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Intermittent fasting: 14/10-16/8, 5:2, 24-hr fast, 20-hr fast

Discussion in 'Fasting' started by AloeSvea, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Is anyone trying intermittent fasting for an effect on their blood glucose, insulin production and insulin sensitivity? (This can include weight loss goals and/or muscle gain for the same purpose of course.)
    As far as I can see in my internet surfing Intermittent Fasting, or IF, covers 4 general kinds of fasting and eating regimens. 14/10 and 16/8, also called ’leangains’ - a 14/10 option for women, and 16/8 for men (apparently). For women, if it suits metabolically - not eating in a 14 hour period, ie fasting (usually included within sleep time), and keeping your eating to within a 10 hour period, or, fasting for 16 hours and eating in an 8 hr period. The two options is due to differences in the way men and women metabolise fat and in hormone production, it is suggested when analysing gender differences in studies, so hormone levels/gender, and whether or not women are of reproductive age is a factor in how we metabolise fat and store energy.
    5:2 is eating normally for five days, and eating a Very Low Calorie Diet - VLCD - for 2 days, not consecutively I believe, in a 7 day period.
    There is also a 24-hr fast, popularised as ‘eat-stop-eat’, where you simply don’t eat (practising good fasting principles - ie drinking water, teas etc) in a 24 hour period between 1 and 3 times a week depending on your goals (hormone management, insulin management, weight loss, in combination with sports, exercise and training for muscle gain).
    And last - the 20-hr fast or ‘warrior diet’ - eating up large in a four hour period, fasting the rest of the time, and as the name implies - in combination with sports, exercise and weight training.
    Let’s discuss, share experiences, affect on health, results and so on….
     
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  2. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I was horrified to see my FBG rise dramatically, and I had a 4 point HBAIC increase in two months (if interested see my entry on the deviated Newcastle diet thread for more details), so sat down with my trusty computer and a new internet connection away-from-home, and figured out a new action plan.

    I’m not sure if intermittent fasting will work, or even help towards an HBA1c of 40 and below (my goal to get back down to this), but I thought I could conduct yet more experiments on myself and see what happens. Be great to hear how others trying it too are finding it, or have found it, or are thinking of giving it a whirl. I know the 16/8 has been working well for brettza, for instance. And Indy51 has written about how IF has been working well for her. I noticed too in a recent exercise thread that Living by the beach also does IF 16/8 and is happy with it.

    A few weeks ago, on noticing the FBG rise, I tried the 16/8 once a week for a couple of weeks (fasting for 16 hours including over night, and eating in an 8 hour period) (I hadn’t read the 14/10 for women at that stage), just to feel the ‘fasting regimen drag’ again! And see if it had any affect on my rising FBGs and therefore daily BGs. I’d also been experimenting with apple cider vinegar in the morning, and small amount of alcohol in the late evening (I hate drinking apple cider vinegar - if I had to drink that in the morning AND the evening I think I would just kill myself to lessen the pain and just get it over and done with! ;-).) The goal was to aid my liver in lessening the production of glucose also called the dawn phenomenon, in the wee hours of the morning. It didn’t have any effect. So, it needs to be every day I thought. Came across the 14/10 suggestion for women, and began that.

    14/10 is very gentle, and I found it a good entre. For me it just means not eating after a very reasonable time after dinner, and just having breakfast later in the morning than I have been. I know that I like to eat in the morning, and I found not skipping my favourite best eating time of the day entirely worked better for me, and just skipping evening snacks was no big deal. After doing it easily for four days, I was greatly relieved. So was my partner! (I was not a happy camper when I tried skipping dinner on one day and breakfast the next once a week over a couple of weeks.) Now I am in a 15/9 groove which seems good for me, and I will see if has any affect on my FBGs over time.

    I started IF properly (ie every day) a week and a half ago, and increased my resistance exercise regime (all those under utilised muscles in my ab region I figured - just dying to take in my excess blood glucose!). Today after a dawn phenomenon reading of 7.3, I metered at 6.3 during my non-first breakfast time. (ie during the 15 hours fasting segment.) This was encouraging.

    I’m canning the apple cider vinegar, and am tanking up on bitter melon in capsule form instead, as a supplement. (I am willing to try out herbals recommended in diabetes literature, as a support.) And glucomannan fiber (konjac root which with water expands in an empty gut to promote a feeling of satiety) to help not eat most of the morning. I am very enthusiastic with herbs and spices and plant remedies because I turned down my metformin and statin prescription, and am going for diet and exercise and use the supermarket and health food store as my pharmacy instead. Have done so since diagnosis a year ago. It has worked well for me. But now I have the challenge of my first HBA1c rise.

