Is 15kgs weight-loss the limit ?

[AnEmigrant]

Hi everybody, I'm new here.

I was made aware of Professor Taylor's ideas, and as I'm a fairly disciplined person thought I'd give it a try. I've been T2 for around 15 years, discovered by accident, and managed without medication for a couple of years, after which I decided to have more fun (and booze!) ending up medicated and around 90 kgs.

The result is this, after 72 days: yes I've lost my 15 kgs, but have remained at precisely that weight (75 kgs) for a week now, so weight loss seems [?] to have ground to a halt. Taking Professor Taylor's comments on board, I had intended to keep going until I was at my 'old' (mid-twenties) weight of "ten-and-a-half stone" (67 kgs) but I'm starting to wonder if a loss of 15 kgs is the limit. I've been on Nestle Chocolate shakes (3 x 200 cal) plus my lovely home-made vegetable soup for 'dinner', but over the last week have ditched one of the shakes, but that's made no difference to my weight whatsoever.

The other side of the coin is my blood-sugar, which surprisingly quickly was quite astonishing. I'm still taking my meds (though I reduced gliclazide by 50%) but my blood-sugar readings are now like 'normal' = overnight steady average of 4.8, with post-prandial no higher than 6.6, and I'm actually looking forward to doing an HbA1c test in a week or so.

So on the one hand, I'm looking good, but on the other, have I gone as far as I can go? When Professor Taylor talks of 15kgs (specifically) is that the limit?

Any thoughts?

P.S. Don't misunderstand me, I've not given up, but I have to say my confidence is a little dented.

 

[Outlier]

Weight loss isn't linear, and as we get nearer to the weight we want to be it gets harder because we get to a point where we can't eat any less or exercise any more. We say here that it is a marathon not a sprint. Bodies seek homeostasis and only gradually alter weight downwards, because that is a survival mechanism. We are programmed to hold weight in the good times to see us over the bad times. Some of us still develop diabetes even though we are a suitable weight, or sometimes underweight, and with a very healthy lifestyle.

I too would like to know whether it is reasonable to expect a weight loss that would take me to the weight I was in my 20s and 30s. I am, after 3 years of working on it, and with my blood glucose in non-diabetic levels for most of that time, within 1 pound of that weight. I have been fighting that pound for weeks. I have no idea if I am being realistic, but I am my own experiment as you are yours.

You are right at the beginning of this. See and please share where it takes you because your experiences will help others. You have done brilliantly! But this is a long task, and none of us can put a general timescale on it.

 

[KennyA]

Hi everybody, I'm new here.

I was made aware of Professor Taylor's ideas, and as I'm a fairly disciplined person thought I'd give it a try. I've been T2 for around 15 years, discovered by accident, and managed without medication for a couple of years, after which I decided to have more fun (and booze!) ending up medicated and around 90 kgs.

The result is this, after 72 days: yes I've lost my 15 kgs, but have remained at precisely that weight (75 kgs) for a week now, so weight loss seems [?] to have ground to a halt. Taking Professor Taylor's comments on board, I had intended to keep going until I was at my 'old' (mid-twenties) weight of "ten-and-a-half stone" (67 kgs) but I'm starting to wonder if a loss of 15 kgs is the limit. I've been on Nestle Chocolate shakes (3 x 200 cal) plus my lovely home-made vegetable soup for 'dinner', but over the last week have ditched one of the shakes, but that's made no difference to my weight whatsoever.

The other side of the coin is my blood-sugar, which surprisingly quickly was quite astonishing. I'm still taking my meds (though I reduced gliclazide by 50%) but my blood-sugar readings are now like 'normal' = overnight steady average of 4.8, with post-prandial no higher than 6.6, and I'm actually looking forward to doing an HbA1c test in a week or so.

So on the one hand, I'm looking good, but on the other, have I gone as far as I can go? When Professor Taylor talks of 15kgs (specifically) is that the limit?

Any thoughts?

P.S. Don't misunderstand me, I've not given up, but I have to say my confidence is a little dented.

Hi and welcome.

