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LCHF, roughage, muesli, exercise, Catch22...

LittleGreyCat

LittleGreyCat

Well-Known Member
Retired Moderator
Messages
4,386
Location
Suffolk, UK
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Diet drinks - the artificial sweeteners taste vile.
Having to forswear foods I have loved all my life.
Trying to find low carb meals when eating out.
I find the best way to keep my BG down and get my weight down is some variant of LCHF.

So protein rich meals are good - eggs and bacon and tomatoes for breakfast, chicken for tea.

However I am finding that I am not getting enough bulk and roughage even though I eat a reasonable amount of vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage.

Now if I want to keep myself regular (well, not TOO regular; once every five minutes and white and shaking is not a good idea) I find a mixture of home made muesli and bran (I was using All Bran but there is way too much sugar in it) generally does the trick.

However two hours after a rough cereal breakfast my BG can be in the high 9s which is not ideal.

Which is where the Catch22 comes in - high BG if I eat the cereals, bungo if I don't!

Enter the cunning plan :-)

I've just started cycling again and after about 90 minutes of aerobic exercise my BG is nicely down in the 4s.
So if I eat my dangerous breakfast then set off cycling half an hour later, perhaps this will kill two birds with one stone.
First test today and 2 hours after eating (and after 90 minutes cycling) my BG was an acceptable 6.0.
Noted that I had a protein breakfast then the cereal at lunch time just before my ride - which seemed kinda weird but meals are just meals so no big deal.
I was generally less knackered after the ride as well, but then this is to be expected on the first few rides - rapid initial improvement followed by a long hard slog.

So this is my plan, which could have interesting variations: just before a cycle ride eat "bad stuff" then burn it off.
The bulk roughage is a practical version.
However if I get my fitness up so that I can burn more calories off during the ride then I might be in for a few pre-ride treats like the carrot cake which was my downfall on our recent holiday.
Jut like any other cyclist :-)

Cheers

LGC
 
I have a little 100% coconut water....it works for me every time....might not be for everyone though .....but does help to keep me regular :)

Your carrot cake sounds really nice x
 
I like the cunning plan!

We have a kettle bell acting as a doorstop, in the living room.

We also have a box of chocolates acting as a temptation, beside my chair.

How many 'kettle bell swings' do you think would sort out a Thorntons chocolate?
 
Currently I use rhubarb to help keep me regular, over the winter I used flaxseed, either in homemade low carb bread or ground on my greek yog.
 
This is enlightening. Thank you

I'd believed Metformin had the opposite effect, but I'm on Metformin SR and have never had problems, although have been visibly bloated lately and ummm ...not as regular.

Not sure I'm prepared to trade off museli for 90 mins of aerboic exercise though!
 
I found that I was a bit bunged up to start with (apart from a couple or so desperate rushes to the loo to unburden when I was getting used to the metformin:eek:). I read that psyllium was good to keep you going and tried some but absolutely hated it and it didn't seem to help, but I've found that a combination of plenty of (fibrous) veggies, flaxseed and almond flour bread/cakes/muffins (and a little time) have now got me more or less back to my previous routine. So maybe a little patience might help too as your body gets used to its new diet?

Robbity
 
Cunning plan looking not quite so cunning today - I substituted All Bran for natural bran powder and after 90 minutes very aerobic exercise my reading was 7.7.

Still, 7.7 is not that bad in the great scheme of things.
I need to check again in an hour or so to see if the reading has gone up again.

To note that the cycling is not to allow me to eat roughage - the cycling is to get me fit and try and reduce any insulin resistance in my muscles, and even get some weight off.
The roughage before the ride (does that make me a rough{age} rider?) is just an experiment to see if I can gain additional benefits from the exercise.
If I really get into the cycling I assume I should be taking on some carbs before or during exercise to prevent 'bonking' or complete loss of energy during the ride.
All an excuse to have a sliced Mars Bar and eat a bit every 15 minutes or so :-)
Noted again that slow release carbs like malt loaf are a far better option, and man cannot cycle by Mars Bars alone.

Cheers

LGC
 
LittleGreyCat said:
If I really get into the cycling I assume I should be taking on some carbs before or during exercise to prevent 'bonking' or complete loss of energy during the ride.
Click to expand...

Not unless your cycling for more than two hours, or working at really high-intensity (although it's probably a good idea to have some on you).

You should watch the last five minutes of this video (by the fantastic Prof Roy Taylor) where he describes what happens to diabetics that go cycling:
http://www.fend-lectures.org/index.php?menu=view&id=94
 
LittleGreyCat said:
I find the best way to keep my BG down and get my weight down is some variant of LCHF.

So protein rich meals are good - eggs and bacon and tomatoes for breakfast, chicken for tea.

However I am finding that I am not getting enough bulk and roughage even though I eat a reasonable amount of vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage.

Now if I want to keep myself regular (well, not TOO regular; once every five minutes and white and shaking is not a good idea) I find a mixture of home made muesli and bran (I was using All Bran but there is way too much sugar in it) generally does the trick.

However two hours after a rough cereal breakfast my BG can be in the high 9s which is not ideal.

Which is where the Catch22 comes in - high BG if I eat the cereals, bungo if I don't!

Enter the cunning plan :-)

I've just started cycling again and after about 90 minutes of aerobic exercise my BG is nicely down in the 4s.
So if I eat my dangerous breakfast then set off cycling half an hour later, perhaps this will kill two birds with one stone.
First test today and 2 hours after eating (and after 90 minutes cycling) my BG was an acceptable 6.0.
Noted that I had a protein breakfast then the cereal at lunch time just before my ride - which seemed kinda weird but meals are just meals so no big deal.
I was generally less knackered after the ride as well, but then this is to be expected on the first few rides - rapid initial improvement followed by a long hard slog.