    I am STILL coming to terms with the fact that I personally need to be on the lean side of normal weight, it seems, to have my blood glucose as healthy as possible (and of course I don’t know how healthy I can go) ie HBAIc of 40 and below. Possibly/probably a bmi of 22 and below. And if IF can help me do that, then that would be good. Very good indeed.
    So, here’s to IF and a better (as in the realms of normal) blood glucose!
     
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  3. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

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    I've been doing 16 hour day fasting for 110 days now, trying to keep under 1400 calories most days. I've lost 7kgs and my fasting BG has finally normalised with readings under 5.5 most days. Waist is finally 80cm and BMI currently 22.8.

    Still having high postprandial readings if I eat more than 20gs of carbs in the meal, but since I plan on staying LCHF that's not such a big issue for me. I eat 2 meals (and sometimes a snack) per day and stop eating by 3pm. I've been surprised how easy it's been to stick with. It took over 3 months for the fasting level to normalise, so I figure I must have finally reached the 30% liver fat loss threshold though given the postprandial readings, I guess I still have pancreatic fat as my beta cell function doesn't appear to have been restored.

    I'm beginning to suspect I'm going to have to continue like this if I want to maintain the weight loss. Whether I'll think it's worth it long term is something yet to be answered.
     
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  4. Jude

    Jude Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi Indy

    I started 5:2 last month but am still struggling. I have lost a little weight but nothing has moved for 4 weeks now. Am pleased this subject has been raised - I am getting support from various facebook sites. I have actually been doing 4:3 most weeks as I do have a lot of weight to lose and my sugars are a nightmare. I am on insulin and also have IBS and trying to work out what to eat is also a nightmare. I have been feeling better in myself which is good but am now getting anxious because the weight isn't dropping and then my comfort eating starts ......... As you have been doing this longer than me do you have any hints? Hubby and I did start 16:8 earlier in the year but it did not work as far as losing weight was concerned. I just feel that I am in an absolute vicious circle - also have depression and am on lots of meds for hypertension etc.
     
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  5. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

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    @Jude - not really sure what advice I can give you as I'm not on any medications, so don't really know how they (especially insulin) affect weight loss. If you have a lot of weight to lose and are Type 2, have you thought of trying the Newcastle Diet?

    The best thing I ever did for my IBS was quit eating grains, especially wheat. A low FODMAPS diet seems to work very well for IBS:

    http://www.med.monash.edu/cecs/gastro/fodmap/

    I find it easier to stick to the same routine each day rather than follow something like 5:2. I think half the battle is finding the right routine for your individual needs.
     
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  6. bumblebee95

    bumblebee95 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I am fasting in line with Ramadan, over time my blood sugars have stabilised ☺️
     
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  7. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Hi,

    I have been doing a variation of the 16/8 for the last week or so.

    I've been eating very low carb for 18 months now, and find that my hormone situation and 'hunger phobia' (I ought to TradeMark that term) means that nil-by-mouth for any length of time just means I go into a feeding frenzy.

    So I have added coffee with cream at breakfast time, to make it effectively as 16 hr fast with added fat, and approx 8 hours when I have lunch and dinner.

    It has been totally effortless (except for the 2 days I have messed up because of weekend life. but that is OK, from now on, weekends are going to be treated differently, because of the logistical chaos that happens Sat-Sun! :) ).

    I've known for years that my body loves running on fat. And really, it seems far more comfortable for the 16 hours, than it does for the 8 hours of limited blood glucose fluctuation. If only I could just live on butter, eh? ;)

    Will keep you informed.

    (By the way, my goal is very slow weight loss. I am not a fan of fast weight loss, since it has always resulted for me in rapid weight rebound regain)
     
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    #7 Brunneria, Jul 2, 2015 at 8:05 AM
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2015
  8. Claire007

    Claire007 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi, I can't tell you how IF impacts on BG readings but I can tell you that it works for weight loss. I started in January 2013 and lost about 2.5 stone and have kept it off. I did 4:3 initially then 5:2 then eventually just 6:1 to maintain. I've only recently been diagnosed with type1 so I've stopped it for now as I need to see how different foods at different times affect me but I'll be back on it one day a week to maintain my weight in the future.
    The forum I have linked is really useful, it's grown and grown since I was a member and I don't really go on anymore, only to make occasional entries in the tracker (which is fantastic!)
    I do know that there a few members with diabetes on there and I'm sure you'll get some great advice.

