LCHF: Eating saturated fat may not cause high cholesterol but......

[Weens12]

.....what other (undesirable) effect might it have on your body?

This is from a blog I follow. The author has been managing his T2 diabetes without medication for 13 years... yes, that's right, 13 years!

He does so, simply by diet and exercise alone. He blogs on his progress, and seems, to me at least, to have a very balanced approach to management of his diabetes.
He has experimented over those 13 years with different diets and exercise, and tested his blood to see the effect. So he has a lot of experience, and as such, knows what works for him and what doesn't. Remember we are all different, but this subject may affect us all.

This is from his latest blog, on the subject of a newly published Swedish study. Admittedly, it's a small sample study, only 39 people.... but the results show that saturated fat is apparently more likely to promote accumulation of liver fat and visceral fat than unsaturated fat.

He says:
...... "I no longer believe that saturated fat raises blood cholesterol. I have had ample opportunity to experiment with different diets in the years since my diabetes diagnosis, and I still get the same low cholesterol readings on my lab results regardless of whether my diet is centered around bacon or brussels sprouts. For me, what matters is how much I exercise, not what kind of fats I'm including in my diet; once I started a regular exercise program my cholesterol numbers dropped sharply, and haven't climbed back despite all sorts of different approaches to diet.

However, the mere fact that saturated fat doesn't appear to be the cholesterol-raising villain that we were told it was does not mean saturated fat has no other effects which might be undesirable. I am still willing to be told that evidence has been found for other reasons to minimize saturated fat in the diet.

A new study from Sweden claims to have found such evidence"......

The result: "Despite comparable weight gains between the two diet groups, the surplus consumption of saturated fat caused a markedly greater increase in the amount of fat in the liver and abdomen (especially the fat surrounding the internal organs, visceral fat) in comparison with the surplus consumption of polyunsaturated fat. Moreover the total amount of body fat was greater in the saturated fat group, while, on the other hand, the increase in muscle mass was three times less for those who ate saturated fat compared with those who ate polyunsaturated fat. Thus, gaining weight on excess calories from polyunsaturated fat caused more gain in muscle mass, and less body fat than overeating a similar amount of saturated fat."

"So there you have it. Saturated fat is apparently more likely to promote accumulation of liver fat and visceral fat -- both of which are associated with diabetes and heart disease -- than unsaturated fat."

Food for thought?

 

[Scandichic]

.....what other (undesirable) effect might it have on your body?

This is from a blog I follow. The author has been managing his T2 diabetes without medication for 13 years... yes, that's right, 13 years!

He does so, simply by diet and exercise alone. He blogs on his progress, and seems, to me at least, to have a very balanced approach to management of his diabetes.
He has experimented over those 13 years with different diets and exercise, and tested his blood to see the effect. So he has a lot of experience, and as such, knows what works for him and what doesn't. Remember we are all different, but this subject may affect us all.

This is from his latest blog, on the subject of a newly published Swedish study. Admittedly, it's a small sample study, only 39 people.... but the results show that saturated fat is apparently more likely to promote accumulation of liver fat and visceral fat than unsaturated fat.

He says:
...... "I no longer believe that saturated fat raises blood cholesterol. I have had ample opportunity to experiment with different diets in the years since my diabetes diagnosis, and I still get the same low cholesterol readings on my lab results regardless of whether my diet is centered around bacon or brussels sprouts. For me, what matters is how much I exercise, not what kind of fats I'm including in my diet; once I started a regular exercise program my cholesterol numbers dropped sharply, and haven't climbed back despite all sorts of different approaches to diet.

However, the mere fact that saturated fat doesn't appear to be the cholesterol-raising villain that we were told it was does not mean saturated fat has no other effects which might be undesirable. I am still willing to be told that evidence has been found for other reasons to minimize saturated fat in the diet.

A new study from Sweden claims to have found such evidence"......

The result: "Despite comparable weight gains between the two diet groups, the surplus consumption of saturated fat caused a markedly greater increase in the amount of fat in the liver and abdomen (especially the fat surrounding the internal organs, visceral fat) in comparison with the surplus consumption of polyunsaturated fat. Moreover the total amount of body fat was greater in the saturated fat group, while, on the other hand, the increase in muscle mass was three times less for those who ate saturated fat compared with those who ate polyunsaturated fat. Thus, gaining weight on excess calories from polyunsaturated fat caused more gain in muscle mass, and less body fat than overeating a similar amount of saturated fat."