My experience is that on a very low carb diet (~20g/day) - not the Taylor approach - the first thing to happen to me was that my blood glucose normalised. No meds. This happened really quickly in less than four months, and almost all my diabetic symptoms went at the same time. Weight loss followed. The total loss over five years is around six stone/40 kg. Not sure because I don't really know where I was when I started, and I was concentrating on my bg levels so didn't pay the weight loss much attention at first.

However the thing was that while in the first two years the weight/fat loss was fairly rapid, it soon became obvious that there would be periods of loss, followed by a plateau, followed by more loss. I've noticed that I don't lose much in summer, in particular.

It got more complex when I started exercising. Weight loss almost stopped while fat loss didn't. For example, my weight has stayed fairly steady for a year, but my waist has shrunk a further two inches in the same time. I put this down to regaining muscle. This is fine as I am now pretty much where I wanted (and want) to be and my "weight" isn't really the issue.

So if my experience is any guide, much more than 15kg is possible. Whether it's possible on calorie restriction, I don't know, because calorie restriction never worked for me. One of the things that folks on this forum report is that restricting calories tends to provoke the body into slowing metabolism, so that it can deal with the reduction in fuel supply. In contrast the low carb approach (to greatly simplify) focuses on reducing intake of the one fuel that's stored as fat.

 

[AnEmigrant]

Weight loss isn't linear, and as we get nearer to the weight we want to be it gets harder because we get to a point where we can't eat any less or exercise any more. We say here that it is a marathon not a sprint. Bodies seek homeostasis and only gradually alter weight downwards, because that is a survival mechanism. We are programmed to hold weight in the good times to see us over the bad times. Some of us still develop diabetes even though we are a suitable weight, or sometimes underweight, and with a very healthy lifestyle.

I too would like to know whether it is reasonable to expect a weight loss that would take me to the weight I was in my 20s and 30s. I am, after 3 years of working on it, and with my blood glucose in non-diabetic levels for most of that time, within 1 pound of that weight. I have been fighting that pound for weeks. I have no idea if I am being realistic, but I am my own experiment as you are yours.

You are right at the beginning of this. See and please share where it takes you because your experiences will help others. You have done brilliantly! But this is a long task, and none of us can put a general timescale on it.

Thanks, Outlier, for your thoughts. What you say is something of a philosophical challenge, and I will have to work through its deep meaning as I go, and hopefully progress. Nonetheless, it's always comforting to appreciate others have trodden the same ground, and I will indeed keep you informed. After all, control of blood sugar has been achieved, and I'll see about gradually removing the props the medication provides -- I've started that and the blood sugar so far has not spiked. To focus on the weight in purely numerical terms was not the original objective, and if I can control the disease in the way I originally did (by a rigorous approach to nutrition) then that alone will be a reward. I've never actually run a marathon, but I have survived a few intellectually, and if each step represents a 'pound' rather than a 'kilogram' then I may reasonably expect a modest reward 2.2 times sooner

 

[AnEmigrant]

Hi and welcome.

My experience is that on a very low carb diet (~20g/day) - not the Taylor approach - the first thing to happen to me was that my blood glucose normalised. No meds. This happened really quickly in less than four months, and almost all my diabetic symptoms went at the same time. Weight loss followed. The total loss over five years is around six stone/40 kg. Not sure because I don't really know where I was when I started, and I was concentrating on my bg levels so didn't pay the weight loss much attention at first.

However the thing was that while in the first two years the weight/fat loss was fairly rapid, it soon became obvious that there would be periods of loss, followed by a plateau, followed by more loss. I've noticed that I don't lose much in summer, in particular.

It got more complex when I started exercising. Weight loss almost stopped while fat loss didn't. For example, my weight has stayed fairly steady for a year, but my waist has shrunk a further two inches in the same time. I put this down to regaining muscle. This is fine as I am now pretty much where I wanted (and want) to be and my "weight" isn't really the issue.

