Newcastle diet starting Monday, done it once who gonna join me on my journey??

[Indy51]

I want to thank everyone who has chimed in on my recent post with opinions. I am serious about putting my T2 into remission Yet I also sense that I am living somewhat in the unknown. Some folks still have a BMI north of 25 and are now in T2DM remission and are working off to a BMI of say 24 or so. Yet with my BMI now at 23 and sketchy numbers on my FBGs I am very concerned if the actual path I chose, which was slow and steady weight loss was the right move? While I'll not give up the ground already attained, if I had a do-over @ a BMI of 27 I might have gone ND / NP. Then, if with that shock to the system, when I got a BMI of 25 I'd have cleared the pancreas and liver of the issues and it would then be my choice to decide where I'd like to finish my NP ND at (say) a BMI of 24. Now I am at a BMI of 23 and still not seeing the end in sight..This is the real concern as far as It faces me right now. As a bit of background I've actually lost close on 26% of my body weight or 63lbs without becoming un-diabetic yet.

Does this make more sense?

That's pretty much the way I feel too. I'm now at my lowest weight in 15 years and have been using a compressed eating window/fasting 16 hrs a day for 3 months, but my fasting BG has never normalised and I still get spikes if I go above about 25g carbs at any meal. I'm going to try to continue losing weight, but I'm pretty much convinced that weight loss isn't going to be a magic bullet for me either. Maybe if I finally get below the 80cm waist measurement, but I've pretty much lost hope that it will happen for me.

 

[RobOwen]

@Bewildered

You're in better shape than me. I'm doing all off my own bat. My doc isn't too thrilled about Professor Taylor ("& his quackery") as he might say. He just wants me sick but well enough to come in every 3-4 months for another checkup..

One more thing that has come to my attention too is that both @Pipp & @RobOwen have BMIs in excess of 25 but are both coming up with non-diabetic numbers. My BMI is about 23 now and I am still coming up with diabetic numbers. While Pipp has mentioned that there could be a miriad of reasons why someone is still diabetic might a good question to be asked of us all is that @Steve50 is there a way to see if its the rapidity of the ND weigh loss is better than the "Gradual (traditional) weight loss" that puts one earlier into non-diabetic numbers? This might be question that Professor Taylor wants answered? Thinking out loud by the beach?!?! ?

Personally I'd have preferred if my body had started giving me non-diabetic numbers at around a BMI of 24. I am not 100% convinced it is really healthy to have a BMI of low 20's..

@Living-by-the-beach I've just re-read a document from Prof Taylor on the ND with some FAQ's and the 4th question is, "Could it work for people with a normal BMI?"

I don't know if you've previously seen this page, but I found it useful re-reading it several weeks after I first saw it before starting out on my ND.

 

[AndBreathe]

@Living-by-the-beach I've just re-read a document from Prof Taylor on the ND with some FAQ's and the 4th question is, "Could it work for people with a normal BMI?"

I don't know if you've previously seen this page, but I found it useful re-reading it several weeks after I first saw it before starting out on my ND.

My problem with words like "normal" is they're a bit like "nice", in that one man's normal is anthers' abnormal. If the big D was driven by BMI I could buy it, but we seem to be dealing with PFT (plus all the other ethnicity, medical conditions, pancreatic/beta cell functionality) which is less easy to define, consistently.

 

[Steve50]

My problem with words like "normal" is they're a bit like "nice", in that one man's normal is anthers' abnormal. If the big D was driven by BMI I could buy it, but we seem to be dealing with PFT (plus all the other ethnicity, medical conditions, pancreatic/beta cell functionality) which is less easy to define, consistently.

I also think it has something to do with how much recovery is needed - associated with how long you have had T2.

 

[RobOwen]

My problem with words like "normal" is they're a bit like "nice", in that one man's normal is anthers' abnormal. If the big D was driven by BMI I could buy it, but we seem to be dealing with PFT (plus all the other ethnicity, medical conditions, pancreatic/beta cell functionality) which is less easy to define, consistently.

I agree, but in this instance I interpreted it as the "normal" range for BMI index purposes, so quite quantitative. There is also reference to PFT (personal fat threshold) in the document when qualifying this answer.

The main purpose of re-posting the document was to suggest that ND may work for individuals who are not overweight.

