This is very true!! :roll: :roll: BUT about 58% of it STILL gets converted to glucose.( The process is very clearly explained in the previous posts! ). This is a biological fact............Honest , we are not making this up!!!!!
:? :?Who Thinks Eating Protein makes Blood Glucose?
- Thread starter Jen&Khaleb
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This is very true!! :roll: :roll: BUT about 58% of it STILL gets converted to glucose.( The process is very clearly explained in the previous posts! ). This is a biological fact............Honest , we are not making this up!!!!!
:? :?i think it does my daughter would need 8 or 9 units of novorapid for a glass of milk and scrambled egg.when the milk is the only carb and the protein is in the eggs.
Does a Moderator really need to be discussing giving people the finger. This is the equivalent of swearing and not appropriate.
Jen
cugila said:
fergus said:
Jen
Err.....excuse me. :?
This was banter between two friends who first and foremost are members here. It was nothing to do with any moderation, so don't get the two confused.
Put it down to the English and Scot's sense of humour. It lightens things up quite a lot here.
This was banter between two friends who first and foremost are members here. It was nothing to do with any moderation, so don't get the two confused.
Put it down to the English and Scot's sense of humour. It lightens things up quite a lot here.
If you have fat ( either by being fat or having fat in your diet ) to covert into glucose via ketosis , as the Atkins diet claims , does this take precedence in the bodies metabolic process over protein going to glucose by gluconeogenesis or do they work at the same time ? Also if the liver has depeleted it's glycogen store , does it rebuild the glycogen store by converting fats and amino acids to Glucose or once depleted is it not replaced until carbs are eaten ?
Soundgen, please read the links!
Here is yet another one for you to read,
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9702&p=91169&hilit=gluconeogenesis#p91169
Here is yet another one for you to read,
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9702&p=91169&hilit=gluconeogenesis#p91169
Just for the sake of clarity, the body doesn't convert body fat or dietary fat into glucose, Soundgen.
The process of gluconeogenesis uses proteins and glycogen as fuel sources.
All the best,
fergus
The process of gluconeogenesis uses proteins and glycogen as fuel sources.
All the best,
fergus
smcc
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Following a piece in today's diabetes.co.uk suggesting that eating protein at barbrcues leads to a delayed rise in blood glucose I did an internet search (not Google) and came across this article.
http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm
These extracts seem relevant.
"As an example, as early as 1936, Conn and Newburgh5 reported no effect on blood glucose levels after a meal containing a large amount of protein in the form of lean beef. Fifteen subjects with diabetes and three control subjects were fed breakfasts of glucose or carbohydrate or protein foods calculated to yield equal amounts of glucose (2 g protein/kg compared to 1 g carbohydrate/kg). The blood glucose response after carbohydrate or glucose was as expected. However, there was no increase in blood glucose levels after the protein meal even though there was a consistent rise in blood urea nitrogen indicating protein utilization. The finding that protein did not raise blood glucose levels seems to have been lost or misinterpreted over the years. "
"More recently, data from Nuttall et al.6-9 also indicate that peripheral glucose concentration does not increase after protein ingestion in subjects with and without diabetes.
When Nuttall et al.10 gave nine subjects with mild type 2 diabetes 50 g protein, 50 g glucose, or 50 g protein and 50 g glucose and determined the plasma glucose and insulin responses over the next 5 hours. The glucose response to glucose was as expected, but the glucose response to protein remained stable for 2 hours and then began to decline. When protein and glucose were combined, the peak response was similar to that of glucose alone. However, during the late postprandial period, the glucose response was reduced by 34%. The insulin responses for protein and glucose were similar, but when combined the insulin response was nearly doubled. The glucose decrease when protein and glucose were combined was attributed to the increased insulin response to the combination."
http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm
These extracts seem relevant.
