T2's - Taking on carbs after exercise?

[stuffedolive]

...... also looking at your training log you train hard, my own beliefs and experience tell me a LCHF diet may not be suited to your level of energy expenditure.....

I think you have hit the nail on the head Bravo2zero.
I'm not a great sleeper. I have an Iphone sleeptimer app and I'm only getting 4hours quality sleep a night with a couple of hours lighter/disturbed sleep. So, rather than being a diet thing, I think, I'm just not getting enough rest for the level of exercise I'm doing (2hrs a day). I had noticed that even my shorter runs were starting to suffer too as I was unable to hold a decent pace for 15 mins instead of the usual 45. As I have upped my training regime I have clearly gone beyond the point that my sleeping patterns can cope and I'm progressively going into the negative side of the balance.
So I'm going to back right off for a couple of weeks then start building back to a more focussed exercise regime with 3x runs per week as a rule and only one extra cardio session and weights session.
As for the sleep.... well that's a long standing problem caused by work stress which I can't seem to alter even though I've been retired for over a year.

 

[Bravo2zero]

I think you have hit the nail on the head Bravo2zero.
I'm not a great sleeper. I have an Iphone sleeptimer app and I'm only getting 4hours quality sleep a night with a couple of hours lighter/disturbed sleep. So, rather than being a diet thing, I think, I'm just not getting enough rest for the level of exercise I'm doing (2hrs a day). I had noticed that even my shorter runs were starting to suffer too as I was unable to hold a decent pace for 15 mins instead of the usual 45. As I have upped my training regime I have clearly gone beyond the point that my sleeping patterns can cope and I'm progressively going into the negative side of the balance.
So I'm going to back right off for a couple of weeks then start building back to a more focussed exercise regime with 3x runs per week as a rule and only one extra cardio session and weights session.
As for the sleep.... well that's a long standing problem caused by work stress which I can't seem to alter even though I've been retired for over a year.

Hi, rest is a big part of training as the training is, all the hard work you are doing is being lost due to a short recovery and no sleep and energy ( food)if that makes sense. I might get 1000 replays to this but my training and experience tells me you need carbs for energy and because I am new to diabetes I can not get my head around low carbs when someone is physically active

 

[stuffedolive]

Hi, rest is a big part of training as the training is, all the hard work you are doing is being lost due to a short recovery and no sleep and energy ( food)if that makes sense. I might get 1000 replays to this but my training and experience tells me you need carbs for energy and because I am new to diabetes I can not get my head around low carbs when someone is physically active

Honest Bravo2zero, you don't need carbs to exercise. I run competitively, cross-country, orienteering etc. OK I'm not the fastest but I'm performing t around 70% on the age -related performance measure if that means anything to you, so I'm by no means the slowest either.
I've been low-carbing for a while now and I was going fine until about November when I wound up the training another notch and I think since then I have gradually lost form. My diet didn't change over that time so I don't think that was to blame. Rather I think that like the govt I just spent to much (energy) and got into more debt. Time for a bit of austerity i.e. lying on the sofa a bit more. ;-)

 

[Bravo2zero]

Honest Bravo2zero, you don't need carbs to exercise. I run competitively, cross-country, orienteering etc. OK I'm not the fastest but I'm performing t around 70% on the age -related performance measure if that means anything to you, so I'm by no means the slowest either.
I've been low-carbing for a while now and I was going fine until about November when I wound up the training another notch and I think since then I have gradually lost form. My diet didn't change over that time so I don't think that was to blame. Rather I think that like the govt I just spent to much (energy) and got into more debt. Time for a bit of austerity i.e. lying on the sofa a bit more. ;-)

Hi
Reading your comments, you increased your training,same diet,you lost form due to I think no energy, so if you feel improvement is worth the risk why not increase your carbs for a month or 2 it might lower your other readings but you need to train. Plan B is the sofa
Take care
Dave
Who cares who wins as long as it's you

 

[ElyDave]

I think looking at your heart rate @stuffedolive that you are falling into the pattern of doing the easy sessions too hard, which is then affectibg your ability to recover for the harder sessions. It may then be that lack of recovery that is affecting your sleep rather than the other way round.

