Type 1: Prescription fine

CollieBoy

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2,974
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Type 2
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Hi carb Foods
The wage levels of call centre staff usually determine the caliber of those answering the 'phones. If you are on near to minimum wage, are you going to raise a fuss on a customers behalf ? If you do will anyone further up the line act on your action?
These staff are usually restricted to following a set script and will have a set target in tesms of calls answered, not problems solved!
 
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tim2000s

Expert
Retired Moderator
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8,934
Type of diabetes
Type 1
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Other
Hi I'm new to forums as when my other half was diagnosed with type one diabetes 14 years ago , I knew nothing of diabetic forums. I came across your group by accident as he recieved a penalty charge letter last night - percription charges for £96.60. A little Google reseach later and here I've found this dicussion.
I am completely surprised that so many other diabetics are dealing with the same thing.
My partner, He has a valid medical exemption card which expires in 2018, so I rang the 0300 number this morning just to say "he's not paying, here's his number, here's his valid to and from dates." She of course did not want to speak to me, but among her protests I gave her the information and told her to note it down that we will not be paying for his insulin, then she said something like they have to double check if he is really diabetic as his needles could be used for other purposes, I said to her "impossible, he uses a pen and as much as you cam change the needle tip, they cannot be refilled." She told me to expect another letter of non compliance.
Just adding my 2 cents incase it helps someone
Wow! They didn't like you!
 

SybR

Member
Messages
9
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
I've just received a SECOND fine in the post. This is a SCANDAL. I was given lifetime exemption when diagnosed in 1999.
 
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SybR

Member
Messages
9
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
The fact is the NHS is in a mess because the government have no idea how to run a business. This isn't my opinion, you only have to look at just about everything they have poured money into. The road network is a classic example. They spend billions on pointless traffic calming schemes which don't work and in many cases make the roads more dangerous, yet have no money to fill in potholes. So they're trying to recoup as much money as possible from as many people as they can, and the general public are the easiest targets. That's what most governments do.

I don't have diabetes but have joined here to specifically comment on this thread. I am not a lawyer but played a major part in getting the law changed with regard to parking fines. When the control of "illegal" parking was switched from the police to the councils, many councils issued parking fines. However this was wrong - because only a court, not a council, can issue a fine. I pursued my local council telling them that their fines were invalid. Long story short, they eventually had to change the wording to the now-universlly used term "penalty charge". My local council were told to repay millions in illegal parking "fines" as a result, but never did do and certainly made no attempts to publish the fact.

The simple fact is they don't care - they just want your money; how or why they get it doesn't matter. The parking scam goes on, needless double yellow lines absolutely everywhere making it all but impossible to legally park in most towns, even on the outskirts, so you are at their mercy.


The important thing here is that you are NOT being fined. As I mentioned, ONLY a court can fine you. What the authority want you to do is pay up and not challenge it to make their life easier. They are not lawyers and do not know how to deal properly with a challenge. That's why a lot of you are getting wrong answers from them, geared to make you give up and pay up.

Worthy of note:

1. The NHS Business Services Authority took over dealing with the issue of prescription charges in September 2014 so they're not likely to bring up anything before that date.

2. The court will NOT investigate you. The court will only act upon evidence offered to it and make a decision based on that evidence.
For example, much like unpaid parking penalty notices, the court won't ask for the circumstances in which you were parked, they only want to know why you haven't paid. If you haven't disputed the issue prior to court you have little chance in court - in fact parking "fines" are now pretty much rubber stamped, you don't even get a hearing.

3. It is YOUR responsibility to get the required certificate or documentation, not that or the doctor or chemist. As with any point of the law, ignorance is no excuse.

4. The pharmacy do not have to see any evidence. They have the option to mark the prescription in the "Pharmacy use only - Evidence not seen" area on the rear of the prescription; that's them covered but not you.

How to fight:

If you don't have a certificate and should have, you're guilty. End of. You can appeal and tell them that you have never been asked for one, or you didn't know, or that the doctor/chemist advised you wrongly but if you do you are admitting your guilt so you're not putting up a very good fight. It's no good bleating about it, they are not interested in your feelings or your bad luck, they want your money.

First of all I would pay the prescription fee if you don't have a cert, using the automated service. don't ring them, the more you say, the more you incriminate yourself. DON'T pay the "fine" or penalty charge. I personally believe that you have a good case here and here's why:

The penalty charge is for non-payment of the prescription fees. This is made clear in the second letter you receive which tells you that you were asked to "verify your exemption status or pay the outstanding prescription charges plus a penalty charge." The important point here is that there does not appear to be a reason why the charge has been added, whether it's for non payment of the prescription charges or for not producing the evidence that you are entitled to free prescriptions (verifying your exemption status), but a court would likely take it that the charge was for the actual "offence", that being non-payment. So if you pay, they are less likely to pursue you through the courts for non-payment of the penalty charge. Courts do not take kindly to claims for small amounts.