"As an example, as early as 1936, Conn and Newburgh5 reported no effect on blood glucose levels after a meal containing a large amount of protein in the form of lean beef. Fifteen subjects with diabetes and three control subjects were fed breakfasts of glucose or carbohydrate or protein foods calculated to yield equal amounts of glucose (2 g protein/kg compared to 1 g carbohydrate/kg). The blood glucose response after carbohydrate or glucose was as expected. However, there was no increase in blood glucose levels after the protein meal even though there was a consistent rise in blood urea nitrogen indicating protein utilization. The finding that protein did not raise blood glucose levels seems to have been lost or misinterpreted over the years. "
"More recently, data from Nuttall et al.6-9 also indicate that peripheral glucose concentration does not increase after protein ingestion in subjects with and without diabetes.
When Nuttall et al.10 gave nine subjects with mild type 2 diabetes 50 g protein, 50 g glucose, or 50 g protein and 50 g glucose and determined the plasma glucose and insulin responses over the next 5 hours. The glucose response to glucose was as expected, but the glucose response to protein remained stable for 2 hours and then began to decline. When protein and glucose were combined, the peak response was similar to that of glucose alone. However, during the late postprandial period, the glucose response was reduced by 34%. The insulin responses for protein and glucose were similar, but when combined the insulin response was nearly doubled. The glucose decrease when protein and glucose were combined was attributed to the increased insulin response to the combination."
mcdonagh47
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phoenix
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Haven't read the Barbeque item.
Nuttall and Gannon have done quite a bit of work subsequent to the papers quoted by Marian Franz. eg http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/16 which show quite a bit of complexity in the matter.
(there may be later studies, but haven't time at present to look them up)
This thread was originally started by a person with a T1 child and the post was subsequently rather hijacked and then moved. Since the post (and the Franz article) , there have been at least 2 studies showing that in T1 injecting just for the carb content in meals higher in protein/fats is insufficient.
In non diabetics and people with 'mild' or early T2, insulin is released when protein is ingested and indeed the G and N paper mentions that fat also produced a release with their T2 subjects ('the addition of butter clearly stimulated an increase in insulin concentration in people with type 2 diabetes')
In T1s , if no insulin injected for these foods, then there will be no insulin. This paper shows that injecting according to the insulin index ( an index of insulin released for various foods in normal people) got far better results for higher protein meals. than accounting for insulin alone. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/10/2146.full
The T1s who mentioned needing to dose for non carb or low carb meals aren't alone. If I eat a meal high in fat/protein and low in carbs then I need more insulin than the carb count alone would suggest.
In a mixed meal I don't account for protein/fat but suspect that is because I have similar proportions of macronutrients in most meals and therefore my carb counting takes this into account.
Nuttall and Gannon have done quite a bit of work subsequent to the papers quoted by Marian Franz. eg http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/16 which show quite a bit of complexity in the matter.
(there may be later studies, but haven't time at present to look them up)
This thread was originally started by a person with a T1 child and the post was subsequently rather hijacked and then moved. Since the post (and the Franz article) , there have been at least 2 studies showing that in T1 injecting just for the carb content in meals higher in protein/fats is insufficient.
In non diabetics and people with 'mild' or early T2, insulin is released when protein is ingested and indeed the G and N paper mentions that fat also produced a release with their T2 subjects ('the addition of butter clearly stimulated an increase in insulin concentration in people with type 2 diabetes')
In T1s , if no insulin injected for these foods, then there will be no insulin. This paper shows that injecting according to the insulin index ( an index of insulin released for various foods in normal people) got far better results for higher protein meals. than accounting for insulin alone. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/10/2146.full
The T1s who mentioned needing to dose for non carb or low carb meals aren't alone. If I eat a meal high in fat/protein and low in carbs then I need more insulin than the carb count alone would suggest.
In a mixed meal I don't account for protein/fat but suspect that is because I have similar proportions of macronutrients in most meals and therefore my carb counting takes this into account.
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gfmoore
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Interesting philosophical point. Are there such things as facts? For me the answer is yes.
