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Insulin (not glucose) responses to food

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by HSSS, Nov 1, 2021.

  1. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    I came across this today. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/66/5/1264/4655967 Which measured both glucose and insulin responses to various foods of equal calorific amounts.

    Now it’s an older study, small in size but it raised some interesting points. Eg many foods do not match in glucose and insulin response and equal carbs does not mean equal responses (we all know some items hit us harder on the meter than others do “or personal kryptonite”) and the biggest shock to me was that beef has a big insulin response despite lower glucose response.

    So this has left me with some questions I simply can’t answer, not least because I can’t measure my insulin responses, about which foods might be adding to my insulin resistance and hyperinsulemia as a type 2.

    anyone able to add anything to the reading of this study? I am a bit confused when it talks about pre prandial insulin doses for NIDDM (non insulin dependent diabetes mellitus) patients, surely a contradiction?
     
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  2. KK123

    KK123 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Great post! I think the last bit refers to preprandial requirements rather than 'doses' so I wonder whether they mean the natural insulin being released after a meal by a NIDDM? My guess would be that they are saying if they can establish what foods illicit this insulin response and in what measure that could help a person manage their condition by acting accordingly. To be fair, all they really need to do is come on this site.
     
  3. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Reads like exogenous to me “It is possible that preprandial insulin doses for patients with NIDDM could be more scientifically estimated or matched on the basis of a meal's average insulinemic effect in healthy individuals, rather than on the basis of the meal's carbohydrate content or GI” (in the discussion). Yes elsewhere they discuss being able to make management choices with the knowledge of a insulin table the way we have GI tables and GL tables and carb counts.

    Many of us are achieving good results with what we have BUT this made me wonder particularly about if we are inadvertently making that a little harder with some of the food choices we make on the basis of glucose response (all we can measure in our defence). I’m quite concerned about the meat responses shown and it also brings us back to the parallel argument of protein stimulating gluconeogenisis and under what circumstances.
     
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  4. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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  5. LaoDan

    LaoDan Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I can get into pretty deep ketosis on a carnivore diet, wouldn’t this mean that insulin levels are low?
     
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  6. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    That’s certainly one argument and potentially true. I’ve always understood protein only really spikes glucose (and potentially insulin) in the absence of fat adaption/ability to switch to using ketones for energy ie in times of need and as most of the population isn’t fat adapted protein will cause glucose rises in most. Type 1’s show this quite readily in their need to dose for protein and I suspect few are fat adapted due to the risks and warnings regarding ketones/dka. I’m wondering if the same reasoning applies here and makes the results invalid/less accurate for low carb/keto diets. Or not.
     
  7. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    Beef may evoke an insulin response but if that insulin quality is good then energy a be side effect. Where as other proteins are more useless for metabolism especially protein mixed with natural sugars. Ultimately everyone is different so beef may be fantastic for one but not so good for another. Fat cells are blockades which I feel metformin effects these blocks of fat able to disperse and be emptied efficiently. Low carbing just reduces the workload and build up of useless fat cells. Which is all some people need where others need more than that.
    I'm not surprised with these findings here. Some farmers use different feed too.
     
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  8. Lamont D

    Lamont D Reactive hypoglycemia · Master

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    I'm going out on a limb here and say, because when I looked at the insulin response of foods, I was taken back that chicken was the highest.
    But when I eat just chicken it does not at all effect my blood levels.
    So I presume and assumed that protein is better than other foods to process, which it probably is.(For me)
    But it means to me, that the initial insulin response is enough for meat and low carb, but not for carbs and sugars, mainly because of how the science behind it all works.

    But of course, you will have different results than me and of course @ickihun.
     
  9. MrsA2

    MrsA2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    And the waters could be muddied by what type of meat, and how it was fed, eg corn fed chicken v pelleted, grass fed beef v pellet fed, the medications each has received, The amount of fat in each portion, etc etc
    As many variables in what goes in the mouth as in the bodies that receive it.
     
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  10. Bubbleblower

    Bubbleblower LADA · Well-Known Member

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    That explains why cheese helps against dawn phenomenon, but it would be better to use steak or a piece of fish.

    Do I understand correctly type 1s and 2s should have a different diet?
     
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  11. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    I use any protein to block Dawn phenomenon. If its fish I can add Rose Marie sauce to make its affect last long into the morning. If not a fatty protein then its affect happens long before 4-5am. The fatty causes a slower effect. Hence why cheese or nuts so effective.
     
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  12. EllieM

    EllieM Type 1 · Moderator
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    I've read that if I go very low carb (<50g a day?) I will have to dose for proteins, but at 100g a day I'm OK, as long as I don't have an excessive amount of protein?

    It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me (will ask my dietician next annual check up) and plenty of long term T1s have some insulin resistance.

    I don't understand why low carb T1s have to inject for proteins but they are fine for not spiking the blood sugars of low carb T2s (which seems to be the case, at least anecdotally).

    Would welcome an explanation.
     
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  13. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    If someone is consuming carbohydrate then there is less need for the liver to make glucose. In those settings it’s less likely that glucose will be synthesised from protein. Protein does cause glucose spikes in extremely insulin resistant type 2.
     
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  14. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    I am very insulin resistant. Protein can spike me, particularly red meat, which I have rarely. I assume it is something to do with the feed as our local grass fed lamb doesn't spike me.
     
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  15. Tannith

    Tannith · BANNED

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    "Some people use a protein snack, which can be thought of as "slow release carbohydrate" since about 60% of protein turns into carbohydrate over a seven hour period. " https://www.bloodsugar101.com/dawn-phenomenon
     
  16. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Exactly how does protein become carbohydrates? Surely that should say becomes glucose? I’d like to see the evidence of that high % either way. Does it give a reference?
     
  17. Bubbleblower

    Bubbleblower LADA · Well-Known Member

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  18. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Glucose is a monosaccharide. The simplest form of carbohydrate.
     
  19. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Of course :wacky:
     
  20. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    To be honest you’re right though in the sense that I think it’s important to be specific in these matters wherever appropriate. The devil is in the details, after all. Pretty sure a ribeye isn’t going to get broken down into a Weetabix :shifty:
     
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