CARB FREE MEAL

[Fallenstar]

I have just written on another post concerning this and would like to know other peoples experiences with it. If any???
I eat Low carb but find I need to Bolus for my no carb meals, virtually the same amount of units ,as if I had had some starchy carbs with it, maybe just 1 unit less on average for a standard meal, similar portion size :shock:
Bacon and egg, we were taught on DAFNE is a protein only meal which you would not Bolus for, I need as much Bolus for this as two slices of toast, ie 3 units.
I know there are not many Type 1 's following this lifestyle/using this approach, but if any of you have ever experimented have you found you get a spike after a protein only/no carb meal ???

When I asked on the DAFNE about a protein only meal and dose adjustment for this type of meal, they did recognise that protein will eventually be broken down into to Glucose but said it was too complicated to go into.
I have found a protein meal is broken down into Glucose nearly as fast as a carb meal would be with me. Without the very early big spike though, and the drop in BG which I used to get before with higher carb meals..So that is why I stick with it.

But, there is no way, I could not Bolus, no way at all, even on an ALL protein diet...which before all you Berstein Bear basher people start to get your high horse saddled up and out for a ride...I don't do :wink: :lol: Calm down dear!
Who else needs to Bolus for no carbs???

 

[AMBrennan]

Very curious - Dr Bernstein himself writes that bolus insulin is not necessary for protein*, and in my experience that's correct (e.g. even a whole roast chicken doesn't result in any spikes).

* Assuming reasonable serving size

 

[smidge]

Hey Fallenstar!

I have the same! Thought it was just me or I was imagining it :lol: I had a mushroom and cheese 2-egg omellette the other day - started off on 5.4, 2hours later 8.9 :shock: I couldn't work it out! I did use a tiny amount of milk in the omellette, and I blamed that! For breakfast, bacon and two fried eggs will take me from 6 ish to 8.5ish - absolutely no carbs! I've been trying to decide whether to bolus for these meals or not, but thought I was being a bit strange :lol: My body seems very adept at metabolising protein - especially eggs! Sorry, this isn't much use, because while I sympathise, I don't have an answer for you!

Smidge

 

[Fallenstar]

Hi AM
So you did not get any rise for a whole roast chicken, how many times and at what intervals did you check? How long have you had Diabetes?

Yes' I agree curious, but the folks on the DAFNE did say that as we know protein will end up as blood glucose, but it does seem to work quicker than "eventually" for me...saying that I have worked out a bolus dose to the weight of protein and I'm fine on this...but maybe this might be happening to others??? And if people are depending on the no carb meal to test Basal doses it may not be the best way :?

Or like my Endo once said I'm a weirdo :lol: :lol: I was one big endo puzzle for him , but we always had a laugh and the greatest of respect for each other.

Maybe it's my Liver???

It does make you question though, the no Bolus for fat 'protein ethos behind the DAFNE, but maybe I'm an anomaly...even though they did say eventually protein will be metabolized to Glucose...it looks like I do it a lot faster...you not at all, interesting.

BTW, I've never read or, am inclined to read Bernstein, I'm just going on my own numbers,feeling of well being and labs.

 

[Fallenstar]

Hiya Smidge

Hows you Hun?

Yes ,thats just what I want to hear really, how meals like this effect them, so great thanks for the reply
You are early days with the Diabetes right? I'm sure I would have been like you in my first few years with Diabetes with protein only meals...I bet I could have convinced myself I was "cured" in the early days going carb free :lol:
Your rises are small but they are certainly there! Have you measured what your rise would be say for a piece of toast to say Bacon and Egg? What unit to carb ratio are you on again?

I really need to Bolus now for all protein ,again small increments but I am like that on carbs also, small increments, when I do have them.
Maybe you are right, I do have a very fat metabolism? Are you the same ?

 

[Fallenstar]

Oooo just wanted to add 3 Bacon and 1 egg will take me from 6/7 mmol up to 14/15 mmol if I do not Bolus, I will take 2 units for this.

 

[phoenix]

I have the same problem with carb free meals and also find eggs cause relatively fast rises
For a couple of boiled eggs and 30g of carbs from bread at lunch time , I will need more insulin than the same amount of and a small piece of brie and a salad. ( I reckon on it being the same as about 45-50g carbs rather than 30)
An English breakfast needs more insulin than my normal porridge and 'red' fruit. The trouble is I don't have it often enough to work out how much and whether it's just the eggs or the sausage and bacon as well.
I used to have a pet theory that it was because eggs by their very nature are easily assimilated.
However, it might be because many protein foods cause insulin to to be simulated (in a non T1) . For some protein foods , this is as much or more in than for some carbs. (google insulin inded)
At the same time, again in a 'normal' person and presumably to keep glucose levels from dropping, glucagon is stimulated. This causes glucose to be released . Maybe some of us get the glucagon/glucose release so need the corresponding insulin. :?:

