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Cinnamon, Blood Sugars, Oxalates and Kidney Stones.

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by Rachox, Nov 10, 2021.

  1. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    About a year after my type 2 diagnosis I started taking cinnamon supplements for two reasons. Firstly to help stabilise blood sugars and secondly to ease the symptoms of my arthritis, both characteristics which many agree are benefits of taking cinnamon.

    Wind the clock forward to this year, and as some of you will have read I had a kidney stone a few months ago. I just received the results of the stone analysis and it was a calcium oxalate stone. It is recommended I eat a low oxalate diet now to reduce my risk of forming another stone. Whilst researching high oxalate foods I was puzzled as many of them were things I don’t like, spinach, soy products, rhubarb, beer and tea amongst others. Others are things I avoid as they are high carb such as certain fruit juices, wheat, bread, cereals, grapes and dried fruit.

    Today carrying on my research I found than cinnamon is also high oxalate. Now I was never completely convinced that it did very much for my blood sugars and my arthritic pain is so up and down unpredictably that who knows if it helped, yet I never chose to stop it and it just became a habit.

    So from today I’m stopping taking it. As far as my HbA1c is concerned, at 36 mmol/mol I have a good margin to maintain a non diabetic number even if it does creep up a bit. As for my joint pain, as I said it’s unpredictable, but I’m prepared to take the hit to reduce my chances of another kidney stone, which was the most painful experience of my life :(

    Just thought I’d jot my findings here in case anyone had had a similar experience or wanted to reconsider their cinnamon supplements.
     
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  2. Member496333

    Member496333 · Guest

    Eating a more animal based diet is said to be the easiest way to reduce or avoid oxalates. I know that when I went carnivore I later suffered oxalate dumping which resulted in painful shoulder joints. It eventually passed and now my joints feel like they’re oiled. Just my experience with oxalates. Not interested in debating carnivore diet before anyone starts :pompous:
     
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  3. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    I’m not carnivore by any means but I do love meat and I appreciate that carnivore has it’s benefits. I hadn’t heard about the oxalates element, so thank you for posting. I have actually been eating more red meat and offal since the kidney stone episode as it resulted in a plummeting of my iron levels. So much to try to balance :wacky:
     
  4. Member496333

    Member496333 · Guest

    You should be aware that rapidly cutting oxalate from the diet can cause the body to start dumping what’s already there. As I say, it caused me some significant pain and reduced range of motion in my shoulder joints. For you this may counterintuitively worsen your arthritis. At least temporarily. For this reason it’s recommended to reduce your intake slowly. I am unsure of any implications with pre-existing joint issues or kidney stones, so extreme caution is advised.
     
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  5. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    Thank you, I’m not jumping to reduce my oxalate intake rapidly anyway, as aside from the cinnamon and the odd couple of squares of dark chocolate I don’t think my oxalate intake is very high anyway!
     
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  6. Riva_Roxaban

    Riva_Roxaban Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I think I might need a urine test to see if I have this oxalate problem, a month or so ago I had a bladder infection and it was like passing chilli pips, a real burning sensation when I was peeing. It cleared up after a week taking antibiotics.

    I have noticed recently that the urine bottle I use at nights has a calcium looking deposit on the sides.
     
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  7. Mrs T 123

    Mrs T 123 Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Yikes I have dark chocolate every day thinking I was doing good - as it is meant to be good for the heart with the oxidants in it ? and I was thinking about adding the odd glass of red wine for the same reason ...
     
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  8. Pipp

    Pipp Type 2 · Moderator
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    So sorry, you are having to adjust diet, again, as you had been doing so well.
    I recall reading that calcium rich foods eaten at the same time as high oxalate foods can prevent the formation of kidney stones. Though don’t quote me on that. I can’t find the link, but it could be worth researching . Also, I seem to remember you enjoy berries, which are high in oxalate.
    Hope you manage to tweak diet, just enough for it to remain enjoyable and for you to keepbwell.
     
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  9. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    Yes I’d read that about calcium, I take two calcium with vit D tablets a day. I usually take them at some random point in the day when I remember, I was thinking of taking one with breakfast and one with dinner (I don’t normally eat lunch).
    Berries, I just have a few strawberries at breakfast, raspberries are the worst for oxalates. So I’m going to continue the few strawberries I have with the calcium tablet. I’m not going to give up all my pleasures!

    Edit for clarification.
     
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    #9 Rachox, Nov 10, 2021 at 11:37 PM
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  10. Z_e_u_s

    Z_e_u_s Type 2 · Active Member

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    Have you tried taking MSM for that?
    I thought I just threw it out there...
     
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  11. Grannypat

    Grannypat Type 2 · Member

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    My husband who has a longstanding oxalate kidney stone problem avoids strawberries because they provoke gravel and renal colic for him
     
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  12. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    I have a few strawberries every morning but I’m not giving them up unless I have to! :wideyed: I love them so will take that risk and cut down elsewhere! Hope your husband is doing ok now x
     
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  13. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    Ha ha, had to Google MSM, sounds like it might be worth considering if my joints play up more without the cinnamon. Thanks for enlightening me :)
     