Next, get your certificate as soon as possible and write to them telling tham that "although you believe you are entitled to free prescriptions you have paid the charge on this occasion as an act of good faith and that you have a valid certificate". DO NOT tell them you have only just obtained it, the more you say the more you are likely to put your foot in it.

Going to court


If it does go to court it is ESSENTIAL that you then file a counterclaim for your time. That means that the case is automatically transferred to your local county court, which again means that they are more likely to drop it especially if you live some considertable distance from their offices, as they would have to hire a local solicitor to fight their corner (this is usually how it is done). County courts generally only pay nominal expenses whatever it has cost them, thus defeating the object of trying to get money out of you.

However if you do happen to get a jobsworth who insists on continuing to pursue it you might be better off paying up. If it does go to court, you are relying on sympathy of the judge and when you're fighting the authorities you're unlikely to get it - remember, technically you ARE guilty of not having the correct documentation and tht's why you got the charge in the first place.

But read on - you can fight. It's not all bad news - this is all based on legislation in the National Health Service Act 2006. If you want to fight it is worth noting the following:

1. There is NOTHING in that Act that states that you have to prove exemption (or otherwise) within a certain time frame.
2. There is NOTHING in law to state that you even have to prove you were exempt at the time at all, although if the matter goes to court you might then have to prove it to the courts.

My point here is that if you want to fight you can gain some time at least by writing back to them asking them questions that the clerical staff dealing with the issue will not be able to answer, such as where in law does it state that you are asked to provide proof, where in law does it state that you must pay within a certain time frame and so on. What I am getting at is that if you pay for the prescription you then have a very good argument that the charges do not apply because there is NO LAW IN EXISTENCE that says you must pay for the prescription at the time you obtained the items on it, so once you have paid there really is no case to answer.

NOTE: This is only my opinion but I have thoroughly researched any legal facts and this system has worked for very many people.
1. Pay for the prescription.
2. Obtain your certificate.
3. Argue the toss about any other charges.

Remember if they take the matter to court they have to prove that you deliberately tried to obtain them free fraudulently if they decide to go down that route, which since all you diabetics are entitled to free prescriptions anyway that isn't going to happen. If they take you to court for non-payment of the penalty charges then you can put a decent case together based on the above. It's very rare it goes to court because it isn't worth their while, and it is only a civil action for recovery of an outstanding debt, not for non-payment of a fine because it isn't a fine - I repeat, it is very important to understand this.

Hope this helps.
 

SybR

Member
Messages
9
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
The fact is the NHS is in a mess because the government have no idea how to run a business. This isn't my opinion, you only have to look at just about everything they have poured money into. The road network is a classic example. They spend billions on pointless traffic calming schemes which don't work and in many cases make the roads more dangerous, yet have no money to fill in potholes. So they're trying to recoup as much money as possible from as many people as they can, and the general public are the easiest targets. That's what most governments do.

I don't have diabetes but have joined here to specifically comment on this thread. I am not a lawyer but played a major part in getting the law changed with regard to parking fines. When the control of "illegal" parking was switched from the police to the councils, many councils issued parking fines. However this was wrong - because only a court, not a council, can issue a fine. I pursued my local council telling them that their fines were invalid. Long story short, they eventually had to change the wording to the now-universlly used term "penalty charge". My local council were told to repay millions in illegal parking "fines" as a result, but never did do and certainly made no attempts to publish the fact.

The simple fact is they don't care - they just want your money; how or why they get it doesn't matter. The parking scam goes on, needless double yellow lines absolutely everywhere making it all but impossible to legally park in most towns, even on the outskirts, so you are at their mercy.


The important thing here is that you are NOT being fined. As I mentioned, ONLY a court can fine you. What the authority want you to do is pay up and not challenge it to make their life easier. They are not lawyers and do not know how to deal properly with a challenge. That's why a lot of you are getting wrong answers from them, geared to make you give up and pay up.

Worthy of note:

1. The NHS Business Services Authority took over dealing with the issue of prescription charges in September 2014 so they're not likely to bring up anything before that date.

2. The court will NOT investigate you. The court will only act upon evidence offered to it and make a decision based on that evidence.
For example, much like unpaid parking penalty notices, the court won't ask for the circumstances in which you were parked, they only want to know why you haven't paid. If you haven't disputed the issue prior to court you have little chance in court - in fact parking "fines" are now pretty much rubber stamped, you don't even get a hearing.

