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Aerobic base training

Discussion in 'Fitness, Exercise and Sport' started by zicksi101, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a good grasp on the science behind this, so forgive me if what I'm asking doesn't make sense. I was wondering if any diabetics have seen a bit of a change in their BGs after doing this type of training?

    Was having a read through this article: http://dailyburn.com/life/fitness/running-training-maf-method/

    It argues that, if you run anaerobically "because your body turns to sugar instead of fat for fuel, it’s harder to maintain stable blood sugar levels and avoid glycogen depletion." Obviously that's applied in the general sense though.

    I think most of, if not all of my running has been anaerobic up to this point, even during some of the longer slower runs in half marathon training. (I learned to slow down after trying to do them too quick at first!)

    My HR for a recent run at 9 minute mile pace averaged a HR of 170, hitting 160 and going up a few minutes in. I'm 27, 9 minute mile pace would be a relatively slow pace in training for me.

    I can imagine other factors may confound the data on this, but would be nice to know what others have experienced to have some idea of what to expect with this type of training.
     
  2. ElyDave

    ElyDave Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Whoa, that's a high HR.

    It's late now and I'm getting tired, but I'll post at some time soon, maybe over the weekend.

    I've been following a HR based training routine on the bike, running and indoor rowing for several years. Best thing I ever did and I have data by the bucketload

    If you get a chance listen to the Maffetone Podcast I linked to in another thread in this section.
     
  3. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Appreciate that Dave, very helpful already!

    From a training point of view, I now know building a base is something I should definitely do anyway, whatever the answer happens to be. Maffetone makes a lot of sense.

    I have some theories about what might happen to my blood glucose levels during exercise after the training, but it would be interesting to see what really happens.
     
  4. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Here's what got me really thinking about this: after my long runs in half marathon training, I've been finishing on a blood gluose of between 5 and 7. If my longer run was 8 miles or more, I've actually been seeing more of a rise in my blood sugars post exercise. It becomes quite a dramatic rise, actually. Rather than seeing a falling blood glucose after a long run, I've been having to manage my post exercise BG by taking insulin to stop it going into the 20s.

    Now it will start to crash 90 minutes later, but that crash can be managed by taking on carbohydrates.

    This starts to make sense if you consider that those longer runs were being done at an anaerobic pace!

    Logically I suspect that, at an aerobic pace, I would be far less likely to see this problem.
     
  5. ElyDave

    ElyDave Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what is happening, if I do weights my BG shoots up (relatively for me), if I do yoga it stays fairly static, running and cycling are very pace/HR dependant.

    Take this morning a 10km run, reduced morning bolus as I was running within 90 mins. Set out at BG of 5.7 with a 10g carb snack first. Running with an intended target HR of 148. 5km in, BG 4.5, 10g carbs, 10km BG 4.9, 10g carbs. Dropped slightly to lunch at 4.1.

    What you are doing, running at those high HRs is increasing cortisol and adrenaline circulation which will make your liver dump in the fight or flight response, so as you say that gives you those post run spikes. You've then over correctd immediately and suffered the crash afterwards.

    My technique after weights (admittedly I generally only go up to 8-9) is to do nothing as I know that the liver will re-absorb those sugars fairly quickly or it will be shunted into muscle replenishment. I then tend to need to reduce the next bolus dose by about 25% as I tend to have an increased sensitivity post exercise as well as during.
     
  6. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing @ElyDave, that's very helpful.

    Thought I'd share what I did for the first 10k of my last training run in case others find it useful, I didn't measure my HR here as I've been training by pace rather than HR up to this point, but estimate I'd have been running at 85% of my maxHR:

    before run - 12.9, took 15g lucozade orange
    5k onwards - started taking sips of lucozade orange, took 50g by 10k
    after 10k- 8.0

    Up to 85% of max HR, there is a "steady and marked fall" in BGs according to runsweet: http://runsweet.com/HeartRate.html.

    I'm spending some time in the top two zones.
     
    #6 zicksi101, Oct 12, 2014 at 6:27 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2014
  7. ElyDave

    ElyDave Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    One thing you will find, if you follow Maffetone's methods you should be able to train your fat burning mechanism more effectively, if you can effectively limit your insulin. Tonight's 9km at average around 145, or around 80% MHR I used 25g carbs. iIf you look at the tables of exercise vs carbs in both Think Like A Pancreas and Pumnping Insulin, I'm using between a third and a half of what they would suggest. I put that entirely down to about 4 years of HR based training prior to my diagnosis.