    For anyone starting out, yes it's hard at first, make your mantra 'I can have it tomorrow' (you very rarely will want it by then anyway!) Drink plenty of water. Believe it or not you will actually look forward to the fast days, I felt great fasting!

    (hope it's ok to link to another forum, I'm claire007 on there too if you want to look at my weight loss chart)





    https://forum.fastday.com/introduce-yourself-f1/
     
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  9. Suzysuze1

    Suzysuze1 Prediabetes · Member

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    Hi Claire, sorry if this is slightly off-topic but I'd be interested to know how your T1 was discovered and what led up to it - I'm also female, 44, with 2 kids and haven't got a proper diagnosis yet (ie I'm prediabetic) and I don't seem to fit the profile of a typical T2.
     
  10. brettsza

    brettsza Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Nice thread @AloeSvea
    Well my situation in terms of IF is I am doing 16:8, it fits my family life well, I leave early for work so I dont have my breakfast with them anyways.
    I started IF straight after I finished Newcastle diet so it was not at all difficult.
    In terms of weight I dont know how much difference it has made as I am only 8 weeks into it, but I have only gained 2 kilos, so i am gaining :banghead: but then I came off nd.
    I have black coffee in morning and stay on it. I finishe my dinner by 8 and then my next meal is at about 1 next day.
     
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  11. Truffle

    Truffle Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I have been low carbing for 3 years now but over time I have been pigging out more than i should - portion control being a major problem - mainly on good stuff, salami and cheese, but the result has been that I have gained some weight. I decided to try a version of the warrior diet three weeks ago but thought that I would probably fail to last a day without food.I am now starting my fourth week.
    I only eat once a day, leaving an 'eating window' from 6pm - 10pm. I still low carb but eat a substantial portion. I eat like this five days of the week but at the weekend allow myself to eat from midday. I have not found it difficult after the first day and I don't get hungry during the fast period. I have found I have much more energy and want to be on the move all the time. My blood sugar has been very stable and somehow I feel less burdened not having to think about what to eat for breakfast and at work!
    I have lost 4lbs per week which is probably quicker than I would like but it is not much quicker than if I was on a 1,000 calorie a day diet.
    I really don't know if I could eat like this for ever although at the moment I don't have any problems with it. I want to lose another stone and then I might introduce another day of eating two meals so that it is 4 / 3.
    So, at the moment I have not found any negatives to this at all - but obviously it would not suit everyone. It has made me understand that before when I thought I was hungry I was probably just bored!
     
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  12. Claire007

    Claire007 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi Suzysuze,
    My symptoms started with a raging thirst, and frequent trips to the loo. In the evenings I was having to go about every 45 min and up twice in the night usually. I also developed blurred vision, and dropped around half a stone in a week, this rang alarm bells so I went to the GP who after trying to tell me it was a urine infection, then tested my urine and said my suspicions were probably right, I had diabetes but it was more likely to be type 2 due to my age.
    I went for blood tests the following day and the GP phoned me as soon as they came back. He said given my results they suspected type1 not type2. My hba1c was 108, my fasting BG was 20 and I had ketones +4. I was sent straight to the diabetes centre at our local hospital and started insulin there and then.
    They said they would treat as type1 as too dangerous with such high readings not to. To be honest, I don't think there was any doubt it was type 1. When my GAD test came back it showed antibodies >2200 ( not sure what that means apart from there shouldn't be any, so it is nailed on), but I was treated as a T1 for 6 weeks before the GAD test came back.

    I hope that helps, what's your situation?
     
  13. Lamont D

    Lamont D Reactive hypoglycemia · Master

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    I was in hospital just over a year now on a 72 fasting test. My blood glucose levels never moved above 5.0 all through the test.
    Since then depending on work, I have a fasting day at least once a week to give my endocrine system a bit of a rest. I don't fast to lose weight as I very , very low carb. I have been in ketosis for nearly a year now and gradual weight loss has continued through this.
    Having done all types of diets, low carb is the only one that worked for me.
    I gained weight on all the others.
    Fasting, I believe is good for everything if your body allows you too!
     
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  14. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Wow! I am deeply impressed with you doing the warrior diet! As are the results of a stable blood sugar.