So, I drop a stone on my foot. It will fall and I will go: "ow, that hurt". Hypothesis or fact? I'd be a touch surprised if it just hung there. If it did then I'd have to hypothesise that I and the stone were both falling. The proof of this would be when I hit the concrete at a 100 mph and said: "ow!". I don't know what the stone would say.
Sorry, just kidding around ...
mcdonagh47
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Interesting philosophical point. Are there such things as facts? For me the answer is yes.
So, I drop a stone on my foot. It will fall
That's just a Hypothesis based on Newton's hypothesis about "gravity".
And its Wrong ! It depends where you are - in a gravity free environment the stone would just float away instead of "dropping" or "falling".
If the stone was made of black hole material or White Dwarf it would go through your foot, through the Earth and out the other side in the twinkling of an eye.
It would only need one occasion for the stone to float away instead of "falling" on your foot to prove your hypothesis/prediction/assumption wrong.
Would this lovely helpful chart answer the question? Give a few minutes to load, it's complicated.
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content...ral_Information/metabolic_pathways_poster.pdf
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content...ral_Information/metabolic_pathways_poster.pdf
Ian DP
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Protein most certainly raises my blood sugar levels, no doubt about it at all.
I have a few working beta cells left still producing a little insulin. On a LcHf diet I can control my BG levels without insulin and without meds. I consume less than 50g carbs per day and my protein varies from just under 100g to around 150g per day. Whenever if I have a few high protein days, my BG levels rise, often not straight away, sometimes even days later.
For example, a few weeks back I thought I would up my protein level in order to put on a little weight (my BMI is 21), nothing really happened for 3 days, then I noticed my BG levels at pre breakfast had risen by one unit (from 6s to 7s), I reduced my protein levels immediately, but it took 3 days to get them back down again. No change in carbs, just protein.
My rule of thumb is 10g protein = 5g carbs.... This is what my meter tells me.... But not 2hr later, more like 4 hrs later and then only a slight increase in BG levels but for a much longer time.
I am now gradually cutting back on my protein levels, and my pre breakfast readings are coming down (now mid 5s) but my weight also seems to be coming down...... No carb changes, just protein.
Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 within weeks, but presently still LADA taking no insulin or medication, and striving to keep my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 in order to keep as many insulin making pancreas beta cells as possible for as long as I can.
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I have a few working beta cells left still producing a little insulin. On a LcHf diet I can control my BG levels without insulin and without meds. I consume less than 50g carbs per day and my protein varies from just under 100g to around 150g per day. Whenever if I have a few high protein days, my BG levels rise, often not straight away, sometimes even days later.
For example, a few weeks back I thought I would up my protein level in order to put on a little weight (my BMI is 21), nothing really happened for 3 days, then I noticed my BG levels at pre breakfast had risen by one unit (from 6s to 7s), I reduced my protein levels immediately, but it took 3 days to get them back down again. No change in carbs, just protein.
My rule of thumb is 10g protein = 5g carbs.... This is what my meter tells me.... But not 2hr later, more like 4 hrs later and then only a slight increase in BG levels but for a much longer time.
I am now gradually cutting back on my protein levels, and my pre breakfast readings are coming down (now mid 5s) but my weight also seems to be coming down...... No carb changes, just protein.
Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 within weeks, but presently still LADA taking no insulin or medication, and striving to keep my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 in order to keep as many insulin making pancreas beta cells as possible for as long as I can.
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phoenix
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You know I'm positive that they missed out a hydrocarbon in the middle of it all.
it should be like this:
but seriously we don't even know if everything is correct.
Humans aren't supposed to be able to convert fat to glucose, it's the archetypical trick question and textbooks say that they can't. Maybe they can
http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002116
(don't expect anyone to read it, it is a highly theoretical paper, using computer modelling describing feasible pathways for the production of glucose via acetone)
If true (and it really is hypothetical) then it explains why people with T1 may need to inject bolus insulin for everything.
MrsB
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I did not realise this fact/theory when I started low carb and got very irritated by my BG going from 6 to 15 in a short time when all I ate were pork chops, lettuce, cucumber and cheese! I am definitely on the side of injecting for protein!
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