Dawn Phenomenon - good or bad?

Dave from Weeton

Well-Known Member
Messages
169
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Good morning, woke up early so tested and was 6.8 and when I finally got up over two hours later it was 5.3, confirming that I get the dawn phenomenon most mornings when I get up early for work.

I am assuming this is a good thing in that my liver is reducing the 'fat' stored as others have commented this can continue for 6 months?

However, a number posting their waking results seem to be doing everything possible to prevent dawn phenomenon by eating various things the night before.

Surely the dawn phenomenon must be a good thing? Although raised readings can seem a little alarming, they soon dissipate and the liver is losing its fatty deposits. What do others think?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
A

Avocado Sevenfold

Guest
I will watch this thread with interest. My bg is rarely under low 6s on waking no matter what I do. I recently started testing before bed and am usually low 5s before bed so is a 1-1.5 rise such a big deal? Perhaps it doesn't even qualify as a dump. Anyone know? Maybe I should stop tutting loudly at my morning readings and be grateful my liver is making sure I don't go too low. Without a continuous meter I will not know fully what is going on in the night.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

SunnyExpat

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,230
Type of diabetes
Prefer not to say
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
You can spend your life chasing numbers.

I wake up, I get up, I get on with my day.
Or I wake up, I go back to sleep, I wake up again.
Either way, I'll get two totally different readings.
I could try to get them lower, by getting up and eating, rather than sleeping again, but I really don't want to obsess with knowing my liver's doing what it's supposed to, and raising my blood sugar so I feel awake when I get up.
I've also seen posters that test in bed, to beat the dump. Others that make it to the bathroom, then test to beat the dump. Again, I can't see the point in testing when you know it's good. I test at random, or when I think I'll see a spike.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

david1968

Well-Known Member
Messages
409
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I've taken to eating a pot of Greek yogurt at bedtime to try and stop liver dumps and seems to be working ... and I'm also finding that I'm sleeping a lot better. Don't know if it was linked, but I always tended to wake between 4 and 4.30 - now I'm sleeping until the alarm goes off or sleeping longer on weekends and feel better for it.
 

zand

Master
Messages
10,784
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Yes I always see liver dump as a good thing too. When my fasting BGs are coming down I know my liver is winning the fight. At last I've found someone who thinks the way I do. :)
 

Stallen

Well-Known Member
Messages
385
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Other
Dislikes
Grumpy folk
I see it as pretty neutral neither good nor bad, annoying to have one before breakfast and gym or after exercise when I need to eat real food.

Ok, if I'm on a lazy day and can get by on a liver dump, but those are few and far between.
 

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
I like to think my liver knows what it is doing. What it does is natural and meant to be. I don't interfere with it but let it do what it does. I always test at bed time and when I get up and have done for 2 years. In those 2 years there has been very little difference. I don't go up very much, average about 0.3mmol/l. Maybe it's because I sleep soundly apart from one loo visit. One thing that does happen, however, is that if I go to bed lower than usual, I go up more. If I am higher than normal at bedtime, I go down a bit. My liver prefers me to be at the level it puts me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

julie56

Well-Known Member
Messages
256
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Angry people and liver!
I've been wondering about this too. No matter what I do, I go to bed with bgs in the 7's only to find they are in the 9's to 10's until nearly lunchtime. I have tested during the night on occasion and find they are already raised by 3.00 am. With lots of exercise and small low carb meals they come down into the 6's after lunch - would like to be able to get them lower but feel that I have reached my limit as far as diet and exercise go.
 

Prem51

Expert
Messages
7,393
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
*
I don't worry about DP either. I don't know if I get it or not as I only test once, soon after getting up. I'm happy if I'm less than 7 which I usually am. If that is with a liver dump even better, as it must mean that my underlying bs figures are even lower.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

Dave from Weeton

Well-Known Member
Messages
169
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I don't worry about DP either. I don't know if I get it or not as I only test once, soon after getting up. I'm happy if I'm less than 7 which I usually am. If that is with a liver dump even better, as it must mean that my underlying bs figures are even lower.

Hi Prem51 that is how I see it with DP, especially as my underlying day time fasting bs levels seem to be reducing over the last two months since I started testing. However, I test a little more, mainly any meals that have some carbs rather than the more stricter LCHF meals that I eat for most meals. For these I test just before and 2 hours after.