Hope this makes sense, I've just tested at 3.3, so think I need to eat something :lol:

 

[Fallenstar]

Hi Pheonix
Hope you got the 3.3 sorted, I usually have one of those when I start writing a post, as if you couldn't tell!
Yes ,the Glucagon, that is what I have wondered when I said about the L:iver in my earlier post . If the protein also stimulates the liver to dump a little..I know if I did not Bolus for my old breakfast of 2 slices of brown toast with just jam, no butter..I would reach a ceiling of say 19 mmols, this was with just an hour earlier taking my full dose of Basal though.
My ceiling with no Bolus for a no carb meal ,ie 3 bacon and 1 egg will be 16/17 mmol...so both high rises really with no bolus...With the Carbs they would drop very rapidly with insulin, though I find the opposite with protein meals, a steady profile with the insulin,.

It could be the eggs with you, I have found that if I substitute the eggs for Grilled tomatoes I need the same amount of insulin and I have the same numbers, so who knows...but it does make you question a little bit the teaching behind the DAFNE , as we are told not to count anything that is not a carb and in" the book."
Not that I am knocking DAFNE, don't get me wrong, it was great, and if I do fancy a blow out and a load of carbs on an occasion I can go there with confidence...but to be told protein does not need to be counted for BG control, to me any way, was a bit miss leading..especially for people who want to do fasting tests for Basal doses, because I think to get the true picture you must fast, not just have a non carb meal.

What do you think?

 

[AMBrennan]

Sorry, something I forgot earlier: Actually, Dr Bernstein does mention something similar - the Chinese Restaurant Effect. So you're probably right about the glucogen.

Re roast chicken: Last time I that I didn't see any significant spikes on my continuous glucose monitor. Fingerstick +2h was consistent with that (5.2 mmol/l). But yes, it's definitely early days (5 months); carb ratio of about 1u per 60g carbs plus 7u Lantus/day.

 

[davey b]

The one thing I've learnt during my short time here is, like fingerprints, no two diabetics are the same!

I'm inclined to agree that it could be the system thinking "Hang on, we've got food, but no glucagon. Oi, liver, help them out!" Of course the other thing to bear in mind is that the fat in cheese and sausages and bacon will break down (3ounces of pork meat has about 8.9gms fat) - and what the eggs are fried in may also play a part (1 egg has about 5gms of fat).

Also, don't forget that if the body doesn't have carbs to break down for energy, it will start to break down fats to get energy directly or convert them to glucose via the liver. Basically, whatever we eat, the body will convert it to glucose when it needs it - and because we're all different, this explains why some of us can eat porridge oats and others can't. My brother (T1) can eat apples, but I can't go anywhere near them!

 

[smidge]

Hi Fallenstar!

Yes, I'm just over 2 years into diagnosed diabetes and am definitely still producing some insulin, which probably accounts for why my protein-spikes are fairly small compared to yours. A piece of toast without bolus would be unthinkable :lol: A slice of Burgen toast without bolus at breakfast sent me up by 6 - ended up with a 12 reading at 2 hours and then crashed down into the high 3s within 3 hours. Protein raises my BG much less and doesn't seem to give me the roller-coaster ride that carbs do! So not sure what's happening with the protein, but the 'spike' is considerably less than a carb-related one for me at the moment. My consultant offered to undiagnose me in the early days of my low-carb eating - my HbA1c was in the 5s and a fasting blood test was 4.3 - all without insulin! It was only my after food diary and numbers regularly in double-figures that convinced him I really am diabetic and an insulin-dependant one at that! It's really interesting to hear your experiences with protein, as I suspect that's how my diabetes will progress.

Keep well!

Smidge

 

[smidge]

Hi DaveyB!

Strangely enough I can eat an apple with only a minor rise in BG - maybe 2 points for the average apple. If I eat one with a meal that I'm going to bolus for, I tend to count the apple as about 4 or 5g of carb rather than 10 - 15g - otherwise I would hypo. It's weird, because most other fruit takes my BG really high - i can't even look at a citrus fruit without reaching for the insulin :lol:

Smidge

 

[Fallenstar]

Hey Smidge
That is the pattern I used to get with the carbs ,the spike and then the sudden drop...I still do when I indulge...on the low carb ,protein meals I still do spike a bit ,not as much but as you know I have to Bolus for a no carb meal even...but no sudden drop later on...weird . You and I sound very similar with that. Very interesting about your consultant offering to undiagnose you, I know the same would have happened to me in the early years if I had followed the diet and exercise I do now...but I suppose I would have only been putting off the inevitable....you are me in 5 years time, Gawd help ya :lol:

It sounds like you have really got to grips with it all very early on ,so kudos to you

Take care x