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And so it begins: Eat less meat or we’ll make you.

Discussion in 'Food, Nutrition and Recipes' started by Member496333, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    I eat meat too. I too control my diet to control my diabetes. But taking a step back I have to say that climate change should take priority. That said the focus should not be on restricting supplies and consumption of meat as it should be on the chief culprit fossil fuels.

    Maybe if we spoke to all non diabetics they would prefer to eat less meat rather than use a bicycle to go to work? I don’t know. Maybe that is where the real problem lays.
     
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  2. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    Then there is no hope.
     
  3. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Master

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    All this thread has been extensively moderated with numerous posts having been deleted for derailment, bickering and personal attacks.

    Further such posts will also be deleted and may incur additional sanction.
     
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  4. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Whilst I agree entirely, this doesn’t yet seem to be happening on anything like the scale the current elimination of meat message is being spread.

    I suspect even for those of us that agree already and believe in the points you list the issue is the majority have no idea how to practically spread the word or prove it to those that can influence population level decisions. Or even what actions to take to support those that are doing it. Liking a few posts seems unsubstantial enough to catch up in the game and really be heard.
     
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  5. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Well Said. I note that today the Sun newspaper has an article on Keep Farm and Carry On in which it questions whether the global vegan diet will actually have any impact on global warming. This is the first time I have seen a mainstream media outlet actually question this. Well done, the Sun.

    Edit: I wonder if this is fake news? I have been online reading the Sun and cannot find the article. it was mentioned on Sky News this morning, and they showed the clip onscreen, and it was an editorial by Ross Clark, But searching the Sun website gives zero hits. It may be that I am not a registered reader of said publication. There is a Ross Clark who is descrbed as a freelance journalist, and he has a twitter feed, but this story may have been withdrawn and Sky may have been using the pre release copy. Wonder who paid who for the sound of silence?
     
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    #45 Oldvatr, Jan 24, 2020 at 9:56 AM
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  6. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    On a minor (but getting very long-winded) note: :)

    to me there are two kinds of Climate Change.

    (1) Part of the natural cycle of the solar system and our Earth in particular.
    At one point the UK was under ice.
    At one point the UK (as was then) supported a tropical/sub-tropical climate (as shown by the limestone deposits and fossil record).
    We are currently emerging from a mini ice age.
    North Africa was fertile in Roman times. There is now the Sahara Desert. This pre-dates a massive population, massive automated agriculture, and the Chelsea Tractor by a couple of Millennia.

    (2) Anthropogenic (created by man) climate change. Our impact on the planet is obvious. However I am still not sure that the impact has been quantified.

    So I think that the term "Climate Change denier" can be confusing and misleading. Accepting that the climate is changing doesn't necessarily accept that this is entirely man made, nor does it prove that taking various proposed actions will stop and/or reverse the change. Mitigate, perhaps.

    Taking action should improve things. We are pretty sure that the ban on CFCs helped repair the Ozone layer.

    However the planet itself can do things without our puny help.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter
    Natural release of green house gasses is taking place all the time.
    I am not sure that areas of high vulcanicity, such as NZ and Japan for instance, include the background emissions as part of their total carbon budget.
    Mid-ocean ridges have a lot to answer for.

    So for me the jury is still out.
    It makes sense to try and not make things worse, as long as the metrics are realistic.

    To me, personally in the UK, building more nuclear power stations for a sustainable base load and electrifying the railways instead of relying on diesel might be more effective than destroying the meat industry.

    Then again, demonising meat is no doubt more "woke" and plays better in the popular media.

    For example, the calculations for electric vehicles don't always take into account the costs of manufacture, electricity generation, non-fuel particulates, disposal, battery replacement etc.
    So reducing the production of greenhouse gasses seems a good idea.
    However don't be shocked if it doesn't have the expected impact.

    As I noted earlier, stopping meat production in the UK doesn't mean no meat.
    It just means you import the meat.
     
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  7. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    If I was not a diabetic struggling to keep control of my condition to reduce risk of collateral damage, then I would not have done the research I have done into finding out how my body works, and how it relates to what I eat. It also, as you point out, provides me with the tools I need such as bgl meters, periodic blood tests for a fairly full panel of tests that normal people do not get unless they have a chronic condition to justify it, So I can see quite quickly what effects food has on my health.

