Bizzarre reaction to low carb diet

Mandarin

Active Member
Messages
33
I started lowering my carb intake a few weeks ago and my BS reading improved immediately and so i thought that I had got a good handle on controlling my sugars.

At the weekend I decided to be stricter with the carbs and have been following a high protien/low carb diet (I must admit that the food I am eating now is delicious) and have reduced them to around 40g per day.

I started having 2 scrambled eggs for breakfast (which as far as I can tell has 0 carbs)made with a little butter and a splash of semi milk. On Monday Before breakfast I was at 4.6, ate the eggs 0 carbs = 0 insulin but by lunch time I was up to 17.6!!!Even allowing for the milk surely I should not have had such a high reading!
So I thought that maybe I was coming down with something or was unconciously stressing.

Since then my sugars have been rocketing between 14 and 24. I am still using the same ratio of carbs/insulin and have not been ill.

It seems that the less carbs I eat the higher the ratio needs to be.
I experimented with having toast this morning - same ratio. 5.2 before breakfast and 5.7 lunch time!

I have got the new insulin pen that measures in 1/2 doses and so my insulin intake is more accurate and have made sure that I am measuring correctly ie 2 clicks = 1 unit rather than 2 = 2 with the 1 unit pen.

The only things I have changed in my day to day routine is the low carbs and the new pen.

It is so frustrating as I started out the new diet with such positive ressults!

Does anyone have any advice or know if there is something I am not understanding?

Any advice would be very greatfully received!!
 

chocoholic

Well-Known Member
Messages
831
I'm sure there are peeps better qualified than me to answer your query but I seem to remember my diabetes nurse telling me that if your blood sugars go <b>too</b> low, they can suddenly shoot up quite high afterwards. Is it possible this has happened to you?
 

Mandarin

Active Member
Messages
33
I am reasonably hypo sensitive and generally feel it if I go below 3.6, I am not aware of any hypos in the last week and I havnt had a single reading below 14. I religiously check 4 times a day.
 

Mandarin

Active Member
Messages
33
Just a little extra

It appears that I need my normal ratio 1.5 units per 10g carbs + 3 or 4 extra per meal. as I am having to correct with that amount each time!
 

fergusc

Well-Known Member
Messages
131
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Mandarin,

It's a common mistake if you've been taught to carb count and disregard the glucose generating capability of protein. In the absense of carbohydrates, about 1/3 of the protein you consume can be converted to glucose. Just because you're not eating carbs doesn't mean you can stop taking insulin.

I need 3 units of insulin (Humalog) in the morning to cover 2 scrambled eggs and 2 slices of bacon. Without the insulin, I'd go very high too. With the insulin I stay absolutely on the level.

All the best,

fergusc
 

Mandarin

Active Member
Messages
33
Thanks fergus, I had no idea about the protein.
As we appear to need roughly the same amout for breakfast could you tell me what your ratio/correcting doses are. I obviously need to do some experimenting with my insulin and it would be good to have some sort of guideline to follow.
 

fergusc

Well-Known Member
Messages
131
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Hi Mandarin,

I'm happy to help if I can. Through trial (& error!) I found that if my blood glucose is between 3.8 and 5.2 first thing, as it usually is, then 3 units of humalog as I start to eat will keep me level till lunchtime. If it's slightly lower, an extra slice of bacon will budge me up without overshooting. Bad boy bonus. If it is between 5.2 and 6.5, an extra half unit will be enough of a correction dose. I never seem to be any higher than that.

You're not alone about the protein thing though. I spoke to a DAFNE dietician who didn't realise it either. They only seem to think of the effect of carbohydrate and ignore the effect of protein. They also disregard the effect that fat has in slowing down the release of sugar into the bloodstream.

All the best,

fergusc
 

Mandarin

Active Member
Messages
33
So if fat slows down the release of sugar, how do you reflect that with insulin?
I always inject <i>before</i> I eat, so if I am having a fatty meal, ie cheese, meat etc should I inject later or get a slower acting insulin such as Actrapid? And roughly how much longer will it take to release the sugars.
Also do you take into accout the amount of protien you are eating and calculate your insulin based on that?
Sorry if this sounds like the third degree but this seems like my best chance of getting control and I want to get it right!
Do you know of a book or a web site that will explain all these things (in simple terms)
 

fergusc

Well-Known Member
Messages
131
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Hi Mandarin,

Those are excellent questions!
It depends upon so many variables that make it very difficult for me to give you precise advice. You will have to see how it effects you.