So if my experience is any guide, much more than 15kg is possible. Whether it's possible on calorie restriction, I don't know, because calorie restriction never worked for me. One of the things that folks on this forum report is that restricting calories tends to provoke the body into slowing metabolism, so that it can deal with the reduction in fuel supply. In contrast the low carb approach (to greatly simplify) focuses on reducing intake of the one fuel that's stored as fat.

Thanks Kenny, for this encouraging story, and introduction 1. to the subtleties of progress and 2. to a longer timescale. Also thanks for the links to the Low Carb element and information, this represents a further tool I'll explore when I get off the 'shakes' and back to something a bit more like breakfast! These replies have been really and genuinely helpful. Thank you.

 

[MrsA2]

For me, the aim was bg reduction.
Any weight loss was a happy side effect.
Since the first quick loss I seem to have put about another 10lbs back on. But my bg remains under control and I stay (mostly) low carb. I still enjoy life, especially the social side and the food it involves.
I dont see myself as on a (short term) diet, but eating this way for the rest of my life.

Yes I could increase exercise and/or fasting, or decrease carbs even further but, at the moment, I'm happy with my levels , both bg and weight

Where would you be happy to be for the rest of your life?

One of the issues with the Newcastle diet is what after, and I hope you find the way that suits you.

 

[AnEmigrant]

Hi MrsA2
I come at this from a quite specific angle: a doctor (not my GP) mentioned he'd seen a YouTube video about T2 remission, and when I looked at it I realised that 'Roy Taylor' was someone I 'knew', as it were -- as the Professor who diagnosed my (adoptive) sister's illness, as well as (posthumously) that of her mother: MELAS Syndrome. Additionally my sister had also worked as a social worker in Newcastle General. So, I thought OK, I'll give it a go. What do I have to lose -- other than some kilos. Initial weight loss was astonishing, as was the almost immediate 'repair' of my blood sugar readings, into the zone that is listed as 'normal'. And I hooked onto the idea Professor Taylor mentioned that there was no 'medical' reason why you shouldn't get back to the weight you were at 25, which I seem to rememebr was "ten-and-a-half-stone" -- in old money, that is. So here I am. What I found was that while my blood sugar remains absolutely legal and stable (even as I reduce my medication) the weight loss was slowing, and even beginning to hover around the 15 kilograms this whole scheme was 'sold' with. Hence my presence here. I'm slightly cheating, in that I left the yUK years ago, and live in sunny Sydney (not sunny this week) -- a refugee from the Thatcher years. And we have our own Newcastle here. I'm a Londoner anyway. Still a Londonder, ever though I can now also call myself a Sydneysider.

To answer your question, I'll be happy (or unhappy!) however it turns out. However, this has become a Project, and one I'm finding rewarding, the main point being that I may indeed be able to say, at some point, "I used to be Type Two". I'm 73 and have had a lot of fun with life, so it's all a bonus ... though I AM looking forward to a long awaited breakfast !

All the best to you and your efforts.

 

[MrsA2]

Hi MrsA2
I come at this from a quite specific angle: a doctor (not my GP) mentioned he'd seen a YouTube video about T2 remission, and when I looked at it I realised that 'Roy Taylor' was someone I 'knew', as it were -- as the Professor who diagnosed my (adoptive) sister's illness, as well as (posthumously) that of her mother: MELAS Syndrome. Additionally my sister had also worked as a social worker in Newcastle General. So, I thought OK, I'll give it a go. What do I have to lose -- other than some kilos. Initial weight loss was astonishing, as was the almost immediate 'repair' of my blood sugar readings, into the zone that is listed as 'normal'. And I hooked onto the idea Professor Taylor mentioned that there was no 'medical' reason why you shouldn't get back to the weight you were at 25, which I seem to rememebr was "ten-and-a-half-stone" -- in old money, that is. So here I am. What I found was that while my blood sugar remains absolutely legal and stable (even as I reduce my medication) the weight loss was slowing, and even beginning to hover around the 15 kilograms this whole scheme was 'sold' with. Hence my presence here. I'm slightly cheating, in that I left the yUK years ago, and live in sunny Sydney (not sunny this week) -- a refugee from the Thatcher years. And we have our own Newcastle here. I'm a Londoner anyway. Still a Londonder, ever though I can now also call myself a Sydneysider.