    I also do detailed researches into related conditions sich as thyroid, heart, cardiovascular, since there are often tie ins too, and, as it turns out, I have problems in those departments too. So I am a walking living breathing, and vocal advocate for trying to improve my lifestyle in favour of better health and reducing my medication needs.

    So far my journey has taken me to following a certain diet that is essentially low carb, and to get there I use meat and dairy products as an integral part of it. Like you and many others reading this thread, I find that I am intolerant to carbohydrates, and the vegan style diet would be a disaster for me. I hve proven this several times recently so I would love to add my (n=1) experience to all the others.

    I think this global march to a vegan WOE is going to have dire consequences for the human race and also the animal kingdom that will be irreversible. Sadly the research I have done shows that there are other less prescriptive ways of tackling the problems we face. In my mind there is a major differnece between suggesting someone gives up meat, vs forcing it upon them by legislating land reassignment and punitive taxes, and public guilt shaming.

    I hope this thread remains open, and that everyone takes this subject seriously since it will affect all of us in one way or another. We need to discuss how to move forward into an uncertain future and what pitfalls there may be on the way. I am concerned that the proposed way of eating will replace my current diet with one that is more restrictive, more nutrient deficient, and will enforce a more restrictive treatment regime (insulin dependancy) upon me, and I do not go willingly to that fate.
     
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  8. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    However, the considerable reduction in meat and dairy is a global push.
    https://time.com/5648082/un-climate-report-less-meat/

    Globally there is a massive reduction already in animal protein availability being prepared for. There won't be other countries to import meat and dairy products from.

    Hence the concern from those of us who need animal protein.

    If governments recognise how many of us need animal protein for medical reasons, I feel confident that provision for extra rations can be made. We are not at that point yet.

    Due to various other health issues, I cannot eat nuts, seeds, or much pulses or legumes.
     
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  9. jjraak

    jjraak Type 2 · Expert

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    isn't THAT the rub.

    Pretty sure if we simply went back a generation or two,
    and Grew our own food locally, and bought locally,
    as in veg, fruits & meat..

    OR

    simply stopped the built in obsolescence of so much we consume, the lack of being able to FIX something easily or the rush to buy products that are new... as the old ones will no longer work..
    (Sonos debacle anyone ..making customers destroy the usability of the old product before allowing the new for old discount..scandalous at this juncture in our history..?)

    or
    Apples humorous attempt to slay the death of the lightning cable because it would cause so much wastage, after causing so much wastage by introducing it in the first place,

    Causing many (like with sonos) to HAVE to buy the same product again (updated, at extra costs, of course) that they already owned and was in perfect working order,,hahaha poor old apple....you couldn't make it up, could ya..:hilarious:

    i suggest we'd make more impact there, then just banning meat, with all the unknown quantities THAT decision may cause of us over the years to come.

    But then WHAT would BIG Business do then, where oh where would all those profits come from ?
    not to mention the big pharmaceutical companies...

    having to be satisfied helping curing diseases, rather then helping to create new ones..(obesity, T2D, metabolic syndrome, etc, etc, etc)

    i remember reading about the Peruvians who grew quinoa, that then became trendy in the west, had gone from one of the best diets in the world to the worst..as they couldn't afford to eat the product anymore and were instead eating MacDonalds

    Not entirely true, as this article points out, but the unintended consequences of what WE do at any given time, does still have a worrying impact globally..

    endangered crops, soil erosion and lacking in nutrients because the animals had gone..:sorry:

    The point re less fats, does make me wince that maybe they will, after all only be a decade or two behind the west now..sadly..

    https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=472453674

    Best intentions do NOT mean we make the best of Decisions..imho

    Better to evaluate on a verified like for like basis BEFORE we begin meddling in ways we can not begin to imagine might impact on us for years to come.
     
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    #49 jjraak, Jan 24, 2020 at 11:58 AM
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  10. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    For many reasons, bicycling is an option for very few.

    However, the food production changes have already started with no proper discussion or unbiased research.

    It's no longer either food changes or fossil fuels. The food decisions are already happening.
     