"So there you have it. Saturated fat is apparently more likely to promote accumulation of liver fat and visceral fat -- both of which are associated with diabetes and heart disease -- than unsaturated fat."

Food for thought?

Surely it's about moderation. Just because I eat LCHF, doesn't mean I sit there scoffing whole packets of cheese! My understanding is that carbohydrate and fat are both sources of energy. As a diabetic fat is not harmful to me in sensible quantities but carbs are, especially quick releasing ones, as they raise my bs and cause problems with insulin. A typical day for me might be: bacon and eggs, Greek yoghurt and blueberries, salmon, hollandaise sauce and plenty of green veggies. I may have a piece of cheese as a snack.

 

[douglas99]

Surely it's about moderation. Just because I eat LCHF, doesn't mean I sit there scoffing whole packets of cheese! My understanding is that carbohydrate and fat are both sources of energy. As a diabetic fat is not harmful to me in sensible quantities but carbs are, especially quick releasing ones, as they raise my bs and cause problems with insulin. A typical day for me might be: bacon and eggs, Greek yoghurt and blueberries, salmon, hollandaise sauce and plenty of green veggies. I may have a piece of cheese as a snack.

I think that's why Low carb is often misunderstood, as everyone does it differently, from yourself as above, to others that actively add 50g of saturated fat to their coffee, or into soup etc, and to me, who probably is falling under the definition of low carb merely by restricting calories overall, but also avoiding fats for the same reason, and actively avoiding saturated fats in favour of unsaturated.

 

[Scandichic]

I think that's why Low carb is often misunderstood, as everyone does it differently, from yourself as above, to others that actively add 50g of saturated fat to their coffee, or into soup etc, and to me, who probably is falling under the definition of low carb merely by restricting calories overall, but also avoiding fats for the same reason, and actively avoiding saturated fats in favour of unsaturated.

Quick question - do you ever feel hungry? Could you give some examples of what you eat for a day? Interested as we love Puy lentils and I miss knäckebröd (nearest is probably ryevita - they've definitely improved over the years) but I also adore cheese, salmon, eggs (not big meat eater apart from bacon and chicken breast) .

 

[douglas99]

Quick question - do you ever feel hungry? Could you give some examples of what you eat for a day? Interested as we love Puy lentils and I miss knäckebröd (nearest is probably ryevita - they've definitely improved over the years) but I also adore cheese, salmon, eggs (not big meat eater apart from bacon and chicken breast) .

Yes, I feel hungry.
If it's because I'm hungry, I'll eat.
A lot of the time it was habit, or boredom, so now I don't respond to it, but get up and do something else.
I expect not to be completely stuffed after meals, I eat little and often, and keep the GI/GL down.

Breakfast this morning was dry fried mushrooms on a slice of livlife bread.
I'm feeling nibbly now, and as the rest of the house are grilling bacon, I'm going to have a slice on another couple of pieces of bread.
Then going out, so that'll last until the evening.

Usually breakfast is a couple of ryvita though, and a slice of low fat cheese, and a slice of ham between them.
I expect that to last until about 11ish, then I'll have a yoghurt, or fruit.
Lunch at 1 ish is a salad, with fish or similar.
Evening meal can be anything, Low GI, fish, quorn, lean meat, a lot of veg, usually a lot of spice.
Beans are mostly ok, some lentils, but not all, chickpeas, basmati rive, quinoa, I'm ok with.
Snacks can be low fat cheese, oat biscuits, a few olives, fruit, usually mid afternoon, and later evening.

I don't particularly work the calories out per meal now, I used to, and know what I can put together now.
I don't test all the time, as again, I know what is good and what isn't.
I'm going through a spate of testing, as I want to tweak my cholesterol down a bit, and I'm changing to different foods that are supposed to be good for the numbers.
If I use fat, it's rice bran, or olive oil, but not much.

I find alcohol brings on the munchies as well, so try not to drink too much.

