Gout and type 2

[forge]

If you did science at school you would probably have grown crystals.

It is not a case of dissolving crystals.

The crystals have formed because the liquid cannot hold an more (it is saturated) and the only way they can be dissolved is to un-saturate the liquid.

Gout attacks do not continue forever as soon as the liquid (blood) becomes unsaturated the crystal will dissolve.

You can't deny physics.

 

[col888]

Had gout before diagnosed with T2, take Allapurinol 2 tabs every day for the gout and 1 metformin morning and night. Anything that contains Purines is bad for gout.

 

[stuffedolive]

You can't deny physics.

But this is chemistry! The addition of vinegar (an acid) may change the blood chemistry which affects the conditions under which the crystals develop and dissolve.

 

[forge]

I am confident that vinegar is not a remedy for gout.

To neutralize an acid you need an alkaline not another acid and that produces a salt.

We are not test tubes and there is of course, a lot of biology I do not understand, but if vinegar (acetic acid) did anything at all it would be like putting petrol on a fire to put the fire out.

We don't eat uric acid and we do/can eat acetic acid and vinegar does not come with warnings that it will go straight into our blood stream and excess can cause problems,

My cousin blew his eye out with vinegar and baking soda and water in a glass screw top jar when he was about 14. It produces a salt and gas. It cleans when the gas expands under the grime and breaks the grime away from the surface, but if you put it in a glass jar with nowhere for the gas to go the pressure builds up until the jar explodes.

Anti acid tablets you can buy are alkaline not more acid.

Whichever way I add it up.using basic physics or basic chemistry

at best vinegar will do nothing and at worst it will delay the natural reduction of the level of uric acid in our blood.

 

[stuffedolive]

I am confident that vinegar is not a remedy for gout.....and there is of course, a lot of biology I do not understand,

You said it! You don't understand but you're confident... hmm. I prefer to not understand but believe what I see until I'm shown its an illusion.

For many people Apple Cider Vinegar does work. And what is more there is now growing scientific evidence that cider vinegar is beneficial at controlling blood sugars for T2 diabetics too. You are welcome to dismiss this too just because your biology is not up to understanding it, but in that case I'm surprised you take any form of medication.

I admit that there are scant scientific journals on the efficacy of ACV for gout but I think that is more because the research is not going to be funded by a drugs company because they won't be able to make a profit from it. But there is an awful lot of anecdotal evidence going back for many years and vinegar has been around as a 'tonic' for thousands of years and its benefits are now being proved scientifically. . What we really need is a study to look at the wider reported benefits to investigate the science behind them too.

 

[forge]

G'day @stuffedolive most people err on the conservative side when it comes to health.

Many people get sucked in because these things sound so good and convenient so enter stage right The Jelly Bean lady.

I have met the Jelly Bean lady on a couple of occasions I have sat next to her at meetings.

The Jelly Bean Lady .Loretta Marron, has saved every Australian huge amounts of money by having bogus remedies taken off our subsidized list by simply collating world scientific reports and providing the incentive for the govt health to investigate. She binds the reports with a cover decorated with a mass of jelly beans (placebos)

She was also responsible for having a cancer quack from the home of con-men, Queensland's Gold Coas,t prosecuted. Loretta started with magnets and you can read her story here.

http://www.mysteryinvestigators.com/files/jellybeanlady_MyMagneticPersonality_25_2.pdf

Search for more recent info on The Jelly Bean lady it is an amazing life story.

It is a shame you could not meet her she is not a raver and everything she does is methodical but she rates as an unsung hero.

It is like all the copper rings and bracelets that nearly everyone swore they worked they were everywhere around here but now you hardly see any.

I hope that helps.

 

[stuffedolive]

I hope that helps.

It certainly gave me a laugh!

However, I don't think ACV is on the same level as the quack cures that the Jellybean Lady is challenging. Like the Jellybean Lady, I too am a scientist (1st class Honours) and extremely skeptical about 'magic' cures, and also realistic about the profit motives of the drugs industry. There's no money to be made from ACV which is why no one has really looked at it's benefits scientifically.

