“Retune” Newcastle diet for the normal bmi type 2

[HSSS]

I’ve only seen a tabloid fluff piece so far but apparently 70% remission rate for those starting the vlc program already at around a 27 bmi. Done a bit differently from the original studies with several short sharp 800 calorie periods followed by real food reintroductions.

 

[MrsA2]

several short sharp 800 calorie periods followed by real food reintroductions.

So that's intermittent fasting by another name?

 

[HSSS]

So that's intermittent fasting by another name?

Not really. It’s a few weeks of 800 calories a day on shakes and non starchy veg followed by a few more weeks adding real foods back in. In the original studies it was a longer vlc period (8-12 weeks) and then re feeding.

intermittent fasting is more like daily eating windows possibly extending up to fasts of a few days.

 

[Member496333]

Alternatively just eat real food suitable for humans instead of grains, sugar and seed oils. Just like hominids did for three million years before capitalism got involved.

 

[bulkbiker]

Whilst it's interesting and in my view more proof that the low calorie diet they follow is just low carb in another form the results aren't exactly great..

Still pre diabetic even after starving themselves.. I have to wonder what the results will be like over an extended period too.

 

[Member496333]

Whilst it's interesting and in my view more proof that the low calorie diet they follow is just low carb in another form the results aren't exactly great..

This is my gripe with these programmes. The focus is always on calories calories calories and ignores the elephant in the room because it will upset too many apple carts. This cannot be an accident, and thus has to be by design, which is where my problem begins with these people. They cannot be trusted...

And yes, 45 mmmol/mol is diabetes in-situ. Not what I'd call remission.

 

[Oldvatr]

When I was DX'ed some 30 years ago, the NICE advice then was simply to cut out sugars and starchy foods, and LOSE WEIGHT. Later on the Meditrrranean Diet was included in the advice since it was successful in reducing those very items off the menu and showed a reasonable but significant treatment option.

So ND is simply a re-packaging of that advice in a simple to follow turnkey plan. It is the same plan as was being offered by the likes of Slimfast, Optifast, Exante, Cambridge Diet Plan, Huel and many other vendors. These same suppliers have all featured in the ND plan. What is significant is that these same diets are on sale today, but I rarely see any mention of them here in the Forum and they are not commonly referred to in the success Stories/testimonials thread either. They only claim that their products may be useful in reducing blood sugar, but they make no claims to give remission as far as I have seen. so we have a marketing strategy by ND to hook T2D into thinking this is the answer to a maidens prayer. It is a useful tool, but not a miracle cure. It is over hyped for a start. some of the claims do not hold up to scientific scrutiny, and as I have found out they are based on some dodgy maths.

I note that the Fast 800 Plan from Michael Mosely is actually marketed as a low carb diet using the same meal replacement therapy.

When ND published their findings from DIRECT trial, Roy Taylor was very specific that it was necessary to lose 15 kg weight to get to remission. This new article seems to defy the great Professor. Fair do's. I was never convinced that it was that simple anyway. But it sells product.

 

[EllieM]

When ND published their findings from DIRECT trial, Roy Taylor was very specific that it was necessary to lose 15 kg weight to get to remission. This new article seems to defy the great Professor. Fair do's. I was never convinced that it was that simple anyway. But it sells product.

So if you are a non overweight T2 (bmi < 25) there is no way to gain remission by this method?

There seems to be no recognition that not all T2s are overweight...

 

[HSSS]

So if you are a non overweight T2 (bmi < 25) there is no way to gain remission by this method?

There seems to be no recognition that not all T2s are overweight...

This retune study is exactly that - aimed at those not overweight whereas Direct was aimed specifically at those that were.

Now I know I sound like I’m supporting and touting this approach. I’m not. But no doubt the nhs will herald this as the way forward as they did DIRECT so thought it worth discussing in here.

 

[NicoleC1971]

This is my gripe with these programmes. The focus is always on calories calories calories and ignores the elephant in the room because it will upset too many apple carts. This cannot be an accident, and thus has to be by design, which is where my problem begins with these people. They cannot be trusted...

And yes, 45 mmmol/mol is diabetes in-situ. Not what I'd call remission.