To answer your question, I'll be happy (or unhappy!) however it turns out. However, this has become a Project, and one I'm finding rewarding, the main point being that I may indeed be able to say, at some point, "I used to be Type Two". I'm 73 and have had a lot of fun with life, so it's all a bonus ... though I AM looking forward to a long awaited breakfast !

All the best to you and your efforts.

Editted to add Bacon! How could i forget bacon?

A good breakfast is one of the joys of low carb eating. High meat content, sausage, eggs, mushroom, or how about a 3 eggs omelette or even steak

Sorry if it makes you drool...you'll get there

 

[AloeSvea]

Hi @AnEmigrant! I will be looking on your Project's journeying with great interest. And big thanks for sharing these things, as it will certainly add, does add, to us all getting a better understanding of type 2's complexities.

(And, I might add, the complexities of the internet being a global platform, and, even this one touted as such for global English-speakers, not 'just' the English! So be in peace for being a new-Australian , indeed you could've called yourself 'An immigrant' just as easily! In fact - more correctly?) (Mind you, I do like your joking about the second Newcastle and you doing your Newcastle Diet.)

Anyway, back to the complexities. I've gone the Very Low Calorie Diet route a couple of times in order to get as close to my youthful weight as possible, a la Prof Taylor. I didn't.

But I did get within cooee of it, 3 kg last summer (our hemisphere's summer! ie the southern), due to a very intense job and lots of weight lifting and just normal walking exercise. To 58kg, when youthful weight was 55kg. This co-incided with a gradual increase in my HBA1 c which alas for me, has not stopped. So - my contribution to the complexities of type 2!

i believe projects/experimentations/big efforts are always worthwhile, regardless of whether remission is achieved or not. As you can learn a lot about how your particular metabolism plays out in how your particular diabetes plays out. Which can only be good, imho.

Age and duration of disease are part of the picture, as Taylor et al also factor in. And to use the Swede's English words for it - how mild or severe your diabetes is. Which could reflect different organ/system breakdowns, or intensity of damage if you like. Theoretically, this is knowledge that you can use to your health status advantage. One would imagine. (I am imagining in any case!)

 

[AnEmigrant]

Editted to add Bacon! How could i forget bacon?

A good breakfast is one of the joys of low carb eating. High meat content, sausage, eggs, mushroom, or how about a 3 eggs omelette or even steak

Sorry if it makes you drool...you'll get there

Err ... Vegetarian.

 

[AnEmigrant]

Hi @AnEmigrant! I will be looking on your Project's journeying with great interest. And big thanks for sharing these things, as it will certainly add, does add, to us all getting a better understanding of type 2's complexities.

(And, I might add, the complexities of the internet being a global platform, and, even this one touted as such for global English-speakers, not 'just' the English! So be in peace for being a new-Australian , indeed you could've called yourself 'An immigrant' just as easily! In fact - more correctly?) (Mind you, I do like your joking about the second Newcastle and you doing your Newcastle Diet.)

Anyway, back to the complexities. I've gone the Very Low Calorie Diet route a couple of times in order to get as close to my youthful weight as possible, a la Prof Taylor. I didn't.

But I did get within cooee of it, 3 kg last summer (our hemisphere's summer! ie the southern), due to a very intense job and lots of weight lifting and just normal walking exercise. To 58kg, when youthful weight was 55kg. This co-incided with a gradual increase in my HBA1 c which alas for me, has not stopped. So - my contribution to the complexities of type 2!

i believe projects/experimentations/big efforts are always worthwhile, regardless of whether remission is achieved or not. As you can learn a lot about how your particular metabolism plays out in how your particular diabetes plays out. Which can only be good, imho.

Age and duration of disease are part of the picture, as Taylor et al also factor in. And to use the Swede's English words for it - how mild or severe your diabetes is. Which could reflect different organ/system breakdowns, or intensity of damage if you like. Theoretically, this is knowledge that you can use to your health status advantage. One would imagine. (I am imagining in any case!)

