donnellysdogs
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People that can't listen to other people's opinions.
People that can't say sorry.
I suppose my first point is that as an NHS GP I am expected not to go too far away from the mainstream – even as it was my first article attracted hostility from health Care Professionals who are very nervous about the whole fats debate.This has all kicked off a bit since I last had a look at the thread.
I've not been here long so really don't know who @Southport GP is.
But I must admit to a bit of confusion, as I looked back at the previous threads he started.
Let me know if I've gone astray anywhere.
First one I found, he called 'low cabohydrate', no mention of fats,
'though porridge, new potatoes and oat cakes in moderation
may be fine'
'Proteins such as in meat, eggs, fish – particularly oily fish such as salmon, mackerel or tuna –
are fine and can be eaten freely.'
'Plain full fat yoghurt makes a good breakfast with the berries.
Processed meats such as bacon, ham, sausages or salami are not as healthy and should only be
eaten in moderation.
Fats (yes, fats can be fine in moderation): olive oil is very useful, butter may be tastier than
margarine and could be better for you! Coconut oil is great for stir fries. Four essential vitamins
A, D, E and K are only found in some fats or oils. Please avoid margarine, corn oil and vegetable
oil'
http://www.practicaldiabetes.com/SpringboardWebApp/userfiles/espdi/file/March 2014/PP Unwin final proofs revised.pdf
Second post, again called a 'low carbohydrate diet', no mention of fats.
' This was accomplished using a low carbohydrate diet—in his words: “more a lifestyle than a diet.” The weight loss enabled him to take more exercise, join a gym, and take up yoga. He has come off sugar altogether and cut out bread (he previously consumed a lot of this), potatoes, pasta, cereals, and rice. This has led to greater consumption of green vegetables, but also eggs, full fat Greek yoghurt, and cheese.'
http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h4023.full?ijkey=AN2nBwW6h3wuQJK&keytype=ref
All sounds good so far.
I realise now that a lot of members on here obviously do high fat, and seem to have adopted Southport gp, and credited him with a LCHF 'prescription' diet, which he seems to have let carry him forward, without ever actually saying anything about fat.
But now he seems to be the champion of a high fat diet, and not only that, it's based on a report that says saturated fat is no worse than refined carbs.
Which means exactly the same as it's no better than refined carbs.
But it is better than trans fats.
So, a respectable journal like the BMJ seems to be recommending we eat saturated fats, as they are no worse than refined carbs, but they are better than a fat you would go to jail for using in some countries.
And Southport gp is suggesting we switch to it?
And quoting references to people that suggest we use it for what, 80% of our diet.
As saturated fat?
Like I say, must have missed something inbetween.
Me, I have to be honest, I missed the thread because I was out getting fish, and a few yams and some yucca.
After reading the evidence for saturated fat, it's well on the back burner, the grill is coming back out, the fat is being cut off, and I'm going for polyunsaturated, which the report shows actually is better than refined carbs for your health.
I don't do well with refined carbs, I don't want fat that is, at best, no worse than refined carbs for your heart.
I would be interested to see his response, as no doubt I have got something wrong, so I have tagged him in this post.
I suppose my first point is that as an NHS GP I am expected not to go too far away from the mainstream – even as it was my first article attracted hostility from health Care Professionals who are very nervous about the whole fats debate.
Another point is that where possible I try not to be too prescriptive about diet. People are in the end the best experts on their own life and having set Goals find their own route. I suppose its partly that which so impressed me about this forum in the beginning; so many folks with good goals and great results, sadly often not encouraged by health professionals. This partly because the low carbing thing is not in the ‘guidelines’.
I wondered if I could help by connecting the forum with some evidence that could be put to responsible health professionals, so they could see a more evidence-based reason for any particular dietary choice.
When I saw The BMJ article and others. I felt a ‘sea change’ in the professional view on saturated fats which I thought would be interesting, particularly to those who find a LCHF diet really suits them.
Choice of diet depends on so many things
‘But now he seems to be the champion of a high fat diet’This process has taught me so much including the fact I really don’t know everything. I’m just a very motivated, interested GP. It’s true I’m a lot more tolerant of fat than 3 years ago and I suspect it has advantages as a source of energy.
- Where are you now ? eg overweight or not ,Type 1 or Type 2, medications , liver problems, struggling with family life etc etc
- What are your personal health goals?
- What are your resources to bring about this change? Energy, income
If I champion anything its patient choice after education. If the LCHF diets suits someone and medically they are doing OK (weight BP etc ) then perhaps we should be working with the patient rather than threatening them with dire consequences as has occurred.
Three things I do feel need championing
Crikey that became more serious than I meant at the start, but I hope helps you understand. Time for me to get back to family life!
- The fundamental idea that for someone with diabetes dietary glucose is arguably a poison - its consumption has consequences that someone with diabetes should be informed about before they make dietary choices.