 

[Steve50]

There seems to be few absolutes (i.e. BMI, Fasting Blood readings, rate of weight loss) but there are some clear principles. i.e.

1. The lower you can keep your blood readings below 7 - the better chance you have of recovery
2. Getting below your PFT is key
3. The sooner you can achieve either of these after becoming T2 the better

It's not about 'normal' - I agree - this is subjective. It is about reversal - and is personal. I don't think you will find an objective formula here.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I don't think it's just about reaching a BMI, or x% of starting weight. If it was then by now, a more formulaic way of approaching this problem would be developing. Obviously, that could be the case for Prof Taylor but we don't know it yet, but that is purely speculation on my part. The big problem is we have no idea at what point we tipped over the PFT and where we might tip back over it into remission/resolution or whatever you want to call it. Clearly, nor do we know if it is the same point of fat carrying that would tip anyone back into a diabetic state from a remission. All anyone can do is give it their best shot and take their weight to a place they feel comfortable - whether that be defined by weight, BMI, appearance, feedback from family/physicians or whatever.

I stick with my belief that whilst there are a variety of ways to skin this metaphoric cat, unfortunately some people will never achieve that - by virtue of pancreatic damage, un-sustainability, other health considerations of a million and one other factors.

Apart from one, diagnostic HbA1c, all of my HbA1cs have been well into the non-diabetic ranges. I have no idea at what point of my journey to a skinny BMI of 18.4 I crossed my personal threshold. If it was non-diabetic fasting finger-prick tests, it would have been within a month of my diagnosis. If it was based on the non-diabetic HbA1c, it would have been the first available 3 after that. But, for me, I could not risk resting there. I felt I wanted to replicate my bloods and trim right back, as I saw that as a fundamental aid to keeping my blood scores down.

As I have said many times. I have not followed the ND. I admire those who do. Had I discovered it within my early weeks post-diagnosis, I might have given it a go, but I don't believe it is the silver bullet solution. And to reiterate, I don't believe there is a solution for everyone. But, I do know I have been very fortunate and don't intend to stress my body as I obviously did before.

@AndBreathe

Thank you ever so much for sharing your opinions. I am sorry if I am coming across as scared, but when i woke this morning feeling tingling in my calf (and since checking my weight- i'm now down 65lbs). When at church this morning I asked for prayers for not only me but also others. It is almost alarming that you've felt the need to come down in weight to a BMI of 18.4 and I pray that I don't have to go that far. With a height of 6'4" that BMI would bring me to 151lbs or less than my wife who's about 5'9". Yes one can say confidently, diabetes is difficult. Yet then again Carlos Cerventes did lose 100 lbs to enjoy his current health. Scary indeed..

AB & yes I'll re-read Andrew Colvin's blog again..

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

@Living-by-the-beach I've just re-read a document from Prof Taylor on the ND with some FAQ's and the 4th question is, "Could it work for people with a normal BMI?"

I don't know if you've previously seen this page, but I found it useful re-reading it several weeks after I first saw it before starting out on my ND.

@RobOwen

Thanks for that link. I just re-read that piece by Professor Taylor. I suppose I've now become addicted to cycling I've built a life around cycling to that corner on the beach and when I get there I frequently stop for a few moments and pray for me and others. So when I went for a gentle bike ride on Sunday while drinking 3 shakes a day routine I figured out the calorie burn was 800 cals or all the food of that day. I fell of the wagon yesterday somewhat but I'll get back on today..

 

[AndBreathe]

@AndBreathe

Thank you ever so much for sharing your opinions. I am sorry if I am coming across as scared, but when i woke this morning feeling tingling in my calf (and since checking my weight- i'm now down 65lbs). When at church this morning I asked for prayers for not only me but also others. It is almost alarming that you've felt the need to come down in weight to a BMI of 18.4 and I pray that I don't have to go that far. With a height of 6'4" that BMI would bring me to 151lbs or less than my wife who's about 5'9". Yes one can say confidently, diabetes is difficult. Yet then again Carlos Cerventes did lose 100 lbs to enjoy his current health. Scary indeed..