Greetings Well-Known Member Aloe, from across The Pond. Emi/Imi is an interesting distinction and an often revealing question. True-Blue Aussies always assume people are itching to get to their bonza country, whereas I remind people that you must wish to LEAVE HOME first.

... the truth is I got chatty at this point, forgot where I was, and wrote too much for the system to handle ...

Back on topic, and let's hope this will 'send'. I suspect I'm lucky, and in fact have always referred to myself as "mildly diabetic" perhaps because my (adoptive) mother and sister were both Type 1, and instances of The MELAS Syndrome, so "serious", even as far as "fatal". So maybe I'm something of an interloper here, a fraud: a Londoner but not English, not Sydneysider but not Australian, and now it may seem that my "astonishing" blood-sugar fix reflected merely that my Diabetes was only ever marginal. I'd been made aware that I have a 'Fatty Liver', so Prof Taylor's theoretical position immediately made sense. The "Severe" word in your "SIRD" sounds much more serious, and I'm sorry for your lameness. Is it associated? I manage a short walk, daily if I can manage it, but was never a real hiker. I have a neuroma (nerve tumour) in one foot, so brevity is required. You seem to be saying that the weight aspect of your journey has been a success -- kudos for that. My weight has gone up and down, though in recent (mature) years, up only. But that may have been work-related, in that my 'original' profession was often a high-energy affair. I played in a Dance Hall at one point, after a more sedentary period of writing, and the weight just fell off me. Thanks for your 'post' and the view from your perspective. My closing remark is yesterday I dropped my Gliclazide down to 75% of the prescribed dose, and it hasn't affected my daily blood-sugar reading in the least, so that's a rousing note to end on.

 

[Antje77]

... the truth is I got chatty at this point, forgot where I was, and wrote too much for the system to handle ...

Usually happens with longer posts, especially with multiple quotes or links, and I think it also happens when you take a long time writing it before posting.
If you get the "Oops" message, select your complete post, quotes and all, cut, and then paste again, and hit the Post Reply button.

 

[Chris24Main]

For me, and in my personal experience, if you reduce insulin levels by reducing starches and sugars, visceral fat comes down (with vastly lower serum triglycerides), weight comes down without loosing muscle or feeling hungry, and in time you can achieve remission (I did).

I agree with some others that there is more to long term remission than lowering blood glucose... but this is also linked to insulin... one needs to lower insulin resistance throughout the body, and you do that by lowering sugars and starches. Its maybe better thought of as a longer term project though, or better still as a permanent change (that's at least how I think of it, but I'm only a year or so on my journey...)

I don't ultimately think it need be any more complicated than that.

..and increasing the time you have, not eating (some may call that intermittent fasting, but really you can call it anything).

[edited for clarity and relevance to OP]

 

[AnEmigrant]

I lost the thread, back there -- literally -- but clearly have found it again. However, there's a long reply missing, and I've yet to thank that person. My apologies, for the "back of an envelope" critique, and the heaps of science-based information it contained. Thanks for that, and the heap of knowledge to absorb. Also I have good news: my GP has cancelled my Gliclazide, and halved the Jardiance dose, so I must be heading in the right direction.

So -- conclusion -- I feel comfortable with my situation now, and the uncertainty has gone. Maybe I'll scale down to 67 kgs, maybe not, but my direction is healthy, and that was the original purpose.

I'm grateful for all the voices of support, and wonderful amounts of very real (personal) information. This forum is both valuable, and valued.

 

[Chris24Main]

@AnEmigrant - that's fantastic news, really good work on reducing your meds. That is definitely a good direction to be heading in!!

In the end, I think that has to be the most powerful motivator for all of us, though the specifics will be different for each of us, and each of us will have our own set of things we feel important, but to feel confident that you are on the right track, and comfortable with where you are in the moment; that's what we are all aiming for...

 

[AloeSvea]

Greetings Well-Known Member Aloe, from across The Pond. Emi/Imi is an interesting distinction and an often revealing question. True-Blue Aussies always assume people are itching to get to their bonza country, whereas I remind people that you must wish to LEAVE HOME first.

