogue years ago. Also they are taught that diabetes is progressive so they accept that the degeneration of patients is caused by diabetes itself - not the diet they advise their patients.

The dietitian I have seen from 2000 on has listened to me - the high starchy carb, moderate GI advice has changed, as far as I know. I emailed her about my low carb diet, she invited me on her XPERT course, & allowed me to explain about the benefits of low carb. She reduced her carb recommendation to 130 g/day, which is the theoretical amount to provide the glucose needed for us to function. (That ignores glucose from other souces.) She even invited me back on an XPERT refresher course as an example of what can be achieved.
 
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Thommothebear

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I did the 20 carb for the first few weeks then started to increase to find out how much I could handle before BG's started to rise too much, I settled on around 60-80g, but I still go lower quite often. I would not want to stay on 20g for any length of time though, nor would I want to raise my protein intake much more, I find it hard to eat too much protein.


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Thommothebear

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I suggest that the "dietitian problem" problem is incredibly simple - T2 is generally late onset, while training is given to the young. They have no direct personal experience, so the advice they give was learnt from theories in vogue years ago. Also they are taught that diabetes is progressive, so they accept that the degeneration of patients is caused by diabetes itself - not the diet they advise their patients.

That is exactly it, and its not confined to DUK. I was placed on the same high carb low fat diet some years ago due to rising cholesterol, at the time I had no problems with my blood sugars, previous to that I was on a Mediterranean type diet which was not in any way low fat and certainly not high in starchy carbs. Not only did the high carb low fat diet not fix the cholesterol issue, within 2 years I started having blood glucose issues and a further 6-7 years on I was diagnosed with diabetes T2 just about a year ago

I was pointed at this forum by a friend and discovered the low carb forum and figured it had to be worth a try and I am so glad I did.
Within 3 months I had knocked my hba1c down 25% to 46, my ldl cholesterol and trigs dropped and my HDL had risen and my weight which had been rising started to fall dramatically.

My situation now is that pretty much everything has normalised, although I doubt that I would get through an OGTT with a normal response anymore, the damage is already done. I personally blame the NHS and their insistence on pushing high carb diets on pretty much everyone, DUK are just part of the same problem and I suspect the British Heart Foundation are the same.

Edit - i also did the Xpert course last year and they were on board with low carb too, again though they are still saying 130g is the minimum they can recommend, but at least it's a start. The presenter did say that a lot of doctors and DN did not agree though.


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xyzzy

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Undeserving authority figures of all kinds and idiots.
I don't but into the big pharma theory, whilst I do generally agree with what FB writes.
.

Yes I generally don't go for the big pharma conspiracy theory thing *BUT* in the case of advocating carbohydrate restriction I think something maybe a little bit stinky.

I think deep down the chain that these guys could be the real culprit http://www.sacn.gov.uk/ as they are the ones entrusted to set the UK's dietary policy.

As far as I understand they are the modern version of the "Committee on Medical Aspects of Food and Nutrition Policy (COMA)" that set the 1991 guidelines that the UK healthy diet still adheres to today and is where concepts like the Eatwell Plate derive their basis from.

SACN have had a carbohydrate sub committee that has leisurely been examining the role of carbohydrates in our diet since 2008. Here are the committee members list of declared interests.

I'll leave people to decide if they think there maybe a slight conflict of interest going on ...

Prof Tim Key Veterinary medicine. Epidemiology Vegan and vegetarian
Prof Julie Lovegrove Nutritionist GSK consultancy ;Unilever; Jordan Cereals; Sainsburys; Sugar Nutrtiion UK
Dr David Mela Eating Behaviours Employee and shareholder of Unilever
Prof Angus Walls Dental Expert GSK pay a consultancy fee and research funding
Prof Ian Young Clinical pathologist No interests declared
Prof Ian MacDonald Metabolic physiology Mars; Unilever; Coca Cola –research funding
Prof Ian Johnson Nutritionist Barry Callebaut (world’s largest chocolate manufacturer) – consultant
 
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Mud Island Dweller

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l dont know how others feel l try to keep to 20 to 30gram carbs per day and would be happy to be part of an offical or unofficial trial...Glareing at Sam who sorts things and other of the brainiac brigade here :))

Seriously though if that is a help l am willing to take part. If you put a small scale trial together with people on here on various diets/amounts with proper record daily x y z guidelines would that be helpful.
And willing to allow blood tests taken to be used or other tests if this is a help (accept others may not go that far)

Oook after throwing myself at the wolves and also a large part of the forum l shall errmmm ...head 》》》》》that away.
 
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fatbird

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How many non insulin injecting type two diabetics could follow the DUK carbohydrate guidelines (approximately 250 gms a day) and obtain long term non diabetic HbA1c? Reading members comments not very many it would seem.

FB
 
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xyzzy

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Yes Sam, Ian. I have my original records of the first six months from diagnosis showing 100's of BG readings, what I ate, carbs, calories and weightloss on all on a day by day basis. Quite happy to donate to you as it was those that impressed my own gp and dsn
 

Yorksman

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Some think a low carb high fat diet involves eating blocks of lard .


mmmmmm lardo di colonnata

lardo.jpg
 
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