 

[Scandichic]

Yes, I feel hungry.
If it's because I'm hungry, I'll eat.
A lot of the time it was habit, or boredom, so now I don't respond to it, but get up and do something else.

Breakfast this morning was dry fried mushrooms on a slice of livlife bread.
I'm feeling nibbly now, and as the rest of the house are grilling bacon, I'm going to have a slice on another couple of pieces of bread.
Then going out, so that'll last until the evening.

Usually breakfast is a couple of ryvita though, and a slice of low fat cheese, and a slice of ham between them.
I expect that to last until about 11ish, then I'll have a yoghurt, or fruit.
Lunch at 1 ish is a salad, with fish or similar.
Evening meal can be anything, Low GI, fish, quorn, lean meat, a lot of veg, usually a lot of spice.
Beans are mostly ok, some lentils, but not all, chickpeas, basmati rive, quinoa, I'm ok with.
Snacks can be low fat cheese, oat biscuits, a few olives, fruit, usually mid afternoon, and later evening.

I don't particularly work the calories out per meal now, I used to, and know what I can put together now.
I don't test all the time, as again, I know what is good and what isn't.
I'm going through a spate of testing, as I want to tweak my cholesterol down a bit, and I'm changing to different foods that are supposed to be good for the numbers.
If I use fat, it's rice bran, or olive oil, but not much.

Our evening meals are similar but I have found that I need a more substantial breakfast so 2 poached eggs and 2 rashers of bacon keep me going then just yoghurt and small handful of berries keeps me going. By 3-5 I will have a piece of cheese as husband doesn't get in till 7. On mon and we'd the kids have evening clubs so we eat around 8 which is too late but want kids to be able to do clubs. Found a recipe with cod, small amount of chorizo, cabbage and cannellini beans and pasata - would you like it?

 

[douglas99]

I never ate breakfast, it's all I could manage to eat that at breakfast.
And I'd like the recipe, if you can post it up thanks.
(and a few years ago, cabbage would never have seen my plate! Things change......)

 

[Weens12]

Yes, I feel hungry.
If it's because I'm hungry, I'll eat.
A lot of the time it was habit, or boredom, so now I don't respond to it, but get up and do something else.
I expect not to be completely stuffed after meals, I eat little and often, and keep the GI/GL down.
<SNIP>
I don't particularly work the calories out per meal now, I used to, and know what I can put together now.
I don't test all the time, as again, I know what is good and what isn't.
I'm going through a spate of testing, as I want to tweak my cholesterol down a bit, and I'm changing to different foods that are supposed to be good for the numbers.
If I use fat, it's rice bran, or olive oil, but not much.

I find alcohol brings on the munchies as well, so try not to drink too much.

Douglas,

What you have written above pretty much agrees with my approach......Although you couldn't get me to eat Ryvita for all the tea in China! Livlife bread though is great. I would agree that taking account of the overall calories is necessary.

I too use rice bran and olive oil, and occasionally small amounts of butter. I eat a small handful of nuts (almonds usually) or a little fruit if I'm genuinely hungry between or after meals. I used to eat sometimes out of habit and boredom, so I had to "train" myself to exercise more restraint, and figure out when I was genuinely hungry rather than thirsty or just bored. It's easy to be influenced by what those around you are eating too.

A lot of the fat in my diet comes from oily fish which I love, and nuts. I too am trying to tweak my diet to get my cholesterol down a bit - something which is a bit of an uphill battle complicated by having an underactive thyroid which can elevate cholesterol levels. Although my total cholesterol is 6, the mix is good, (my trigs are fab!) and my GP is satisfied as it is. Are you having any success with getting yours down? - if so, please share

As you said in your earlier post, everyone has a different view of what low-carb means, and as your signature says... We can only say what works for us. As diabetics we have to restrict carbohydrates to some extent, and each of us has to find our own level. Further, the diet you might choose to lose weight might not be the same diet that you can ultimately sustain for the longer term, and as I've found - that's the tricky bit.

I don't have an issue with LCHF per se, but in the light of this study, would urge caution with high levels of saturated fat - as Scandichic says - everything in moderation....

However, this study, small though it may be, seem to me to confirm my suspicions that saturated fat may not be as benign as it appears at first sight.