    It is really great to see experience's like yours in here. The more ways and wherefores we have at our disposal to normalise our blood glucose the better.
     
  15. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I found myself falling off the I.F. wagon, so to speak, in the weekend in particular, so was very relieved to read in here that as far as that **** goes - **** happens! Or can do. So thanks Brunneria for sharing your similar experiences! (And I love the new pic!)

    I have also read somewhere online (I think, bizarrely it was a bodybuilding website) that when you find yourself lapsing, or falling more dramatically off the wagon you just climb back on again and carry on. Seemed sensible advice! As I just ate 8 pieces of dairy milk hazelnut chocolate to try and make myself feel better I guess I had better be on the wagon this afternoon for sure!

    I hate the idea of deprivation and wagon riding, so I guess I need another way to frame this.... I'll write it up when I come up with it!

    Anyway. Yes. Socialising can put a stick in the wheel of the I.F.-ing. Socialising is really good for my blood glucose (I am nearly always in a good range afterwards), but not for sticking to routines, so I like Brunneria's idea of adapting the I.F. to your social life/weekend as needs be.

    Or, I need to get better at stalling eating the next day till later. (So far - a big negative.) (Gee I get hungry.) (And I am not very nice tempered when I have both high blood glucose and I am hungry. My poor nearest and dearest!)

    At the moment I have a life full to overflowing with bureaucracy and form filling and phone calls and so on, and I get grumpy and annoyed and generally evil tempered dealing with a lot of such stuff. Hence me turning to chocolate to try and do something about my feeling so pissey. I have sadly too gotten my cravings for sweet back, after a really long time of not craving sweet since diagnosis. (Hmm, yes, I do see the interconnection.) Of course I am scared as all hell by this. A diabetic with rising glycation and a growing burgeoning sweet tooth - ouch!

    Chocolate - and going for a walk! Walking in the fresh air has been a good way for me to deal with the high irritation levels that come with higher blood glucose for me. (I guess I had better walk to the one shop in town which stocks stevia sweetened 80% cacao dark chocolate.) (Now I'm irritated by the idea of having to walk to the one shop in town which stocks.....)

    My fasting blood glucose was getting better before my I.F. starting getting mucked up and I began eating more sweet things. Now it is going up and down rather a lot. And I am finding being hungry in the morning hard, particularly when I wake up early, which makes sense. And now I'm down to my last 10 blood glucose testing strips, and have to get on the phone and fill in forms and so on and so forth to get more. And my blood glucose is probably going really high from those 8 pieces of hazelnut chocolate...

    (And I can't put off taking my poor breaking computer to the shop to get fixed any longer!)

    Oh dear.
     
  16. Suzysuze1

    Suzysuze1 Prediabetes · Member

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    Thank you Claire, that's all most helpful. I don't have extreme thirst and loo trips quite like that, but if I eat an average amount of any carb at all, I get blurred vision and I might need the loo a couple of times in the following two hours. My legs would feel weak or slightly crampy too. It began with gestational diabetes which seemed to have cleared up, and now over 2 years on my levels are off again (6.5 fasting in April). I won't have any definitive answers until I get the hba1c done in a couple of weeks. But from dinner at 7pm, bar a snack of almonds or cheese at bedtime, I have quite high bg in the mornings. My BMI is 22 so it's not a weight issue...
     
  17. Truffle

    Truffle Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear AloeSvea - I know what it is like - both to fall off the wagon and to give in to the chocolate cravings!! If my son hadn't liberated a box of malteasers from me on Sunday most of them would have been demolished.

    It also quite hard to get your head around not eating but I must be a bit of a sadist as I now find it quite enjoyable to feel hungry. I never feel starving or in danger of having a massive binge but I really like having a large plate of food in front of me at the end of the day! I find the weekends difficult as I allow myself to eat both lunch and supper and want to snack in between and find it easier when I don't have the choice and only eat once.

    I get up early everyday (4.45am) as I am at work by 7am and walk the dog first. I used to think about eating by 8 am but after nearly 4 weeks of not eating in the morning I don't think about it anymore.
    I am definitely going to keep doing this form of eating for 3 months so I can have the HbA1c and other tests to see what effect there has been on the overall levels.
     
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  18. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I hear you Truffle! :). My chocolate cravings and eating didn't end then either. And I haven't got to the store yet that sells stevia sweetened chocolate. (Today! yay!)