As well as experimenting with your volume, you could always back off the intensity of some sessions, a good guide being 180-age as a target maximum aerobic heart rate. I'd go for 60-70 of your time in that range, which should really encourage your ability to burn fats and should then work with your LCHF diet. If you haven't already look up Phil Maffetone, and also The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance by Phinney and Volek

70% is not bad going, for me it depends on the event and distance, I tend to be top third to top quartile at the mid range stuff, a bit better at the longer distances at the moment. One thing I'm finding though is that I'm getting more benefit from varying the training to include short shapr sessions and weights at certain times of the year rather than plugging away at the endurance year round. I'm also finding that to add volume it needs to be at a lower intensity.

Remember - Training = work + recovery

 

[ElyDave]

Hi, rest is a big part of training as the training is, all the hard work you are doing is being lost due to a short recovery and no sleep and energy ( food)if that makes sense. I might get 1000 replays to this but my training and experience tells me you need carbs for energy and because I am new to diabetes I can not get my head around low carbs when someone is physically active

Some can get away with it B2Z, others not so much. I can generally manage on about 100g a day, but when my training starts going longer for the ultramarathons, I need to up it on the long run days. Others go all out on the carbs and some can stick with the ketosis. You just need to fidn the right pattern for you

 

[Bravo2zero]

Some can get away with it B2Z, others not so much. I can generally manage on about 100g a day, but when my training starts going longer for the ultramarathons, I need to up it on the long run days. Others go all out on the carbs and some can stick with the ketosis. You just need to fidn the right pattern for you

Hi dave carb loading is what I did in a previous life, 80 mile trail races,marathons etc I stopped training long ago due to arthritis, I walk for fitness and complete Yorkshire 3 peaks every month
Diabetes is throwing up all sorts of dilemma,s for me,I have tried low carb but I get Hypo,s due to gliclazide,I now need to lose a stone in weight I have put weight on with the meds.i also take metformin now as well
Any answers
Dave

 

[stuffedolive]

Thanks guys for the responses.
I suppose I may be coming at this with over optimistic expectations as I used to be a reasonable club cyclist. Mostly time-trials and long distance Audax trials (200-600km). So I have an historic base of good fitness prior to the diabetes which came on during a 10yr break from cycling before I picked up running. I used to train over 20hrs a week on the bike around 200miles upto 400 some weeks so I consider my current level of exercise as very unexceptional. However, on the bike I was fuelled by massive amounts of carbs which is just not an option now.
As for my HR. My current max is about 180 so yes my long runs at 145-150 are a little over 80% which is too high. I'll have a rest and rein it back a bit next time and add a few more carbs in around that session. As for the poor sleep pattern, that predates the increase in exercise, but I'll keep working on it.

 

[Baruney]

Thanks guys for the responses.
I suppose I may be coming at this with over optimistic expectations as I used to be a reasonable club cyclist. Mostly time-trials and long distance Audax trials (200-600km). So I have an historic base of good fitness prior to the diabetes which came on during a 10yr break from cycling before I picked up running. I used to train over 20hrs a week on the bike around 200miles upto 400 some weeks so I consider my current level of exercise as very unexceptional. However, on the bike I was fuelled by massive amounts of carbs which is just not an option now.
As for my HR. My current max is about 180 so yes my long runs at 145-150 are a little over 80% which is too high. I'll have a rest and rein it back a bit next time and add a few more carbs in around that session. As for the poor sleep pattern, that predates the increase in exercise, but I'll keep working on it.

Hi stuffedolive

Good luck with the sleep. I'm a lousey sleeper too. What are you going to use as the extra carbs? I did the lydd half 20 miler on Sunday and added an atkins advantage brownie bar to the high5 zeros and pork scatchings. Nice consistent plod all the way round. None of the reported problems from the polyols but did finish with a higher bs than expected at 5.7. Not unhappy with that but was expecting much lower and am trying to work out what that is due to. Suspects are the atkins bar; the high hr (started circa 150 and rose to 170 progressively which was high compared to long runs training) or simply race exited ent and milage amount. Anyhow I have a 22 mile training run this Sunday so can re experiment. Have you tried a magnesium flake bath before bed to help with the sleep. Worth a look on YouTube.