Just to clarify, I made a conscious decision to trim well down into the "Healthy" weight band of BMI. My aim was to get to about a third of the way from the bottom of that band, and stabilise. But. And it's quite a big but, finding balance so that there is neither weight loss nor gain was far, far trickier to achieve than I had envisaged. I have written quite a lot about this phase on the forum, and some others have found similar phenomenon. So, for a while, my weight continued to drop, and since I achieved an even keel, I haven't gained any weight, and I'm not particularly trying any more. I really don't want to initiate a weight yo-yo scenario.

On the topic of slenderness; our loved ones sometimes find the changes we go through very difficult. My OH is very slim, and for the years I have known him, has always been so. His weight meanders within a band of around 7-10lbs. Like many "normal" people, he might gain a little around high days and holiday, then lose it again through activity and "being good" after a period of over-indulgence, so he found my prolonged period of abstentions a challenge, because I think he felt he couldn't do it, if he had been the one diagnosed. Actually, I know he would have just got on with it, but watching our loved ones go through difficult change is hard.

I hope you achieve your objective.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Just to clarify, I made a conscious decision to trim well down into the "Healthy" weight band of BMI. My aim was to get to about a third of the way from the bottom of that band, and stabilise. But. And it's quite a big but, finding balance so that there is neither weight loss nor gain was far, far trickier to achieve than I had envisaged. I have written quite a lot about this phase on the forum, and some others have found similar phenomenon. So, for a while, my weight continued to drop, and since I achieved an even keel, I haven't gained any weight, and I'm not particularly trying any more. I really don't want to initiate a weight yo-yo scenario.

On the topic of slenderness; our loved ones sometimes find the changes we go through very difficult. My OH is very slim, and for the years I have known him, has always been so. His weight meanders within a band of around 7-10lbs. Like many "normal" people, he might gain a little around high days and holiday, then lose it again through activity and "being good" after a period of over-indulgence, so he found my prolonged period of abstentions a challenge, because I think he felt he couldn't do it, if he had been the one diagnosed. Actually, I know he would have just got on with it, but watching our loved ones go through difficult change is hard.

I hope you achieve your objective.

@AndBreathe

I've a new endocrinologist that I start with in 5 weeks. My neurologist might be a bit alarmed with my recent weight loss but I'll bring in all the supporting evidence from Taylor and others about NP/ND and I can only describe to the neurologist what my body feels like (ghastly) even when I've relatively low sugars and how it motivates me to be treating a disease rather than treating symptoms.

I have a friend who's massively overweight and T2 and I've reached out to him and he refuses support. Even with a phone call he was biting my head off yesterday. I am fearful that he's got bigger complications. I've entreated him to come on bike rides and enjoy life but I can't get his feet on the pedals of a bike!

As for my length of T2 I am only diagnosed 15 months ago and in that time I'm down from 30.7BMI to 22.6 39" waist to 33"-34". My weight is off a 1lb from yesterday even falling off the NP wagon! I'll keep soldering away at this problem. Good luck to us all.

 

[mohanankur]

Very interesting discussion going on here, not want to interrupt but want to record my update on ND so far. I started Nd on BMI of 22, I know it's like scary as I might become under weight soon but I have no choice. Sometimes I am in doubt if this works or not, or will it work for me or not, but to be honest whatever the possibility is I want to take. I am only 37 and recently diagnosed. On ND it's not too bad so far, my numbers have gone down drastically. Yesterday I saw my lowest so far which was 4.0 after I reached home. After the shake about 12 grams of shake I rise to early 6 but then I go back to late 4s. My fasting this morning was 4.2 lowest fasting I ever saw. 6 th day today, weight not as much down as I was expecting, but did lose about 1.5kg. I do not want to lose a lot as I am already skinny. I have faced numb hands on one night, little headache today, apart from that I seem to do okay. I hope I have strength to go on and finish what I started so I have no regrets of not trying. Counting days...

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Very interesting discussion going on here, not want to interrupt but want to record my update on ND so far. I started Nd on BMI of 22, I know it's like scary as I might become under weight soon but I have no choice. Sometimes I am in doubt if this works or not, or will it work for me or not, but to be honest whatever the possibility is I want to take. I am only 37 and recently diagnosed. On ND it's not too bad so far, my numbers have gone down drastically. Yesterday I saw my lowest so far which was 4.0 after I reached home. After the shake about 12 grams of shake I rise to early 6 but then I go back to late 4s. My fasting this morning was 4.2 lowest fasting I ever saw. 6 th day today, weight not as much down as I was expecting, but did lose about 1.5kg. I do not want to lose a lot as I am already skinny. I have faced numb hands on one night, little headache today, apart from that I seem to do okay. I hope I have strength to go on and finish what I started so I have no regrets of not trying. Counting days...