  14. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    I can only relate your findings to strict low carb benefitted my no gallbladder stones. Healthier liver etc. My gallbladder was twisted in old adhesions from old surgeries. So it was removed because of its pain and vomiting not stones. Nor duct blocked by stones or calcium deposits. I had sludge or that was the first impression until surgeon opened me up. Even MRI interpretations can be vague.
    Obviously your pain is from stones if they are obvious in a MRI designed for your kidneys. They show up white like plaque in your arteries in your heart.
    Supplements are good when you need them. OK if they are water based ones which get flushed out when you have enough in your system already. The ones to worry about are those which you can overdose on which deposits themselves in the body not through the urine or sweat. From what I understand. Others may put it differently.
    I honestly don't take any supplement unless I've weighed up its pros and cons. Every supplement has them. Like medication. Ingestion is controlled via metabolism hence they diabetes is a metabolism disorder.
    What pros did cinnamon give to arthritis? My partner takes Glucosamine sulphate for joint health. It helps with joint damage pain. It doesn't stop arthritis nor stops it progressing just helps with pain from damaged joints.
    I often thought low carb gave me chest pains and palpitations but it's now looking like levothyroxine was too high and painful GERD causing some chest pain. I guess too much fat increased my GERD symptoms which caused chest pains.
    Look how different we are but still need a customised eating plan to keep healthy. Metformin is good for kidney health or so I read. So cinnamon must be your common denominator.
    I haven't read anything regarding kidney stone prevention nor cinnamon. Oxalates are also digested in the gut but be aware of too fast lowering of high oxalates can give side affects too. So slow and steady. Don't shock your system @Rachox
     
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  15. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    Thanks for your comprehensive reply @ickihun x
    My kidney stone was removed at second attempt in September. I do seem to have a ‘stony history’! I had a gall bladder full of gravel removed in 2000 and would you believe a salivary duct stone when I was a teenager! It blocked my salivary duct so the side of my face swelled up whenever I tried to eat!
    As I said in my OP I was never completely convinced of beneficial effects on cinnamon on my arthritis and yes I’ve tried glucosamine in the past with no benefit.
    I am lowering but not going to eliminate all oxalates, not sure if that’s even possible, so if I do get a recurrence it may be further away than the predicted 5 years if I do nothing.
     
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  16. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    I think you're wise. I know you are very practical so you'll get some more indepth replies than mine. Posters are great like that. ;)
     
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  17. JoKalsbeek

    JoKalsbeek I reversed my Type 2 · Expert

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    I'm sat here behind the computer for the first time to post here since I got out of hospital, actually. In about May I started having kidney problems, but the stone, or rather, fine grit I passed was too small to determine what sort of stone it was. Since oxalate stones are in the majority, I went from the assumption that that was what it was. The CT scan in May was clear, and that's when I started a carnivore diet to cut out all oxalates.

    Guess it didn't work, because yesterday I passed a 2mm one, and there's a 4 mm one still in my right kidney. I actually got up early this morning to write thank you's to the out-of-hours GP and the team over at the hospital that put me on morphine for the night in spite of them having no beds due to covid (Two hospitals couldn't take me, the third couldn't do it either, really, but they had me sent over anyway), but then I saw your post. Going from the few facts I have: no oxalates since May, clear CT in May, I think it's not likely my stones are the common garden variety oxalate-calcium stones after all. (I hope this stone was big enough to properly test because I want to avoid getting this again at ALL costs!!!! Even if I have to quit salt or anything else! Never, ever again! Though I guess with a 4mm one still in there, I may not have much of a say in the matter...) But anyway, yours are O-C stones, and that makes things relatively easy. Turns out there's indeed a lot of oxalates in cinnamon, yeah, but also insane amounts in chocolate (especially extra dark), and tea. Spinach, certain nuts and such too. There's plenty of sites with high oxalate food lists, and a lot of them contradict one another, so I just went full carnivore to be on the safe side (HA!). https://www.nutritionadvance.com/high-oxalate-foods/ and https://oxalate.org/ might help. For a low oxalate diet you need to be at 50 mg or less a day, which is quite do-able as it turns out... And with going carnivore, my blood sugars have never been better (Hovering in the 4's and 5's. Though my bloods shot up when I was hurting, to 6,9). Only drawback now being, the high meat content diet might cause whatever kidney stones I do have, but I won't make any more dietary changes until I get my results back.But that shouldn't be a problem for you. Nix oxalates as much as possible and you should be fine. :) Also, if you do have them, make sure you have something with calcium (cream, cheese) to go with it. Then it binds in the stomach rather than in the kidneys and exits the painless way.

    Good luck eh... And let's hope neither one of us'll have to go through it again!
    Jo
     
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  18. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    Thanks for your reply @JoKalsbeek , I’ve read it quickly but am in a hurry this morning, so I’ll reread it later and respond properly then.
    Hope you!re feeling better now xx
     
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  19. EllieM

    EllieM Type 1 · Moderator
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    I'm sure you all know this but my understanding is that the first thing to do to avoid kidney stones is to increase the volume of water drunk. My husband had them a couple of years ago and aside from skipping spinach ( a shame because we now have an awesome spinach patch in our vegetable garden) and okra (so not fair) and various other high oxalate foods he has kept drinking a couple of litres of water a day... So far so good.
     
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  20. Rachox

    Rachox Type 2 (in remission!) · Master
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    Ok my proper reply @JoKalsbeek
    Kidney stones really are the most awful pain, you have my sympathies for sure. I hope yours stays put in your kidney, mine was 5mm and decided to move (ouchie) that was the worst bit! The surgeons finally got rid of it second attempt, thank goodness. I’m going to reduce oxalates gradually, so stopped the cinnamon, and will gradually cut out or down on other high oxalate foods, need to swap my favourite snack of dark chocolate almonds to pistachios instead as almonds are high. I have a follow up appt in January and a scan to check I’m still stone free!

    Edit to tag Jo properly!
     
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