    I wish I was like you, and the folk who didn't suffer during a VLCD, like I did. And my skinny partner skips meals all the time with no suffering whatsoever. But I have all always been hunger-sensitive, so it must be something to do with hormones and leptin levels and so on and so forth. (And my siblings and I are infamous for having hearty appetites and eating people out of house and home if given the chance to.) I guess I am saying it must be a key difference for people - how they experience hunger, and their appetites. I quite commonly say to my skinny partner that I wish I had his body on my head, or I was him, so I could go hungry and not suffer, but then I wouldn't be a diabetic and...and then it ends up being like trying to work out The Terminator timeline ;) :). (And I can't do that even when I have normalised blood glucose!)

    But I am forcing myself to not eat again in the morning, and am thinking through a plan where I change the meals I skip to fit in with social functions, so I can eat with family and friends and still 15/9. (ie skip dinner on the days when a shared breakfast is scheduled - that kind of thing.) (I love breakfast too much to cook it for others and not want to eat it myself, especially if it's a paleo/LCHF breakfast.) I hope I can stop my rise upwards in the HBA1c chart/liver and pancreas dysfunctioning too, with this IF.

    Who wants to go hungry and suffer for no health reward? Gee, not me, that's for sure. (Beginning to get veeeeerrrryyy woozzzzy, because I ate some vege crisps at 10.30 last night, so now I have to wait another two hours for brunch :(.) (Reminding myself about how much I like having my feet, and being able to see, not getting a stroke/parkinsons/alzheimers, see grandchildren one day....:).)
    (And if it doesn't work... learning to live happily without feet.... etc.) (But it ain't over till it's over...ok, I'll stop now.)
     
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  19. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Bought scales while away from home in order to track my weight. Realised I am heartily sick of looking at the scales over the last six months. And I am heartily sick of having to go hungry for periods of time! Not good, having decided to IF :-/.

    I'm 70kg, and normal weight. Have been since 3 or so months after diagnosis when I put my eating and motion into overhaul. But I realise that to have normal blood glucose levels, with my liver and pancreas mis-functioning as they do, I need to be around 5kg lighter - ie lean. (Which I was post the D-ND. And according to Prof Taylor's Personal Fat Threshold Theory.) Being lean after decades of having belly fat to some degree (even if the rest of me wasn't fat my belly has been) is hard hard hungry work. (It's not hard for me to be normal weight as a paleo-betic.)

    Is it better, possible, to get lean gradually? My guess is the only way for me, bar doing the semi-starvation/VLCD thing again. (Which I am in absolutely no hurry to do! Two months of my life on hold to do that.) Will I be able to adapt better to IFing, ie not feel I can't move much in the morning until I have eaten (How I currently feel, after two and a half weeks of 15/9ing.) Can I ever get lean again? Is it a realistic goal? Is it the only way I will be as healthy as I can be?

    I have come to the conclusion if I have an appetite/leptin thing going on, that makes me not deal well with hunger and skipping meals, even just one meal, it is damage that was done a long long time ago (I have always been like this, always as far as I can remember), or, I was just born this way. (ditto.)

    I looked at Dr Mercola's IF chart online the other night, and he shows folk confining their eating to just 6 hours 12-6pm. I wanted to die of lethargy and hunger just looking at it! But I can see how it works for many, for some, many, regarding regulating insulin and blood glucose, and regulating eating and energy levels.

    Hmmm. Will keep thinking about this. Whilst continuing to not eat at night, and skipping eating when I get up in the morning (ie 15/9ing). And then see if my FBG has improved once I get glucose test strips again. How long should it be before one sees an improvement in one's BG?
     
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  20. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    The hunger thing is my biggest issue with fasting.

    It isnt really about whether i can endure the discomfort - of course i can - for a while.
    But historically, every attempt i have made to use hunger as a diet-tool (in 30+ years of dieting) has ended with disaster, and falling into a feeding frenzy.

    I've experienced every stage - the buoyant fasting high, the slight spaciness, the fervent enthusiasm, the sense of revulsion at the sight of an egg yoke... But months or days later, my appetite ALWAYS slips out of control, with a vengeance. Rebound. End up bigger than the start.

    So i have eventually learned that slower, gentler, and sustainably is the only thing that my body actually responds to in a positive way (unfortunately, this revelation was AFTER i had messed up my metabolism and switched on my thrifty gene)

    So I'm still checking out whether intermittent fasting works for my current body.

    I have a theory, you see, that all those years that i 'skipped breakfast and feel fine' are what trained my body to create a silly-high dawn phenomenon.
     
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