... the truth is I got chatty at this point, forgot where I was, and wrote too much for the system to handle ...

Back on topic, and let's hope this will 'send'. I suspect I'm lucky, and in fact have always referred to myself as "mildly diabetic" perhaps because my (adoptive) mother and sister were both Type 1, and instances of The MELAS Syndrome, so "serious", even as far as "fatal". So maybe I'm something of an interloper here, a fraud: a Londoner but not English, not Sydneysider but not Australian, and now it may seem that my "astonishing" blood-sugar fix reflected merely that my Diabetes was only ever marginal. I'd been made aware that I have a 'Fatty Liver', so Prof Taylor's theoretical position immediately made sense. The "Severe" word in your "SIRD" sounds much more serious, and I'm sorry for your lameness. Is it associated? I manage a short walk, daily if I can manage it, but was never a real hiker. I have a neuroma (nerve tumour) in one foot, so brevity is required. You seem to be saying that the weight aspect of your journey has been a success -- kudos for that. My weight has gone up and down, though in recent (mature) years, up only. But that may have been work-related, in that my 'original' profession was often a high-energy affair. I played in a Dance Hall at one point, after a more sedentary period of writing, and the weight just fell off me. Thanks for your 'post' and the view from your perspective. My closing remark is yesterday I dropped my Gliclazide down to 75% of the prescribed dose, and it hasn't affected my daily blood-sugar reading in the least, so that's a rousing note to end on.

Hi again there emi/immi! . Being chatty is lovely! Have no fear.

So you have mild type two? Fair enough. The Swedes divide mild diabetes into Mild Age-Related Diabetes and Mild Obesity-related Diabetes (MARD and MOD, no less ).

Warning - following description of type two diabetes complications and potential cause of death may be disturbing. Practice caution in proceeding to read if sensitive to such (I have obvlously been reading caution notices on tv streaming programs rather a lot recently!)

The difference between mild and severe is not, in this labeling system from Lund University (and in my own opinion, for what it is worth), between the two major different types of diabetes - type 1 and type 2. Type 2 as in having either insulin resistance or pancreatic breakdown/damage underlying it, as opposed to coming from an auto immune disorder - as in type 1 (called SAID - Severe Auto-Immune Diabetes in this labelling system).

To clarify for our discussion. There is in fact nothing mild about type two diabetics suffering from what is uncharmingly described, again in my opinion at least, from the worst of type 2 complications - of kidney disease, blindness, and gangrene leading to amputations. And, from CVD - the major 'complication' of which many folks with type two diabetes will die from.

But back to MARD and MOD. Being able to achieve remission from weight loss, way of eating change, and periods of fasting or fasting, will in fact support your understanding of your own type of type two being of the mild kind. The 15 years thing though - so is more likely to be MOD than MARD? Or?

My own experience - and that is all it is, along with my understandings and study of my type of type two in particular, is that SIRD as well as being very insulin resistant off and on for many decades, is very resistant to achieving a reboot of good blood glucose regulation, in all its complexity (which will take me to another reply/comment below ).

You are very kind to remark on my recent lameness! Yes - a complete pain indeed. and no, not due to my SIRD, but absolutely affecting it, as I am a hyper responder to exercise, so when the hiking went, so went the last vestiges of my blood glucose control, sadly, it seems. Along with other complicating aspects of my current 'lifestyle'.

And many thanks for the kudos for the weight loss thing. I am lucky that the low-carbing way of eating worked well for me, and I have a mildly OCD part of my personality, so intermittent fasting longterm is also something I can do. Since discovering the profound affect of ultra-processed food, sugar, and wheat on my weight and body composition it has been good re normal weight maintenance. I have to either buy ultra processed and expensive low-carb food, or cook and bake it myself, but - c'est la vie! As a person with diabetes treating with food at least.

It is indeed unfortunate that that does not translate to blood glucose control for me. Tracking my blood pressure, my trig/HDL ratio and LDL/HDL ratio - I am banking on the fact that it is keeping my heart health on track at least, as it is not my BG regulating organs.