It will partly depend upon the insulin you're using. Fast acting insulins like Humalog and Novorapid have their peak activity around 60 minutes after injecting and tail off after 2 hours or so. Regular insulins like Humulin are longer lasting and their peak is less pronounced. I think they're probably better suited to a diet with fewer fast acting carbs and more protein and fat.

I'm going to ask for a Humulin prescription when I next visit the clinic and see whether that improves my blood sugars. At the moment, I sometimes inject just after I've eaten so that the sugars are hitting my system as the insulin is starting to work. Trial and error, as I said, but it works reasonably well for me.

The downside with a regular insulin, of course, is that it takes much longer after injecting before it starts to work, so it's not great if you're eating out for example.

As for the amount of protein, I think it pays to be fairly consistent from meal to meal. That said, if I'm feeling greedy and overdo it, the consequences are fairly minimal - not like eating an extra couple of slices of bread, for instance!

I can recommend a book entitled Diabetes Solution, by Dr Richard Bernstein, which is full of great information on issues like this.

All the best,

fergusc
 

Mandarin

Active Member
Messages
33
Thanks Fergus.

I have ordered the book from Amazon and should get it this week.
I have started to count the carbs <i>and</i> add 3 units per meal and my sugars over the last 2 days have been consistantly between 7 and 9 thanks to your advice
Hopefully the book will give me the knowledge to be able to fine tune it a little more

Could you tell me what happens to your weight if you are already within an ideal weight range?

I have lost 5lbs since the beginning of last week- it is possible that it has something to do with the high sugars I have been having, but does the low carb diet allow you to reach your ideal weight and then maintain it or will I need to start including some carbs.

I am lucky and do not have a weight problem but am a little worried that I will end up size zero in no time
 

fergusc

Well-Known Member
Messages
131
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Hi Mandarin,

I think the Bernstein book will be one of the best investments you could make.

As for your weight, I'm guessing you're Type 1 if you're already close to a healthy weight? I lost 4 stone when I went low carb, but then I needed to! My BMI has been 21.5 - 22 throughout the 7 years since I started, and I'm still enjoying the novelty of that.

As far as I can gather, most people find their weight will be in the absolutely normal range on a low-carb diet. If you lose a little at first, it will probably come back in a few weeks time as lean muscle as a result of the added protein. You won't need the carbs if you need to gain a little weight - a little more protein will be very effective.

Let me know when your book arrives!

All the best,

fergusc
 

Mandarin

Active Member
Messages
33
Well my book finally arrived on Friday and It has seems pretty good.
I discovered a few things that I didnt know such as the fatty deposits on my eyelids are actually caused by my diabetes and may disappear as I get my sugars under control.
I havent read much of it yet but feel that there is a lot of positive information in it.

So much so that I have taken up a new hobby - I have started gliding and actually took the controls yesterday which was my third flight. ( my first one I just spent the whole flight holding on to the straps for dear life)

Any way thats beside the point, I just wanted to say that I am feeling much more positive about the whole diabetes thing after spending the last 8 years fighting for and being unable to maintain any sort of control. Last week I managed to keep my sugars between 4 and 7.5 for 6 whole days with not one single rogue reading.

I havn't lost any more weight and my BMI is 22.4.

Everything seems to be looking up and my other half reckons that I am not having anywhere near as many mood swings - he has even started to lose a little weight as well.

Im sure I will be back with more questions but for now Thanks Fergus!!! :D
 

fergus

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,439
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Great stuff Mandarin,

I'm looking forward to having another freaky eater on my side! Bernstein's book is such a valuable resource on all sorts of diabetes issues.

I went low carb a couple of years before I discovered Dr B, and felt that absolutely everyone disagreed with what I was doing. Eating fat made you, well, fat and besides, everyone needs lots of carbs, especially diabetics, I was continually told. When I found the book, I was thrilled skinny to find I wasn't alone and there were lots of other diabetics out there who'd rescued their health by ditching the carbs.

With a BMI of 22.4, you surely don't need to lose any weight? Sounds like you're right on the money there.