3. It is YOUR responsibility to get the required certificate or documentation, not that or the doctor or chemist. As with any point of the law, ignorance is no excuse.

4. The pharmacy do not have to see any evidence. They have the option to mark the prescription in the "Pharmacy use only - Evidence not seen" area on the rear of the prescription; that's them covered but not you.

How to fight:

If you don't have a certificate and should have, you're guilty. End of. You can appeal and tell them that you have never been asked for one, or you didn't know, or that the doctor/chemist advised you wrongly but if you do you are admitting your guilt so you're not putting up a very good fight. It's no good bleating about it, they are not interested in your feelings or your bad luck, they want your money.

First of all I would pay the prescription fee if you don't have a cert, using the automated service. don't ring them, the more you say, the more you incriminate yourself. DON'T pay the "fine" or penalty charge. I personally believe that you have a good case here and here's why:

The penalty charge is for non-payment of the prescription fees. This is made clear in the second letter you receive which tells you that you were asked to "verify your exemption status or pay the outstanding prescription charges plus a penalty charge." The important point here is that there does not appear to be a reason why the charge has been added, whether it's for non payment of the prescription charges or for not producing the evidence that you are entitled to free prescriptions (verifying your exemption status), but a court would likely take it that the charge was for the actual "offence", that being non-payment. So if you pay, they are less likely to pursue you through the courts for non-payment of the penalty charge. Courts do not take kindly to claims for small amounts.

Next, get your certificate as soon as possible and write to them telling tham that "although you believe you are entitled to free prescriptions you have paid the charge on this occasion as an act of good faith and that you have a valid certificate". DO NOT tell them you have only just obtained it, the more you say the more you are likely to put your foot in it.

Going to court


If it does go to court it is ESSENTIAL that you then file a counterclaim for your time. That means that the case is automatically transferred to your local county court, which again means that they are more likely to drop it especially if you live some considertable distance from their offices, as they would have to hire a local solicitor to fight their corner (this is usually how it is done). County courts generally only pay nominal expenses whatever it has cost them, thus defeating the object of trying to get money out of you.

However if you do happen to get a jobsworth who insists on continuing to pursue it you might be better off paying up. If it does go to court, you are relying on sympathy of the judge and when you're fighting the authorities you're unlikely to get it - remember, technically you ARE guilty of not having the correct documentation and tht's why you got the charge in the first place.

But read on - you can fight. It's not all bad news - this is all based on legislation in the National Health Service Act 2006. If you want to fight it is worth noting the following:

1. There is NOTHING in that Act that states that you have to prove exemption (or otherwise) within a certain time frame.
2. There is NOTHING in law to state that you even have to prove you were exempt at the time at all, although if the matter goes to court you might then have to prove it to the courts.

My point here is that if you want to fight you can gain some time at least by writing back to them asking them questions that the clerical staff dealing with the issue will not be able to answer, such as where in law does it state that you are asked to provide proof, where in law does it state that you must pay within a certain time frame and so on. What I am getting at is that if you pay for the prescription you then have a very good argument that the charges do not apply because there is NO LAW IN EXISTENCE that says you must pay for the prescription at the time you obtained the items on it, so once you have paid there really is no case to answer.

NOTE: This is only my opinion but I have thoroughly researched any legal facts and this system has worked for very many people.
1. Pay for the prescription.
2. Obtain your certificate.
3. Argue the toss about any other charges.

Remember if they take the matter to court they have to prove that you deliberately tried to obtain them free fraudulently if they decide to go down that route, which since all you diabetics are entitled to free prescriptions anyway that isn't going to happen. If they take you to court for non-payment of the penalty charges then you can put a decent case together based on the above. It's very rare it goes to court because it isn't worth their while, and it is only a civil action for recovery of an outstanding debt, not for non-payment of a fine because it isn't a fine - I repeat, it is very important to understand this.

Hope this helps.
 

softgirl123

Well-Known Member
Messages
58
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Diet only
The first thing to realise from the wording in that screen shot is they are not fining anyone but are applying a penalty charge - in law there is a difference!

A Fine is issued by a court.