@mohanankur

There may be some serious benefit of you reading this piece from "The Skinny master" of the ND NP program Richard Doughty
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure
He was rail thin to begin with. Alas I am almost rail thin with a BMI of 22.6 I am not seeing numbers like yours so if I seem somewhat jealous you'll understand..

 

[Steve50]

@mohanankur

There may be some serious benefit of you reading this piece from "The Skinny master" of the ND NP program Richard Doughty
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure
He was rail thin to begin with. Alas I am almost rail thin with a BMI of 22.6 I am not seeing numbers like yours so if I seem somewhat jealous you'll understand..

It may just be a matter of time - I know I am repeating myself a bit here - but your body does need time to recover and you are giving it every chance.

All Power to you!!!!!

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

It may just be a matter of time - I know I am repeating myself a bit here - but your body does need time to recover and you are giving it every chance.

All Power to you!!!!!

Thanks @Steve50 May the Force be with us!

 

[mohanankur]

@mohanankur

There may be some serious benefit of you reading this piece from "The Skinny master" of the ND NP program Richard Doughty
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure
He was rail thin to begin with. Alas I am almost rail thin with a BMI of 22.6 I am not seeing numbers like yours so if I seem somewhat jealous you'll understand..

Living-by-the-beach : I understand of course. This whole diabetes is very complicated.

Thank You for sharing the article. Richard D is pretty popular amongst normal/low BMI members. I emailed him sometime back and he is still free. Lucky he could get rid of this thing in just 11 Days. Its good he had some remote support of Prof. Taylor to tell him when to stop. For rest of us I guess its the hard way to figure out the personal threshold ourselves if at all possible. For us low/normal BMI i heard there are more risks as we could be losing heart muscle on ND. Which is what is worrying me. But have no choice I guess. And guess what I could not quit my smoking yet and i am smoking as well. I do have cut down however quite a bit. So, another risk factor.

How long you have been on ND?

 

[mohanankur]

@Living-by-the-beach All power to you and all of Us here!!!.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Living-by-the-beach : I understand of course. This whole diabetes is very complicated.

Thank You for sharing the article. Richard D is pretty popular amongst normal/low BMI members. I emailed him sometime back and he is still free. Lucky he could get rid of this thing in just 11 Days. Its good he had some remote support of Prof. Taylor to tell him when to stop. For rest of us I guess its the hard way to figure out the personal threshold ourselves if at all possible. For us low/normal BMI i heard there are more risks as we could be losing heart muscle on ND. Which is what is worrying me. But have no choice I guess. And guess what I could not quit my smoking yet and i am smoking as well. I do have cut down however quite a bit. So, another risk factor.

How long you have been on ND?

I'm pushing my weight down. I've got some cans of Slimfast but more a personally modified ND / down now 66lbs from worst levels down 26.2% of total body weight. Drinking lots of coffee / water and I got some hazelnuts yesterday too as @Andrew Colvin previously recommended
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/got-my-first-3-month-hba1c-results-this-morning.55719/

"I also research nuts and found that hazelnuts were full of monunsaturated fats and arginine which stimulates the pancreas to produce more insulin and started adding these to my diet."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110712094201.htm

As for the cancer sticks AKA cigarettes, it may be smart to ditch them. I know of T2 folks that have had both legs amputated.

We can live with the symptoms and treat them or fight the disease.. Its our choice..

 

[RobOwen]

Last day of week 7 (49/56) of the ND. Another 5lbs lost with 2 lbs to go to initially set target weight of 14 stones (88.9kg). BMI started at 33.2 and is now 27.7. I'd still like to continue weight loss after 8 weeks ND by migrating on to LCHF to achieve a lower BMI (24.9 or below - 12st 11lbs or 81.2kg) that I can then sustain long-term.