 

[stuffedolive]

Hi stuffedolive

Good luck with the sleep. I'm a lousey sleeper too. What are you going to use as the extra carbs? I did the lydd half 20 miler on Sunday and added an atkins advantage brownie bar to the high5 zeros and pork scatchings. Nice consistent plod all the way round. None of the reported problems from the polyols but did finish with a higher bs than expected at 5.7. Not unhappy with that but was expecting much lower and am trying to work out what that is due to. Suspects are the atkins bar; the high hr (started circa 150 and rose to 170 progressively which was high compared to long runs training) or simply race exited ent and milage amount. Anyhow I have a 22 mile training run this Sunday so can re experiment. Have you tried a magnesium flake bath before bed to help with the sleep. Worth a look on YouTube.

Baruney, to fuel my long runs, I'll probably go for some porridge as an early breakfast - I don't like to run first thing as my aged body is inflexible at such an early hour and I am prone to injury. Then i'll take a bit of dried fruit, say apricots to add some carbs on the run and something like a chicken sandwich and milkshake after I finish to refill the tank.

Otherwise, I'll continue with LCHF and just pare back the training by cutting out some of those hour long cardio sessions and concentrate on the shorter more specific training sessions. So when I have recovered a bit, a week might look like: 3-4xrun (long run, orienteering event, 1hour club session, 30mins hill/intervals), 1x weights, 1xcircuits,. I'll do that almost until I do a 1/2 marathon mid May and then I'll back off the long run and replace it with a short speed session for the summer.

 

[ElyDave]

Hi stuffedolive

Good luck with the sleep. I'm a lousey sleeper too. What are you going to use as the extra carbs? I did the lydd half 20 miler on Sunday and added an atkins advantage brownie bar to the high5 zeros and pork scatchings. Nice consistent plod all the way round. None of the reported problems from the polyols but did finish with a higher bs than expected at 5.7. Not unhappy with that but was expecting much lower and am trying to work out what that is due to. Suspects are the atkins bar; the high hr (started circa 150 and rose to 170 progressively which was high compared to long runs training) or simply race exited ent and milage amount. Anyhow I have a 22 mile training run this Sunday so can re experiment. Have you tried a magnesium flake bath before bed to help with the sleep. Worth a look on YouTube.

Very likely to be the higher HR in combination with the race nerves and adrenaline. Remind me again are you T2?

 

[ElyDave]

Thanks guys for the responses.
I suppose I may be coming at this with over optimistic expectations as I used to be a reasonable club cyclist. Mostly time-trials and long distance Audax trials (200-600km). So I have an historic base of good fitness prior to the diabetes which came on during a 10yr break from cycling before I picked up running. I used to train over 20hrs a week on the bike around 200miles upto 400 some weeks so I consider my current level of exercise as very unexceptional. However, on the bike I was fuelled by massive amounts of carbs which is just not an option now.
As for my HR. My current max is about 180 so yes my long runs at 145-150 are a little over 80% which is too high. I'll have a rest and rein it back a bit next time and add a few more carbs in around that session. As for the poor sleep pattern, that predates the increase in exercise, but I'll keep working on it.

I wouldn't have said over optimistic, just perhaps not as trained as you used to be.

If you have decent records of those past sesions, it might be worth going back adn having a look at them again. One thing to look at would be your training intensities when you were doing those hours adn the TTs and Audaxes. I wonder whether you were doing more of the work at a lower intensity?

I'm going to see if I can find a link to a very interesting paper I read on training intensities in cross country skiers. They improved perfromance by reducing training time, but making better distinction between the training zones and strict control of how much of each zone. Sport specific of course, but the concept is worth it.

 

[stuffedolive]

thanks ElyDave.
In the old days I'm sure much of my training miles was low level. Although I did do a weekly 'bash' and weekly race at a high level of effort.
However, back to now, I had been increasing the low-level volume (65-80%MHR) to build endurance for my 1/2Marathon, but clearly some of this was >80% and there was just too much of it given the limited amount of sleep I get.
So yeah, I think less training but concentrating on quality is the way to go. I've just got to accept that until I start getting more rest then there have to be limits to my expectations

 

[Bravo2zero]

Baruney, to fuel my long runs, I'll probably go for some porridge as an early breakfast - I don't like to run first thing as my aged body is inflexible at such an early hour and I am prone to injury. Then i'll take a bit of dried fruit, say apricots to add some carbs on the run and something like a chicken sandwich and milkshake after I finish to refill the tank.

