Dawn Phenomen - Should I be Celebrating This?

Congratulations on your excellent progress in normalizing your glucose level.

There is actually no rush in this lowering the fasting glucose. It really is a marathon that we are in, not a sprint.

But that said, perhaps you may want to move your intermittent fasting to skip dinner or have very light dinner instead, rather than skipping breakfast or lunch. I found that after a day or two of consecutive fasting, the liver output normalize as well...that allows me to have a hearty breakfast

Old news I know but one quite quick way to lower your blood sugar is to go for a walk, not the 20 mile walk necessarily but brisk (says DN). It would be interesting to have something to eat (not much) and go for a walk and take a reading afterwards. Maybe you could start your day at a whole new lower level.

Well done on getting good glucose control. This is my thoughts on it...I know that some say the dawn phenomenon is fine and nothing to worry about... but when I think about it I think it is something to try and avoid no matter what stage or type of diabetes you have. The reason I say that is because the liver can also fail to dump glucose the longer you've had diabetes. My experience is that I'm a type 2 that has progressed through the stages and I'm now at the point of hardly any insulin production. So if I keep allowing my liver to dump when my BGL drops too low at night it will not fair well for me if it suddenly fails to do that. If it fails I guess I'm in big trouble as my pancreas doesn't do it's job properly and that's why I inject insulin. So in hindsight it is a good idea to try and avoid the liver dump altogether.... although easier said than done. For me these days a liver dump happens when I go too low and I take hours to recover when this happens as it is a hypo for me and my liver treated it rather than me. I really don't like the hypo hangovers. And those that tell me I can't hypo as type 2 during the night are incorrect as I've explained already I'm on insulin therapy so my situation is as dire as a type 1's would be with low sugar at night. My type 1 friend tells me she gets liver dumps too She recently had a CGM which has picked up when she hypos at night and she's not woken up to treat it and she gets the sudden high BGLs on the CGM from her liver dumping glucose... she's adjusted her basal with the info she got from the CGM. Like me she feels the hypo hangovers too. I did have someone else on this forum try and tell me type 1's wouldn't recover, but that can't be the case as my friend has been type 1 all her life and her liver still dumps. I know that in the early stages of diabetes it is not really a huge concern because you have your own insulin and you don't tend to hypo that much (well mostly). But when I think about what my endocrinologists have always told me over the years.. they've all said the same thing, I'm supposed to avoid my liver dumping glucose and to do that I'm supposed to keep my sugar in normal range to avoid hypos. It does concern me that the liver can fail and I can only pray that never happens as to date I still can get too low at night sometimes and I don't always treat the low.

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/dawn-phenomenon-t2d-8/

Good explaination by a doctor that uses fasting to threat diabetes.

As you lose weight the dawn phenomen will improve, the current situation is just a sign of diabetes still being there.

@Lindy1706 none diabetics get the liver dump too. Everyone does. Some can set their watch by it.
Insulin resistant diabetics don't need it's help.
I for one use techniques to try and con it into not topping me up and needing more insulin and tablets. I feel my hba1c benefits too.
I have a protein supper. Nuts, cheese or tinned fish.
When I rise I have a low carb breakfast before exercise or housework.
I'm no angel. I have occasional treats but my fbg suffers everytime I have a carb.
Why don't you try any of the above suggestions and see what works best for you?
Now your on the case I'm sure you will beat the liver dump too.

Lindy1706 said:

Thanks for this all very interesting .

So I duly had my normal breakfast of 2 slices of bacon and 2 scrambled eggs and took the dogs of for a 6 kilometer yomp.....I got back glowing nicely and retested and it was still at 7.8!

My husband reminded me that as we had gone out for an early ish walk I hd foregone my 5 mugs of builders tea........a litre of water, a mug of builders and 2 hours later I have re-tested and I am now 5.1 ta da

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What extremely pleasing news. I really didn't expect a 6K yomp since it puts me to shame. I only do about 3 mile a day. Your dogs are going to love you even more for this.

I found that there is an improvement over a few days and (hopefully) a little weight loss. Avoid fructose is the next thing. No sugar or things with sugar in, particularly in your builders mug. If you used to have sugar then you don't any more. Sweet fruits are out as well.

I am looking forward to reading the results.

Lindy1706 said:

Hi Folks,

I am a T2 diagnosed this month and thanks to some great advice on here have been eating LCHF and intermittant fasting and testing on waking and before and after meals.

I have managed to get good control during the day, my BG levels bounce along at low 6's and high 5's dropping to low 5's according to my software my average levels during my first week of testing were 7.5 and this week they are 6.2.

So I have a downward trajectory and I am happy.

My only bone of contention at the moment is my morning fasting readings! these seem to bounce along at 7.1, then went down to 6.5 bounced back up to 7.1 and today (my liver must think we are going on a 20 mile hike!) my reading was 7.8.

I know there is a school of thought that I should be happy that my liver is functioning well and I am trying to take this approach but do end up gnashing my teeth when I enter the high readings and watch my average increase.....I know I know patience!

I have read that Apple cider vinegar can help to bring this reading down or a bedtime snack.

So I guess my question is do I just let this work its self through or do I actively need to be doing something to drive this down?



So

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HI Lindy
It can take ages for the liver dump to stop. I have been LCHF for 6 months and only in the past week have been getting 5's in the morning usually 6's and 7's. Lots of people have reported that its the last reading to drop significantly. Even this week I got 6.8 one day as well as a 5.4 this am.. It does seem lower after my fasting days although this week I have trying the bacon experiment (only eating bacon) so was expecting a few interesting results.

Lindy1706 said:

thanks @bulkbiker I thought it may be a case of patience!

Yesterday was a masterclass in why you need to keep hydrated! Although I am wondring if it is the pure tannin in my builders tea that brings my levels down lol

Ok I will stop worrying during the day I mostly bobble along in the high 5's and low 6's so I am really happy with that......it is just seeing the huge leap on the graph every morning!

I will keep hydrated and keep walking!.

@Squire Fulford - To be honest I did not intend to go that far but it was a nice day and I felt fine so just kept going......must have been going at a pace though as I managed to totally wreck my Jack Russell who spent the remainder of the day fast asleep with her legs in the air!

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That's still pretty good.. my worst morning was an 8.1 one month into LCHF and after one of my usual VLC dinners.. There's just no rhyme or reason in livers...
You are doing a great job tho keep it up!
Regards
Mark

Woke up 5.4 - just tested before breakfast now at 7.2. I'm hoping it will settle down to good levels again, it was behaving itself before I slipped off the wagon due to hols and a stinking cold

My morning fasting blood glucose was 8.0 yesterday and 8.5 today???? I am so disappointed as I am completely following a low carb diet and not eating after my tea around 6-7pm. I am newly diagnosed so only been trying to resolve the problem for two weeks but this morning high reading is scaring me as it seems to be higher than many of you seasoned type 2s. I have been reading posts on apple cider vinegar - has anyone tried it ... was it successful or not for the morning highs please?

Sorry to drag this old warhorse out of the archives again, but you may find it interesting:
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/pesky-dawn-phenomenon.57672/

Since introducing intermittent fasting, my DP BG has drifted slowly downwards over about 6 months. Now rarely see a fasting BG above 6.2, which is a huge improvement on the high 7s and 8s I used to see regularly, with higher numbers occasionally.