    I'd personally not be starting out that high, but would restrict both carbs and insulin beforehand to try and start off lower and try and limit further drops. Have you worked out an insulin reduction strategy yet?
     
  8. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the strategy is to restrict carbs and insulin before running. :)

    Taking on carbs before previous runs was a deliberate strategy to keep my weight stable - the doctors were concerned I may be losing too much after I turned up to an appointment 2 stone lighter quite recently. Now they've seen I me keep my weight stable when training, they're happy for me to lose some more.

    Tried my first run by HR today after a couple of weeks off following the half. Wow, going slow is hard!

    Anyway, managed to stick to a sub 150 HR (well, most of the time anyway) this morning in a very flat park and finished the slowest run I've ever done. Actually stopped and walked a few times. 11:18 mins/mile average for 1.7 miles. The HR graph is an eye opener:

    hr-20-10-2014.jpg
     
  9. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    10k done yesterday, stuck to 150 HR, pace averaged 12:18 min/mile.

    Have certainly noticed less carbs were needed during the run, as expected. BGs:

    5k - 8.8, 15g carbs
    10k - 7.5

    I'll update the thread a few months down the line on progress assuming I remember and keep this training up.
     
  10. ElyDave

    ElyDave Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Nice one. It takes a while to get used to it but it's worth it in the end.

    For me tonight, 1 hour on the turbo trainer with an HR target 148.

    Average was 144, max 155 blip. Moving the wattage resistance as HR drifted up.
    BG 3.9 before, 20g carbs
    4.8 at 45min
    4.2 at 60 min
    No more carbs
    Pump on 30% TBR started an hour beforehand.

    Let's start a Maffetone Diabetic thread.
     
  11. ElyDave

    ElyDave Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    10km today, TBR of 35% started about 45min before the run

    BG pre 4.8, 13g / mid 5.0, 13g/ post 4.8

    10.24km in 55:45 / 5:27 per km. AHR 146 / MHR 152 (target 148)
     
  12. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    4.2 miles w/ hills this evening, Avg HR 147, 10:57 min/mile.

    Went out fasted, effectively reduced bolus by 2 units (as I already knew my morning levemir was starting to run out before exercise!)

    BG pre 12.2, BG post 9,4, No carbs during.

    Cooler temperature made a difference to pace and BGs I suspect.
     
  13. ElyDave

    ElyDave Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    It definitely does.

    Looking at your BG there, that starting level lookis a bit high to me, getting to the level where performance starts to get compromised.

    Once you are confident doing so, it may be an idea to reduce that if you can, as long as it does not result in an uncontrolled drop.
     
  14. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Now more confident to do exactly that after seeing significantly less of a drop in BG during base training.

    Just need to remember to start at a lower BG and trust it, thanks for the reminder. :)
     
  15. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    What I've found so far:

    Flat out 5k, 89% avg HR - BG drops by 2 mmol/l per kilometer. BG increased by 2 mmol/l after run has finished.
    75% max HR pace - BG drops by 1 mmol/l per mile

    Subject to temperature, this is more a guideline than a rule.
     
    #15 zicksi101, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:24 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2014
  16. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    4.2 mile route again, 149 avg HR, 11:34 min/mile pace.

    A few HR blips with the hills and stops to walk HR down, but managed to stay under or at 153 HR the vast majority of the time.

    Better BGs this time, still not perfect but improving:
    pre - 9.2
    post - 5.0

    Reduced bolus by 2, no carbs during.
     
    #16 zicksi101, Nov 3, 2014 at 8:38 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2014
  17. Adamski

    Adamski Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good detail in here. I'm building back my aerobic base after 3 weeks out, following the. Great Scottish Run.

    I find it frustrating running slowly. Too keen to push on...
     
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  18. ElyDave

    ElyDave Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    So yesterday, managed to dodge the showers, but nowhere to hide from the wind.

    10k run on a loop course. 5km heading out with the wind assiting, 4:45-4:50/km at HR 148.

    Coming back, nearer 5:30/km to keep the HR down as far as I can. Legs would have been happy going harder, and that's the point
     
  19. ElyDave

    ElyDave Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Today, weights, pretty intense strength-endurance session. BG before 4.6, afterwards 7.5. No carbs.
     
  20. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    3.7 miles tonight, no carbs or insulin before, avg HR 150, 11:56 min/mile.

    pre - 6.8
    post - 7.0

    15g carbs during.

    Good BGs, hurrah!
     
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