DuK fund this research. Follow the money back to their corporate relationships with Tesco etc.
Or to be less cynical the energy imbalance = weight gain= diabetes is still orthodoxy in spite of the obvious paradox that non fat people also become diabetic. Method seems to be shrink the liver back down periodically, return to the carbs that made it fatty in the first place then repeat the starvation bit again ad infinitum.
Note that as @bulkbiker says even if you ate all of your 800 calories from carbs you'd still be eating less than the average consumption of 240g (1g =4kcal).
Retune sounds as if it will launch a thousand books once they think of a better name given it's promise of 'normal eating' in between starvation. Seems more like a 5:2 on the scale of weeks rather than days perhaps? Look out for Daily Mail/Mosely on this in the near future.

 

[zand]

I see this as refusing to admit that dietary guidelines over the last 50 years have been wrong. They continue to blame the patients for T2 rather than help them with good advice.

 

[Oldvatr]

Speaking of DUK - Is this it?
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news/retune-type-2-remission-study-preview

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news/dukpc-digest-day-5-retune-study-lower-body-weight

https://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN151771...38&page=1&pageSize=10&searchType=basic-search

 

[Member496333]

Look out for Daily Mail/Mosely on this in the near future.

Don't get me started on Mosely. He might be a decent chap for all I know but he comes across as another tentacle of the establishment. Little more than another TV doctor made from the same mould as the likes of 'Dr.' Shillary Jones.

 

[Oldvatr]

Here are the results
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/latest/2022/04/diabetesremissionforlowbmi/
The plan called for a sample size of 42. The results show only 20 in the trial.

Where are the bodies?

#Edit Found them! They were there all along, hiding out in the Control Group who were not really monitored at all except for HbA1c and weight.

 

[Oldvatr]

And here comes the science
https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1449

 

[NicoleC1971]

Don't get me started on Mosely. He might be a decent chap for all I know but he comes across as another tentacle of the establishment. Little more than another TV doctor made from the same mould as the likes of 'Dr.' Shillary Jones.

I don't object to someone making money out of their presenting skills and ability to self promote (matey, avuncular personnae) plus ability to spot a trend Same league as the guy (a twin) which is a league higher than Dr Christian and Dr Shillary (latter is in c19 cult).
Upcoming challengers for media friendly medics Tim Spectre (Spoon Fed author) and Dr John Campbell (YouTube Nurse)!!

 

[Resurgam]

I'd have thought that the best way to get a lower blood glucose - the first thing to try is eating fewer carbs.
Test to see how things are going, get down to normal numbers and continue to use what has been learned about suitable foods.
Blood glucose being in the normal range after eating should lead to normal Hba1c tests, and after a couple of years the surgery declares remission is achieved, and then metabolism seems to recover and a more normal response to carbs is seen.
If you don't need to lose weight then why go along the same or similar route to those who do?
Eating low carb and not heading towards remission should show that it is not plain ordinary type two but something a bit more interesting.

 

[Oldvatr]

I'd have thought that the best way to get a lower blood glucose - the first thing to try is eating fewer carbs.
Test to see how things are going, get down to normal numbers and continue to use what has been learned about suitable foods.
Blood glucose being in the normal range after eating should lead to normal Hba1c tests, and after a couple of years the surgery declares remission is achieved, and then metabolism seems to recover and a more normal response to carbs is seen.
If you don't need to lose weight then why go along the same or similar route to those who do?
Eating low carb and not heading towards remission should show that it is not plain ordinary type two but something a bit more interesting.

however, i note that this is being discussed in the Low Calorie Diet section

 

[Resurgam]

however, i note that this is being discussed in the Low Calorie Diet section

Yes - that is why I waited to see if there was anything really useful as a reply before responding - I can't see any reason to follow a way of eating intended for the overweight with little regard to the main problem.
I find it so easy to get normal levels - though I ought to work out my usual calorie intake, just for comparison.
To venture an analogy, I feel as though I have caught the bus up to the viewpoint and have been enjoying the view for some time whilst there are others slogging up the slope on foot carrying a heavy pack, such is the difference between low carb and low calorie.

 

[AndBreathe]

So if you are a non overweight T2 (bmi < 25) there is no way to gain remission by this method?

There seems to be no recognition that not all T2s are overweight...

As I see it, in the most simple terms is the majority of those developing T2aren't necessarily too fat, per se, but they are too fat for their bodies.

Obviously that is also over simplified, but closer than a blanket that all T2s are fat.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not calling anyone fat. I'm just using the simplest language for the simplest explanation.