When I first started testing these day time fasting bs readings were usually around 5.5 and this was also the lowest waking reading as well. Now I am seeing figures as low as 5 before meals and in one instance as low as 4.7 in the last week. I have also noticed post meal readings coming down quicker for the same meals so things are looking good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people

Kyi

Well-Known Member
Messages
293
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
DP is interesting. I dont know if I have it or if the medication I take is wearing off. I test before going to bed and its usually around 7 @10pm if I wake up around 3 I test again and its usually still around 7. Now if it is DP surely this would mean I am waking up and it should rise but it doesnt. If I test at 7am its rising by 8am its at 8.5 when I take medication it falls again but interestingly if I delay my medication it still falls. I do know if I take my night time medication later it doesnt rise as much. I have usually eaten my last food about 7.30pm
 

Prem51

Expert
Messages
7,393
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
*
@Kyi I believe FBG test is supposed to be taken 10 hours after last food. And if you read the link posted by @Larissima to Dr Fung's article, he says the DP liver dump will be at around 4am, so testing at 3am might be before it starts.
 

Kyi

Well-Known Member
Messages
293
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
@Kyi I believe FBG test is supposed to be taken 10 hours after last food. And if you read the link posted by @Larissima to Dr Fung's article, he says the DP liver dump will be at around 4am, so testing at 3am might be before it starts.
Then this must be at any time you have missed food for 10 hrs surely. Calling it the DP gives the impression it is only at night. Where are I think it has more to do with fasting. People who do not have a 10hr fast so say their last meal is 10pm will never see the DP if they also have breakfast before 8am Conversely if you never eat until 3pm you will have a DP in the morning. I had a habit of eating around 3pm as the first meal of the day and my last meal was before 7.30 some times as early as 5pm day. Now I could eat for England during my eating phase of the day hence the weight gain but Im wondering if my high sugar results were the liver dumps for not eating, 4-5 hrs eating the wrong foods high carbohydrate/high calorie foods low fat foods Over loaded the liver and the glucose levels rose. Maybe this is the result of my high blood sugars, the dp dumping until the next food 18-20hrs later. I never get hungry and I never get thirsty. These are never a good composition for a healthy diet. I always under drink and over eat (no full feeling either). It is better now that I have cut out the carbohydrates and I eat more 3 times a day than 2 times a day (purely because I make myself eat at set times (and set calories) not because Im hungry) Ive never been a snack eater. My blood glucose reading are around 7-8 and Ive seen a 5.5 and a couple of 6s but those are rare and usually when I do not eat but have taken medication. One day I hope to get my eating controls better and my blood sugars stable between 5 and 6. I have a lot of weight to shift first I think before I see normal levels.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

zand

Master
Messages
10,784
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
One day I hope to get my eating controls better and my blood sugars stable between 5 and 6. I have a lot of weight to shift first I think before I see normal levels.

This isn't necessarily true (but it may be). I find my BGs are stable when I low carb. Whilst I have lost a little weight I still have a lot more to lose, but I don't find this hampers my BGs as long as I low carb.
 

Kyi

Well-Known Member
Messages
293
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
This isn't necessarily true (but it may be). I find my BGs are stable when I low carb. Whilst I have lost a little weight I still have a lot more to lose, but I don't find this hampers my BGs as long as I low carb.
I know one of my other factors is I suffer from depression and stress which are also known contributors.
 

Larissima

Well-Known Member
Messages
875
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
From Dr Fung's article:
"Just before awakening (around 4am), the body secretes higher levels of Growth Hormone, cortisol, glucagon and adrenalin. Together, these are called the counter-regulatory hormones. That is, they counter the blood sugar lowering effects of insulin, meaning that they raise blood sugars. The nocturnal surge of growth hormone is considered the primary cause of the DP."
So, it's not just a function of fasting. He also mentions that it (DP) occurs in up to 75% of T2D patients.
 

Neohdiver

Well-Known Member
Messages
366
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I'm working on lowering mine. I'm fine when I wake up (typically 4.44 - 5), but it just keeps creeping up until around noon - and it is is the creep I'm working on because it gives me a significant number of hours when my blood glucose is higher than I want it to be. The number of maladies associated with elevated blood glucose (even within the high normal range) trouble me - so I'm working on eliminating the last significant period when I have elevated blood glucose.

(I do test before I get out of bed - but that is because I am most likely to remember to test when I have a sustainable habit, not because I'm chasing a low. I am - for the time being - adding testing throughout the morning so that my meter average captures this period of above average readings.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people

SunnyExpat

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,230
Type of diabetes
Prefer not to say
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
From Dr Fung's article:
"Just before awakening (around 4am), the body secretes higher levels of Growth Hormone, cortisol, glucagon and adrenalin. Together, these are called the counter-regulatory hormones. That is, they counter the blood sugar lowering effects of insulin, meaning that they raise blood sugars. The nocturnal surge of growth hormone is considered the primary cause of the DP."
So, it's not just a function of fasting. He also mentions that it (DP) occurs in up to 75% of T2D patients.

I find mine depends on the real time I wake up, rather than sort of set in stone at 4am (ish)