Otherwise, I'll continue with LCHF and just pare back the training by cutting out some of those hour long cardio sessions and concentrate on the shorter more specific training sessions. So when I have recovered a bit, a week might look like: 3-4xrun (long run, orienteering event, 1hour club session, 30mins hill/intervals), 1x weights, 1xcircuits,. I'll do that almost until I do a 1/2 marathon mid May and then I'll back off the long run and replace it with a short speed session for the summer.

 

[Baruney]

Hi ElyDave

Yes I am T2. Other sure how to put in my signature seen loads on the main we site but Doesn't seem to show on the mobile app.

 

[Bebo321]

Hi dave carb loading is what I did in a previous life, 80 mile trail races,marathons etc I stopped training long ago due to arthritis, I walk for fitness and complete Yorkshire 3 peaks every month
Diabetes is throwing up all sorts of dilemma,s for me,I have tried low carb but I get Hypo,s due to gliclazide,I now need to lose a stone in weight I have put weight on with the meds.i also take metformin now as well
Any answers
Dave

Hi there,
Have you considered speaking to your doctor about reducing or even stopping the gliclazide in order that you can continue a low-carb diet? I would imagine that diet and exercise are preferable to a drug that encourages your pancreas to secrete insulin. It might be worth a chat, because it sounds as though you're pro-active - something which should be encouraged and made easier for you.

 

[Bravo2zero]

Hi there,
Have you considered speaking to your doctor about reducing or even stopping the gliclazide in order that you can continue a low-carb diet? I would imagine that diet and exercise are preferable to a drug that encourages your pancreas to secrete insulin. It might be worth a chat, because it sounds as though you're pro-active - something which should be encouraged and made easier for you.

Thanks Bebo321 I have been thinking the same for a while. My initial HBA1c was 146 so I was put on gliclazide then but after 3 month my reading was 59 then put on metformin, I suffer readings under 4 some times under 3, the morning Gliclazide was stopped but I still get some under 4 and some under 3
I have stated to eat less carbs and more protein but I am worried this will cause more hypo,s after I treat it with carbs it goes above 8.5
Any ideas
Take care
Dave

 

[Morgano]

Hi @stuffedolive

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall Peter Attia saying that if you if you calculate how much carb you have burnt through after a period of exercise, and then consume that within 30 mins of finishing, you don't get knocked out of ketosis.
Also, just as a point of interest, acetic acid is supposed to be great at improving glycogen uptake after a period of exercise (if you can bear the taste!)
You might like to do some research around these points to see if they help you achieve better results.

Peter Attia also recommends this product as a very useful carb that has a very small insulin response. From his blog, he seems to use it as part of his training routine: http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/introduction-to-superstarch-part-i

 

[Baruney]

He must be a very rich man. Have you seen the price of this stuff in the UK even though it was developed in Scotland!

 

[Bebo321]

Thanks Bebo321 I have been thinking the same for a while. My initial HBA1c was 146 so I was put on gliclazide then but after 3 month my reading was 59 then put on metformin, I suffer readings under 4 some times under 3, the morning Gliclazide was stopped but I still get some under 4 and some under 3
I have stated to eat less carbs and more protein but I am worried this will cause more hypo,s after I treat it with carbs it goes above 8.5
Any ideas
Take care
Dave

Hi @Bravo2zero (Dave),
Hmmm - certainly under 3 is low, and is surprising if you are no longer on gliclazide.
I would be interested to hear other's views on this because they may have personal experience themselves.
I guess your low could be put down to a poor test strip reading - did you do only the one BG test when you were low? if that happens again it might be worth double checking.
Metformin works by suppressing gluconeogenesis within the liver - basically it surpresses the liver from secreting glucose from sources other than glycogen. Theoretically if you become a little hypo, your body should still have the capacity to manage this. A low BG causes your pancreas to secrete glucagon - this triggers you liver to secrete glucose through glycogenolysis (so this is the process where it converts glycogen into glucose) What I am trying to say is that metformin shouldn't impact on your body's natural ability to manage it's BG level. Consequently in theory your body will naturally take over and self-manage your 'low' without the need for taking on board more glucose.
Speak to your doctor about his however - keep a good record of the BGs you are recording and if you get a low reading in future, check at least once again just to be sure and take an average.