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  11. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Not something I would stake my future on.
    However if a week is a long time in politics a decade is a long time in research.
    I am not advocating the banning of meat production and consumption, but it does occur to me that if the proposed medication to negate IR does prove to work without major side effects then much of the drivers behind a meat heavy diet may go away for T2s.
     
  12. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    What medication is this? I must have missed this announcement.
     
  13. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  14. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Electric vehicles is an interesting one. Firstly, the Grid will not support the need for all those necessary charging stations, and will collapse soon. Obviously, we need to move to a public transport rather than getting everyone to buy and use their own vehicles. The other problem with current strategy is that there is not enough lithium or similar electrolytes to make all those batteries, especially since they are also required to provide storage on the Grid for the renewables. finally there will need to be monumental investment into replacing the grid, the public transport infrastructure, and the power stations. The important thing is: it is doable and we have the technology. We need the will. followed by the shall.

    PS Lithium is not recoverable once used in a battery. It is like fossil fuels, needs mining, and is not sustainable in the long term. Highly reactive with water, and not eco friendly when disposed of, Harmful/ poisonous to humans if not sealed up. We will need something else (tbd) to provide future energy storage.

    Needs careful thinking. Which seems to be a luxury the current panic will not allow us to do. It is a sobering thought that of all the wind turbines currently in use today, most will need to be replaced within the next 10 years, If you have solar lights in your garden then you will be lucky to get a second year of use out of them. They are solid state, but have a short lifetime.
     
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  15. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    I believe Byetta and Victoza had similar fanfares when they were announced. Now they are out in the big world outside, they are proving to not be the pancea that was once offered, I would suggest delay until the field trials are written up before coming off my successful lifestyle. PS I am NOT a heavy meat user. I am a user of meat and dairy products, and I also use vegetables.
     
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  16. jjraak

    jjraak Type 2 · Expert

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    fully agreed, and you had me ..until that last line.

    Not sure that's the plan at all.

    we'll still have meat, it'll just be more expensive..demand outstripping supply..

    and i f we stop farming so much, i think peer pressure will mean others will farm less.
    Trade tariffs, import duties, new anti climatre taxes etc, will make that less attractive, so the tumble down of numbers will continue and accelerate, most likely

    particularly among the poorest who NEED a harvest to sell every years/season.

    So razing fields to plant bio fuels while some of the world starves...possible
    or maybe some go the way of the afghan farmers and so many in south america, and grow poppy for those willing to risk buying and selling it to our schoolkids..?

    unintended consequences of well intentioned ideals
    the 20th century and our own are littered with them, sadly.

    but as said..agree with most.:)
     
  17. Member496333

    Member496333 · Guest

    The plan is more profit. Plain and simple. Soy, wheat, seed oils, etcetera etcetera etcetera. Raze the planet to make more space for farming money. I don't think anyone in the know really believes it's about anything else.

    In my opinion :D
     
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  18. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    I dont eat much meat at all. But I do rely heavily on full fat dairy. Fewer cattle means less dairy available. Leaner cattle means less butter and full fat dairy products.

    And we still dont know the possible effects of the increase in soy products on the hormonal health of humans. Especially those who may be at risk of hormone driven cancers.

    I am not against change. I am against change (food and fossil fuel use) without the proper infrastructure being in place first, so we have viable alternatives, and the proper research of consequences.

    Nuclear fuel has been mentioned. My father used to design and built nuclear power stations before he retired. The long term effects of nuclear waste are frightening and well known. When we are talking about the future of our children and grandchildren nuclear waste has to be a consideration in the discussion.
     
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  19. Member496333

    Member496333 · Guest

    I wouldn't hold your breath. You might be waiting a while :pompous:
     
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  20. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    If you look at the emergency tariffs to be levied in the event of the No Deal Brexit last year, then you will see that beef and lamb imports and exports were severly surcharged compared to other items, and were singled out in the entry text for special attention. Meanwhile grain and Soya imports were tariff free. Level playing field? I think not

    A relative of mine who was a cattle farmer told me last year that they were announcing a carbon tax on animal feed for beef and sheep after Brexit, and also on the sale and slaughter of said beasts. They do not need to do anything else. These changes will wipe out all but the very big farms. Needless to say he now runs a campsite business where the cows used to graze.
     
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