- If a type two diabetic is overweight they will probably improve their health greatly with weight loss
- Eat loads of green veg if you can.
I see you still refer to your advice as low carbing, but you haven't actually said if you believe HF, particularly saturated fat, should be a very high proportion of the diet you recommend to your patients, nor any comment on the polyunsaturated fats seeming to be more beneficial in the article you provided.
As you seem to appreciate, this is a site where a lot of members believe LC and HF is intrinsically linked, and you seem to be undecided on that aspect of the diet.
As to the article you linked to, at best there does seem to be some correlation to increased CHD, and it seems to have received not exactly the best reception in it's peer review.
http://static.www.bmj.com/sites/def...le/pre-pub-history/First_decision_29.3.15.pdf
I agree with all three of your final points to champion though.
Cut the carbs, lose weight, eat greens.
But you are seen as the champion of a saturated fat diet now, and a great reinforcement to the idea of LCHF as a lifestyle, and possibly slightly more than it being 'suspect it has advantages as a source of energy.'
By whom?But you are seen as the champion of a saturated fat diet now,
The numbers don't do that though.I dislike the lchf label. I would totally agree with @andbreathes label of LCBF totally...
Your confusion seems to be based on a basic logical error (as well as ignoring what SouthportGP himself has said to clarify).'One of the biggest barriers to professional acceptance of the LCHF diet has been the HF- high fat bit. And yet without it the diet is a terrible struggle!
Partly through steady pressure by people like Zoe Harcome and Trudy Deakin the 'all fats are bad and saturated fats are very very bad' dogma is wearing thin.'
As in the opening paragraph, I suspect Southport GP is happy with the High Fat terminology.
Let us not forget Trudy put the marker in for her personal preference of High Fat as 82% of her diet.
Yet he does not report his patients struggling on the diet's he has reported them to be on?
Obviously we can only go on what he has stated on this forum, but they didn't look to be a 'High Fat' diet.
Hence my confusion over the apparent major change of stance.
Why do you conflate fats and proteins to get 90%? That doesn't make any sense at all in terms of your argument. For all I know that could be 80% protein and 10% fat, more like an Atkins diet than LCHF.The numbers don't do that though.
If you have 50g of carbs, on a low carb diet, that's 200 calories from carbs.
So about 10% of the average 2000 calories.
So 90% from fats and proteins.
It's always going to be high fat.
High saturated fat for Trudy, and many others.
'One of the biggest barriers to professional acceptance of the LCHF diet has been the HF- high fat bit. And yet without it the diet is a terrible struggle!
Partly through steady pressure by people like Zoe Harcome and Trudy Deakin the 'all fats are bad and saturated fats are very very bad' dogma is wearing thin.'
As in the opening paragraph, I suspect Southport GP is happy with the High Fat terminology.
Let us not forget Trudy put the marker in for her personal preference of High Fat as 82% of her diet.
Yet he does not report his patients struggling on the diet's he has reported them to be on?
Obviously we can only go on what he has stated on this forum, but they didn't look to be a 'High Fat' diet.
Hence my confusion over the apparent major change of stance.
The numbers don't do that though.
If you have 50g of carbs, on a low carb diet, that's 200 calories from carbs.
So about 10% of the average 2000 calories.
So 90% from fats and proteins.
It's always going to be high fat.
High saturated fat for Trudy, and many others.
Personally I think it gives the right impression, because everyone, correctly, (except possibly @SunnyExpat), understands it to mean "more fat than you are used to having and more fat than you were told you ought to have". And that is the crucial message to get across. Eat more fat than you are used to and more fat than you are used to being told is OK.Still think that LCHF gives the wrong impression though...
But the fats I personally eat are not heavy
saturated ones. As a T1 I can eat fruit and this is my main source of carbs each day. A little portion of apple, kiwi, mango n orange wirth chia and flaxseed. Apart from that mainly salads...
I see my diet as good for me because the majority has always been natural foods. Now its even more natural without aspartame and preservatives as much as poss.
I think I just wish more people ate less processed foods and takeaways, sandwiches, on the go foods etc.
To be honest I don't analyse my food content as in fat/carbs/protein. Just so long as I keep my size 8 and bloods ok I'm doing ok. I was deeply unhappy adding carbs in and putting on weight... I was deeply unhappy when hubby n I both had raised cholesterol with the saturates... So I see myself and my body as balanced... Not necessarily I guess that my intake is.
Still think that LCHF gives the wrong impression though...
Trouble is whilst the populations hear its ok to eat "fat"- they aren't hearing about lowering the carbs. Sure they hear about sugar in coke or juices etc... But they aren't hearing about reducing bread, rice, pasta etc...
Thats the flaw in the release of the "fats are ok"... From the media...