Penalty Charges are a sum decided by an organisation that claims that you have offended and they are inviting you to pay. If you decline payment they can take you to court for payment.
Take a look at internet articles about 'Parking Penalty Charges' and you will see the difference.
there should f been warningsin pharmacys and doctors surgerys.pharmists knew about this the people who give the fines should of informed pharmacys and doctors soon as it was in the pipe line.there should of been a notice .or before the pharmacy gave the medication which is free for diabetics and me with a thyroid problems.and checked that u have a medical excemption cert.with in 5 years.in my case i would of said no.as mine was given in 03.never checked so never used card.and i would have the choice to leave or pay and not get a penaltry charge.thats my argument .i changed my address no reminder.i can not remember what a letter said in 03.i changed my chemist and then got a fine.
 

caretaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
276
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
I've just received a SECOND fine in the post. This is a SCANDAL. I was given lifetime exemption when diagnosed in 1999.
sorry to hear this
when was the fines from and how much? i been done once .i have got a cert now i have been type 1 since 1973 .
Have you got a cert now.
I have now but still feel this is a disgrace.and will do my best to fight for our rights
What will they do next take guide dogs away from blind people because they didn't pay there dog licence
 

Spiker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,685
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
I've just received a SECOND fine in the post. This is a SCANDAL. I was given lifetime exemption when diagnosed in 1999.
If you can post proof of your 1999 lifetime exemption, some kind of official document, that would be massively helpful for all of us.
 

donnellysdogs

Master
Messages
13,233
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Type 1
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Pump
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People that can't listen to other people's opinions.
People that can't say sorry.
there should f been warningsin pharmacys and doctors surgerys.pharmists knew about this the people who give the fines should of informed pharmacys and doctors soon as it was in the pipe line.there should of been a notice .or before the pharmacy gave the medication which is free for diabetics and me with a thyroid problems.and checked that u have a medical excemption cert.with in 5 years.in my case i would of said no.as mine was given in 03.never checked so never used card.and i would have the choice to leave or pay and not get a penaltry charge.thats my argument .i changed my address no reminder.i can not remember what a letter said in 03.i changed my chemist and then got a fine.

All GP Practices were sent leaflets and a poster warning people to have exemption cards. These were sent out the latter part of last year. Its down to patients to look at leaflets. I know from our Practice that the majority of patients don't. They just walk in, watch tv and walk out again. Our Practice has the PPG that looks after the leaflets. We also printed all the info on a newsletter that our volunteers distribute.
 

Spiker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,685
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
All GP Practices were sent leaflets and a poster warning people to have exemption cards. These were sent out the latter part of last year. Its down to patients to look at leaflets. I know from our Practice that the majority of patients don't. They just walk in, watch tv and walk out again. Our Practice has the PPG that looks after the leaflets. We also printed all the info on a newsletter that our volunteers distribute.
Yeah but... Pharmacies prescription desks would have been the logical place to put the leaflets. I've never seen one, if they were ever sent to pharmacies.
 

Totto

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,831
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Its down to patients to look at leaflets. I know from our Practice that the majority of patients don't. They just walk in, watch tv and walk out again.
They get appointments to watch TV at your practice? That's unusual.
 
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softgirl123

Well-Known Member
Messages
58
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Diet only
good advice.i may pay for the prescription.whats the best way to pay do u think.
 

iHs

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,595
There is definitely not any leaflets or poster in my GP practice, nor in the adjacent pharmacy.

There is now a notice in my pharmacy (about A3 size) about the necessity to have an exemption certificate but is only visable when sitting down waiting for a prescription to be dispensed and the pharmacy assistant just asks for the prescription to be signed on the back and the relevant box to be ticked without asking to see proof of exemption. Very Bad :rolleyes:
 

donnellysdogs

Master
Messages
13,233
Type of diabetes
Type 1
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Pump
Dislikes
People that can't listen to other people's opinions.
People that can't say sorry.
They get appointments to watch TV at your practice? That's unusual.

Every morning it's Jeremy Kyle Show guaranteed.
The children have an area with a small tv and dvd's too!!
Wish we could get an income by advertising instead
 

softgirl123

Well-Known Member
Messages
58
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Diet only
There is definitely not any leaflets or poster in my GP practice, nor in the adjacent pharmacy.
there were nothing seen in my pharmacy i have wrote to head office stating it would be good to advice people they could get apenalty.before they took their medication for diabetics or thyroid.then u would have choice to take leave or pay avoiding a penaltry.pharmacys could of done more and doctors to help people.but theres no care any more.epecialy knowing befor we did.



Name of pharmacy removed.
 
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softgirl123

Well-Known Member
Messages
58
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Diet only
There is now a notice in my pharmacy (about A3 size) about the necessity to have an exemption certificate but is only visable when sitting down waiting for a prescription to be dispensed and the pharmacy assistant just asks for the prescription to be signed on the back and the relevant box to be ticked without asking to see proof of exemption. Very Bad :rolleyes:
i agree .