 

[phoenix]

Douglas as you point out, everybody does it differently (whatever the diet)

Several years ago a previous member who is dietitian, analysed peoples diets. If I remember rightly (jt's long ago been deleted) many of those who identified themselves as low carbers actually had much lower levels of fat than the RDA for fat because they had low calorie intakes.

The RDA for fat is 70g for women and 90g for men http://www.npt.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=3360

Since then the emphasis both on here and on low carb blogs etc has been more on fat (as you say things like bullet proof coffee come to mind)
Eighteen months ago, there was a share your diet thread in which mostly people who identified themselves as low carbers but also some others including me wrote out a days diet .
XYYZZ did a lot of doughnut chart's based on the daily intake. This showed the percentage of each macronutrient in the diet. Most people who identified themselves as low carbers seemed to be eating 60% plus of their calories from fat

I haven't looked to see if people in general ate more or less than the RDA,
On that day with salmon for dinner I managed 37% of cals from fat and 41% from carbohydrate.(where does that put me? depends who you ask!). I had a higher percentage of fat than is supposed to be desirable but still ate less than the GDA at 58.6g because my total calorie was also lower than the 2000 cal GDA for the average woman.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/share-your-diet.30311/

 

[zand]

OK, so if saturated fat causes fatty liver, how come my liver count which measures this (sorry can't remember the proper name) has gone down from around 150 to 40? When it was 150 I ate low-fat spreads and vegetable oils, now I am back to using butter and lard and full cream milk. Who funded the Swedish study? The makers of a low-fat spread perhaps?.

 

[Mrs Vimes]

I thought saturated fats were transported to fat tissues and the excess glucose from carbs was what ended up I the liver to give fatty liver?


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[Weens12]

OK, so if saturated fat causes fatty liver, how come my liver count which measures this (sorry can't remember the proper name) has gone down from around 150 to 40? When it was 150 I ate low-fat spreads and vegetable oils, now I am back to using butter and lard and full cream milk. Who funded the Swedish study? The makers of a low-fat spread perhaps?.

The study was conducted at Uppsala University Hospital and Uppsala University in collaboration with the Karolinska Institutet. It was funded by the Swedish Research Council and the Swedish Society of Medicine undertaken within the framework of EXODIAB – Excellence of Diabetes Research in Sweden. -

See more at: http://www.uu.se/en/media/press-release-document/?id=2240&area=3&typ=pm&na=#sthash.HJGzWjgo.dpuf

 

[Bluetit1802]

OK, so if saturated fat causes fatty liver, how come my liver count which measures this (sorry can't remember the proper name) has gone down from around 150 to 40? When it was 150 I ate low-fat spreads and vegetable oils, now I am back to using butter and lard and full cream milk. Who funded the Swedish study? The makers of a low-fat spread perhaps?.

My understanding is that the research shows that rather than saturated fat causing Fatty Liver Disease, polyunsaturated fat may help prevent it. Fatty Liver Disease is caused by drinking too much alcohol, or diabetes and/or high cholesterol. The general guidance for treatment is to lose weight and exercise more.

 

[phoenix]

You might like to read this bloggers account of the study.
"Saturated Fat Makes You Fat! You Read the Press Release - Here is the Whole Story: A Story of Muffins, SFA, MUFA, PUFA, Body, Liver & Visceral Fat and N6s & Lean Mass"
http://suppversity.blogspot.fr/2014/02/saturated-fat-makes-you-fat-you-read.html
He's a blogger but I think, one of those who seems to have a relatively balanced view of things and indeed his conclusion is balanced

"Whut?" Calm down, I am not suggesting that you have to go back to the "saturated fat is bad for you" mantra, but I would like to invite you to take a parting look at Figure 2 (right) and note that the main characteristic of the "PUFA" diet is not its high PUFA content, but it's balanced fat content. Maybe the sentence "The optimal diet is characterized by a balanced intake of all three main types of dietary fat" would thus be a conclusion we can agree on - ha?

 

[zand]

My understanding is that the research shows that rather than saturated fat causing Fatty Liver Disease, polyunsaturated fat may help prevent it. Fatty Liver Disease is caused by drinking too much alcohol, or diabetes and/or high cholesterol. The general guidance for treatment is to lose weight and exercise more.