However, I don't take anything unless I have reasonable evidence that it will work for me (hence I don't take statins because they don't work for me). If I find an alternative 'medicine' then I keep a diary and test its effects on me. Thus, I take Benecol and garlic instead of statins and my blood tests have shown that these work just as well. Similarly I take ACV to stave off gout. Admittedly I don't have similar blood tests to categorically prove that ACV lowers purines, but I don't take it consistently, so when I don't take it then after a few weeks I start getting mild gouty attacks and then that is a reminder to get back on it.

I suppose I'm a bit of a nerd in that I have for many years kept records of my exercise, changes to my diet, blood tests, weight etc. My wife is a statistician so she helps me analyse these. Consequently I have been able to tailor the different aspects of my life to stay healthy and meds free for the last 15 yrs. I think we all need to take a knowledgeable (and skeptical) interest in our bodies rather than just to accept what the medic says no-questions-asked.

 

[Indy51]

@stuffedolive - if you haven't seen this site yet, you might find it of interest. They collect scientific references for "alternate" treatments:

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/search/google-cse#gsc.q=apple cider vinegar

 

[stuffedolive]

@stuffedolive - if you haven't seen this site yet, you might find it of interest. They collect scientific references for "alternate" treatments:

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/search/google-cse#gsc.q=apple cider vinegar

Thanks Indy51 but I was hoping for links to scientific journals. Websites such as the one you quote are ok as a starting point to think about possible benefits of alternative medicines but unless they cite scientific papers they could be no better than the quackery that forge refers to.

 

[Indy51]

Thanks Indy51 but I was hoping for links to scientific journals. Websites such as the one you quote are ok as a starting point to think about possible benefits of alternative medicines but unless they cite scientific papers they could be no better than the quackery that forge refers to.

If you search the topic you want references to, it gives you links to pubmed - the point of the site is to collect scientific references in one place for ease of reference.

I see that the link I gave you for apple cider vinegar didn't seem to work because of the spaces in the search, however the following one for berberine should give you an idea of how the site works:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/search/google-cse#gsc.q=berberine

 

[forge]

It certainly gave me a laugh!

However, I don't think ACV is on the same level as the quack cures that the Jellybean Lady is challenging. Like the Jellybean Lady, I too am a scientist (1st class Honours) and extremely skeptical about 'magic' cures, and also realistic about the profit motives of the drugs industry. There's no money to be made from ACV which is why no one has really looked at it's benefits scientifically.

However, I don't take anything unless I have reasonable evidence that it will work for me (hence I don't take statins because they don't work for me). If I find an alternative 'medicine' then I keep a diary and test its effects on me. Thus, I take Benecol and garlic instead of statins and my blood tests have shown that these work just as well. Similarly I take ACV to stave off gout. Admittedly I don't have similar blood tests to categorically prove that ACV lowers purines, but I don't take it consistently, so when I don't take it then after a few weeks I start getting mild gouty attacks and then that is a reminder to get back on it.

I suppose I'm a bit of a nerd in that I have for many years kept records of my exercise, changes to my diet, blood tests, weight etc. My wife is a statistician so she helps me analyse these. Consequently I have been able to tailor the different aspects of my life to stay healthy and meds free for the last 15 yrs. I think we all need to take a knowledgeable (and skeptical) interest in our bodies rather than just to accept what the medic says no-questions-asked.

Nothing personal mate but in my experience pedants get too worried about the detail and forget the main game, so I hope you do not fall into that trap.

 

[babsy2]

If you did science at school you would probably have grown crystals.

It is not a case of dissolving crystals.

The crystals have formed because the liquid cannot hold an more (it is saturated) and the only way they can be dissolved is to un-saturate the liquid.

Gout attacks do not continue forever as
soon as the liquid (blood) becomes unsaturated the crystal will dissolve.

You can't deny physics.

I take 3 100mm allopurinol am & 2 in pm had two pair shoes made @ local Hosp & two metformin 500mg am & pm gout is a dreadful pain

 

[humphreydog]

Hi all, new here, diagnosed yesterday and just browsing the forum when I came across this post.

If you are taking Allopurinol for gout then READ my experience with this medication.

I was diagnosed with gout approx. 10 years ago after having had several attacks and eventually getting a blood test which confirmed it. Initially I didn't take any preventative medication but after two more attacks I was prescribed allopurinol. Fantastic, no more attacks
I was on an initial dose of 50mg which I took religiously for approx. 7 years. For some unknown reason as I hadn't had an attack my GP decided to up my dosage to 100mg approx. 2 years ago.