All the best,

fergus
 

loopy-loo

Member
Messages
20
Hi there!
Another freaky eater here.
When I was first diagnosed I cut carbs drastically, but still had trouble keeping within good bg's levels, then i was started on insulin and told I needed to eat carb based meals.
Well 7yrs later, taking more and more insulin, eating more and more pasta, getting bigger and bigger, and not great control either.
Thought back to how it was in the beginning and after reading loads of posts on here, took the plunge and followed the Bernstein way.
I have only been doing it for 7 days but I can honestly say I have never had such good bs levels.
They tend to hold to hold steady around the 5.5 mark which is fantastatic for me. (they would regularly swing form 14 to 3) Have woken up with a reading in the 4s most mornings, cannot express how good that feels!
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for passing on your knowledge, I have learnt so much since reading this forum. :eek:

ps,- I noticed that you (fergusc) are about to change to humulin, I am on this at the moment and am just about to be switched from insulatard to detimar, and from humulin S to novorapid. Am worried that this is the wrong thing to do, how have you found it being on the fast acting and low carb?
They say to inject 20mins before eating, however I have found this to very impractical.
 

fergus

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,439
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Hi LoopyLoo,

One day the NHS will realise the madness of encouraging diabetics to base their meals on starchy carbs, but it probably won't be any time soon. Best not to hold our breath, then. I have 2 T1 friends who both struggle with their weight and their blood sugars but MUST eat bread and pasta because their doctors have told them to. I'm on a mission to save them from themselves!

I got myself some Humulin S last week to see if it would help in the quest for completely normal blood sugars. The downside is that I need to inject 40 minutes before eating, which takes quite a bit of adjustment compared to pit-stop Humalog. I felt the Humalog would sometimes push me a little low after eating, before digestion could catch up with it. So far, the Humulin seems to work very well, though. It's always a bit of a risk changing meds, but I haven't felt myself dropping too low an hour or 2 after eating since I made the change. It certainly seems to last longer too, which has completely prevented me going over my 5.5 threshold. I do use Humalog for lunch though, because of the timing issue. it's great advantage is that I can inject just before I eat. It's also what I'll use whenever I have to do a correction dose.

So, I think the Humulin is going to work, once I've learned to plan ahead a bit better. Maybe you could think about keeping a prescription for both Humulin s and Novorapid? Please let me know what you decide to do!

All the best,

fergus
 

loopy-loo

Member
Messages
20
Hi fergus,
Hopefully one day you will manage to convert them! Surely, when they see how well you manage your bs' levels they realise the madness!?
Glad that the humulin s seems to be working out ok for you, I always struggle to inject 40mins before eating, I think the closest I ever get is 20mins, which is a major feat of forward planning for me!

Still yet to receive my new insulins as the DSN was poorly, but think I will probably concentrate on the switch from insulutard to detimir for a few weeks before i start fiddling with the bolus! Already split my basal dose and was hoping to loose one of the injections but have been told that this is unlikely with detimir - oh well. :?

Good suggestion for keeping both the humulin S and novorapid going, will probably do that, but have found with the humulin S that you can have a hypo 'out of nowhere' just because it last that much longer. Also, have asked for a half dose pen for the novorapid, (don't know if I'll get it yet) and would have to ask for another for the humulin as it's lilly, already feel like I'm a major drain on the nhs with my 10 test stips a day! Will have to save that one up. :)

ps, can i ask - as you follow a low carb diet - do you eat tomatoes? Sorry if thats a bit random, I know Dr B's book says to give them a miss, but I'm really missing bolognaise :roll:
I've only been following the diet for nearly two weeks now, dont mind not having the pasta, bread and potatoes, feel so much better, but would kill for a tin of toms!

Regards
lindsey
 

sugar

Well-Known Member
Messages
135
Hi All,

Well, I am not a freaky eater...yet, but Fergus 's results have encouraged me to give it ago once my baby is born...believe me, if I switched diets now, my body wouldn't cope..but I can't argue with results like you achieve! Thanks for this post, I had no idea about the protein thing either!
 

fergus

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,439
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Hello again,

Loopy-Loo, Dr. B musn't find out, but a tin of toms is no biggie in my view. What, 14g of carbs in an entire tin? We made a lovely chicken dish on Monday with chicken, peppers, onions, garlic, chilli, mixed spice, a tin of toms and a healthy glug of wine. My wife and I shared it, and there was enough left over for dinner the next day too. Quick maths, I think that's 3.5g carbs from the tomatoes per meal!

I've never had an issue with tomatoes, but as with everything else, how they effect you is what's important. Oh, and a Greek salad of cucumber, red onion, black olives, feta cheese, tomatoes, olive oil and oregano is a regular treat throughout the summer too. Cannae whack it.

Sugar, it's great you're so enthusiastic about the low-carb thing. I'd love to hear how you get on. All the very best wishes to you and your bump.

fergus