I don't drink, my cholesterol is fine and now that I am diabetic my fatty liver is much improved. I am sure that in my case (and I may simply be an anomaly) it was caused by carbs and diet drinks.

 

[zand]

The study was conducted at Uppsala University Hospital and Uppsala University in collaboration with the Karolinska Institutet. It was funded by the Swedish Research Council and the Swedish Society of Medicine undertaken within the framework of EXODIAB – Excellence of Diabetes Research in Sweden. -

See more at: http://www.uu.se/en/media/press-release-document/?id=2240&area=3&typ=pm&na=#sthash.HJGzWjgo.dpuf

Thanks

 

[Scandichic]

I never ate breakfast, it's all I could manage to eat that at breakfast.
And I'd like the recipe, if you can post it up thanks.
(and a few years ago, cabbage would never have seen my plate! Things change......)

Cod and bean stew

Ingredients

1 tbsp olive oil
1 onion, chopped
small rosemary sprig, leaves finely chopped
25g chorizo or other spicy sausage, chopped
2 fat garlic cloves, crushed
700g bottle passata
410g can cannellini beans in water, drained
200g shredded green cabbage
4 skinless chunky fillets haddock or cod

Method

Heat the oil in a large frying pan, then soften the onion for 5 mins. Add the rosemary, chorizo and garlic, then fry for 2 mins more until the chorizo is starting to crisp. Tip in the passata, beans, cabbage and sugar, season, then simmer for 5 mins.
Add the fish to the pan, leaving the tops of the fillets peeking out of the sauce, then cover with a lid and leave to cook for 5-8 mins or until the flesh flakes easily.
Cheat: use garlic butter and dried rosemary instead of fresh rosemary and garlic cloves.

 

[Scandichic]

Thanks

Don't these guys still recommend low GI and portion control just like the NHS?

 

[Weens12]

My understanding is that the research shows that rather than saturated fat causing Fatty Liver Disease, polyunsaturated fat may help prevent it. Fatty Liver Disease is caused by drinking too much alcohol, or diabetes and/or high cholesterol. The general guidance for treatment is to lose weight and exercise more.

My understanding of the research is different to yours...and has nothing to do with FLD but everything to do with metabolic disorders including diabetes. I can't find anything in the study which suggest that saturated fat causes FLD or that polyunsaturated fat may help prevent it.

This study was conducted to show that the fat composition of food not only influences cholesterol levels in the blood and the risk of cardiovascular disease but also determines where the fat will be stored in the body.

As I'm sure you know, high levels of abdominal fat, particularly visceral and liver fat, is of some significance for those with diabetes or who are at risk of diabetes or metabolic disorders.

The subjects in the study were overeating in order to put on weight. Some were overeating saturated fat, the others were overeating polyunsaturated fat. The goal was for all of them to gain 3% of their starting weight. Both diets contained the same amount of sugar, carbohydrates, fat, and protein; the only difference was the type of fat. The increase in body fat and the distribution of fat in the body was measured using MRI scans before and after the weight gain, as was the muscle mass in the body.

Despite comparable weight gains between the two diet groups, the surplus consumption of saturated fat caused a markedly greater increase in the amount of fat in the liver and abdomen (especially the fat surrounding the internal organs, visceral fat) in comparison with the surplus consumption of polyunsaturated fat. Moreover the total amount of body fat was greater in the saturated fat group, while, on the other hand, the increase in muscle mass was three times less for those who ate saturated fat compared with those who ate polyunsaturated fat. Thus, gaining weight on excess calories from polyunsaturated fat caused more gain in muscle mass, and less body fat than overeating a similar amount of saturated fat.

So my interpretation of the study is:
Gaining weight on a diet high in saturated fat, may increase your abdominal fat more than if you gained an equivalent amount of weight on a diet high in polyunsatured fat. Therefore, the findings of this study may be of interest to diabetics on a LCHF diet, which includes significant amounts of saturated fat so that they can be aware what may happen if they gain weight.

 

[Weens12]

Don't these guys still recommend low GI and portion control just like the NHS?

Which guys?