More importantly the BG averages have meant that I decided to eliminate another tablet of Metformin from my daily intake, going to 1 x 500mg in the morning along with my 1 BP tablet and a statin at bedtime. Compared to 7 weeks ago when I was on 6 tablets at breakfast, 4 at dinner and 1 at bedtime and about to have more medication added as the a1c was still too high, I think that can be counted as success so far.

I have noted that, as before when I reduced my Metformin intake, by BG readings have become slightly more erratic over the last couple of days. I am anticipating that will settle down over the next week or so if last time is anything to go by.

Had to go clothes shopping yesterday . Before all this started I was in VERY tight 38" waist trousers (a dinner suit I occassionally wore actually had 40" trousers). 34" waist ones are now comfortable, so out go about 8 pairs of assorted jeans, walking & casual trousers with 4 pairs of replacements plus 2 smaller belts. There will have to be another spend pre-holiday in about 7 weeks time. The money I've saved on food over the past couple of months has just been blown I think!

 

[Arab Horse]

It does seem to be the severe calorie restriction for those of us with a low starting BMI but bear in mind that the BMI is a fairly inaccurate measure of body fat. My son who is a large policeman has a BMI above what it should be for his height but he has a lot of muscle which weighs much heavier than fat. I have a low BMI (17.7) after losing one and a half stones in weight when I cut the carbs but, unlike my son, I am small framed so my "real" BMI is probably several units above that. I have just started the ND and after only a couple of days my fasting BG is now normal although I have stopped having my evening "meal" after I do the horses at 8.00pm and I now have it earlier so that I have 11 - 12 hours fasting. I will gradually get it earlier so that I I try for a 14 hour fast. So far I feel fine, just hungry but if I can start to eat more normally after a few weeks it will be a small price to pay. I am only having one "shake" at the moment as my one hour BG is higher than I would like but is back down by two hours but by eating my usual low carb meals without the fat it stays in the normal range and I feel that is much better for my pancreas.

Sadly I have no support from my DN, dietician, and from several people on this forum. Many seem to think that as I am thin already I have some sort of eating disorder but nothing could be further from the truth, I love my food and could easily have become very fat but I always kept an eye on my weight as I thought it was easier to lose half a stone than ten and a half stones; I refused to buy bigger jeans so when the ones i had were getting too tight I lost a bit of weight until they were comfortable again!

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

It does seem to be the severe calorie restriction for those of us with a low starting BMI but bear in mind that the BMI is a fairly inaccurate measure of body fat. My son who is a large policeman has a BMI above what it should be for his height but he has a lot of muscle which weighs much heavier than fat. I have a low BMI (17.7) after losing one and a half stones in weight when I cut the carbs but, unlike my son, I am small framed so my "real" BMI is probably several units above that. I have just started the ND and after only a couple of days my fasting BG is now normal although I have stopped having my evening "meal" after I do the horses at 8.00pm and I now have it earlier so that I have 11 - 12 hours fasting. I will gradually get it earlier so that I I try for a 14 hour fast. So far I feel fine, just hungry but if I can start to eat more normally after a few weeks it will be a small price to pay. I am only having one "shake" at the moment as my one hour BG is higher than I would like but is back down by two hours but by eating my usual low carb meals without the fat it stays in the normal range and I feel that is much better for my pancreas.

Sadly I have no support from my DN, dietician, and from several people on this forum. Many seem to think that as I am thin already I have some sort of eating disorder but nothing could be further from the truth, I love my food and could easily have become very fat but I always kept an eye on my weight as I thought it was easier to lose half a stone than ten and a half stones; I refused to buy bigger jeans so when the ones i had were getting too tight I lost a bit of weight until they were comfortable again!

@Arab Horse

As I said earlier in this thread to @mohanankur the link to Richard Doughty's nuggets of knowledge

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure

may prove beneficial to read again. That your BGs are becoming normalized is very encouraging for you and our NP ND community as a whole.My friend Phil Jeremy a coach / professional fitness trainer (one can google him for help) is in agreement with your view about BMI and it is an in-accurate measurement at best for overall body fat.

Since I've had a recent family bereavement I know only too well that at some point we will all meet our maker and that I for one am not in a rush to have lived a shortened life. So if one can get one's BGs under control that will definitely help in the long run.. Good luck to us all.