Approximately six months ago I got the most horrendous rash , starting on my arms but then spreading all over my body apart from my head, hands and feet. It was the most painful and itchy experience of my life. I didnt sleep for 48 hrs, and all my mental capacity was devoted into trying to stop myself itching. I tried all sorts to try and stop the itch - E45 burnt my skin to such an extent that I had to shower it off within 5 minutes of applying it. I went to the GP who immediately sent me to hospital. The hospital had no clue what was wrong with me and just said it was an allergic reaction. My wife, via google, was the initial person to spot what was wrong with me. To cut a long story short I was diagnosed with Stevens Johnson syndrome - basically a severe allergic reaction to medication and the only medication I was on was ALLOPURINOL !

Stevens Johnson syndrome is FATAL in 40% of cases !!! Google it, its horrific and I am still dealing with the consequences.

When I look back over the years I suffered from minor skin rashes, soft nails, dry cough and a few other things. My wife was forever changing the washing powder due to my skin rashes. Stevens Johnson syndrome attacks the mucous membranes of the body hence the dry cough, rashes ( especially around the anus) and as it develops further is spreads to the whole skin as in my case. It is very rarely diagnosed early as the initial symptoms are usually put down to other causes. It is a very serious condition - I have no idea if it is a contributory factor to my newly diagnosed diabetes !

I stopped taking the Allopurinol immediately and my rash gradually faded aided by large doses of steroids and skin cream. I still have it on my lower legs 6 months later.

So for all those advocating taking Allopurinol for gout prevention be aware of the possible side effects and if you are suffering undiagnosed skin complaints/ dry cough /soft nails then speak to your GP about it asap.

I will put up with a very painful gout attack in the future, trust me, it's nowhere near as bad as Stevens Johnson !!!

Humphreydog

 

[babsy2]

Thank you I too have the odd rash more painful than itching I did try e45 like you although not so as bad as you experienced the rash usually around my knees and elbows the allopurinol for my gout helps it keep it at bay I've recently been put on Doublebase Dayleve Gel 100g which is now in the last couple of weeks been put to repeats for my facial eczema and the two or three rashes i have @ moment and I find it Superb
I didn't realise how a gel can feel so good best of luck

 

[humphreydog]

Babsy,
do you know whats causing your eczema/ rash? Did you have it before you started taking the allopurinol ? It could be the allopurinol - you need to discuss this with your doctor. It what caused all my skin problems and my skin is so much better since I stopped taking it. Read up on the initial symptoms of Stevens-Johnson syndrome ( nails splitting, skin rashes, dry cough - my doc put this down to acid reflux ! ) If they ring a bell then definitely discuss this with your doctor. Trust me, you really don't want to develop full blown Stevens - Johnson.

Humphreydog

 

[babsy2]

Yep I've had eczema for roughly 20yrs longer than ive been taking allopurinol but it has got a little worse myself and my gp and diabetic nurse have discussed and I've tried many creams & gels including anti inflammatory & steroid creams & gels and with the additional help of a skin specialist is that to cure is impossible preventing real problems is worth a few mistakes but well poss and this new gel is working so well that the rashes are now small & not an irritant and the face doesn't resemble a beetroot salad just a couple of radishes the only other prob is that the eczema that falls into ears needs plenty of bicarbonate of soda drops is still the same very regularly and the eyes just have b careful when removing usually myself but I'm a lot happier with this than i was six wks ago thanks very much for your reply

 

[mikej1973]

Allopurinol can also cause male breast enlargement! I'd never need to leave the house!

 

[babsy2]

I don't leave house all that often in winter find it very difficult with arthritis & the odd gout flair up I'm about to graduate from using one underarm crutch to two should have my referral to see physio in two weeks time

 

[mikej1973]

There are alternatives to allopurinol I believe?

 

[babsy2]

Yea that's poss but I've been lucky that I go through it all once a month with gp & @ present I've pretty much got everything under control where I'm happy the wife the same and my gp my diabetic nurse and my copd nurse are happyish with this years progress and I'm looking forward this Xmas more than the previous five