So this is my plan, which could have interesting variations: just before a cycle ride eat "bad stuff" then burn it off.
The bulk roughage is a practical version.
However if I get my fitness up so that I can burn more calories off during the ride then I might be in for a few pre-ride treats like the carrot cake which was my downfall on our recent holiday.
Jut like any other cyclist :-)

Cheers

LGC
Click to expand...

Two food items that I eat regularly is avocados and chia seeds. I mix them with eggs or chia seeds in water ( freeze in almond milk for an ice cream after they have swollen up )

Avocados
100 g
160 calories
9 carbs
7 fiber

Chia seeds
100 g
485 calories
42 carbs
34 fiber

Of course you won't be eating 100g ( Avocados easily (-; )



Sent from Runner2009 Burt
 
borofergie said:
Not unless your cycling for more than two hours, or working at really high-intensity (although it's probably a good idea to have some on you).

You should watch the last five minutes of this video (by the fantastic Prof Roy Taylor) where he describes what happens to diabetics that go cycling:
http://www.fend-lectures.org/index.php?menu=view&id=94
Click to expand...

Some interesting stuff. I watched the end but I didn't see anything about T2s who went cycling.

I did see an analogy between excess calorie intake, liver fats, and insulin resistance and the wheels and handlebars on a bicycle.

The premise seems to be that is you get rid of excess calorie intake and excess fat you can reverse T2 Diabetes.

I am pretty sure that there are a few T2s on this forum who are not fat and don't eat excess calories but who are still genuine T2 diabetics.

So while I accept that people who are very overweight can sometimes if they are lucky reverse T2 diabetes by major weight loss, I am not so sure that T2s of normal weight and waist measurement have the same option for reversal.

I currently weigh 12 stone 11 pounds and on my tall days I am six foot and half an inch tall.

So I am not overweight by the usual standards, but I am certainly diabetic.
I aim to reduce my weight by another half stone by sensible eating combined with exercise - such as eating before a ride and not laying into the pies afterwards as a reward.
I hope this will help improve my BG control but I have no anticipation that this will cure me.
By 'cure' I mean hitting the non-diabetic targets in a fasting glucose test.

Oh, and on the 'bonking' front, I as I said I am already cycling for 90 minutes at a reasonable intensity as my initial ramp up to fitness, so I anticipate going well over the two hours once I get more into the swing.

Hopefully I will be up to club runs of 50+ miles at the weekend after a month or so - my current target is to be able to keep up with CTC weekend club runs for mixed abilities.

Cheers

LGC
 
You're right. I forgot, he was talking about a group of T2Ds that trained up do a half-marathon, but managed to lose zero weight in the process. Basically because they came home from a run and used it as an excuse to "carb load". But then it seems that you don't need to lose weight, so that's irrelevant (sorry for the bum steer - but it is a great video anyway).

Back to the original point: it depends on your heart rate.

During aerobic exercise, you burn a mixture of fat and glucose. The lower the intensity the more fat and the less glucose you burn. At low intensities you can get away with not taking on too much carbohydrate, because you aren't burning much. This is what ultra runners often do, run at a really slow pace (compared to marathon runner) so that they don't use up all there glycogen and "hit the wall" (which is just another word for bonking or hypoglycemia).

However, no matter how slowly you run or cycle you'll eventually use up your glycogen supplies, that happens at about 20 miles in the marathon, unless you take some carbs on board (unless you are in deep ketosis).

If you work too hard, you'll eventually reach your aerobic threshold, beyond which your muscles will stop burning fat and start burning only glucose (this is anaerobic exercise). It's difficult to run for any extended period anaerobically (because of the build up of lactic acid in your muscles), even the best athletes can manage it for 30 mins or less. Any time spent over or near your aerobic threshold will burn through your muscle glycogen very quickly.
 
So it depends on what you want to do achieve:
  1. If you want to burn off some naughty carbs, then short bursts of high intensity exercise are better (sprinting for more than 10s or intervals).
  2. If you want to enjoy some endurance exercise (like your cycling club rides) you need to exercise at lower intensity.
I'm training to run a marathon zero-carb. For the first couple of months, all of my runs are at 60 to 80% of my maximum heart rate, because I want to train my body to burn fat instead of glucose. If I go anywhere near 80% then I slow right down, so that I don't stray too far into the glycogen burning zone. That is apparently the same tactic that Wiggins and Froome used to win the last two Tour de Frances.

The main point is this: if you are exercising, then you can afford to take on some extra carbohydrate. It would be foolish to exercise too hard or too long without access to some carbohydrate (I carry some emergency gels). But don't get involved in the "sports nutrition" or "carbo-loading" game, most of which is ******** unless you are tackling a marathon or 100 mile bike ride.
 
Between the fibre I get from non starchy veggies and lower carb fruit - plus having plenty of fat, I've never had an issue with needing additional fibre or "roughage" on LCHF.

Given the years of IBS I had from eating a diet high in insoluble/fermentable fibres, I'm quite happy with the digestive peace that LCHF has given me. I tend to believe that Dr Briffa is right on the subject of added fibre:

http://www.drbriffa.com/2013/03/05/...re-for-constipation-and-other-bowel-symptoms/

Magnesium and MCT oil are also great for "regularity".
 
borofergie said:
So it depends on what you want to do achieve:
  1. If you want to burn off some naughty carbs, then short bursts of high intensity exercise are better (sprinting for more than 10s or intervals).
  2. If you want to enjoy some endurance exercise (like your cycling club rides) you need to exercise at lower intensity.
I'm training to run a marathon zero-carb. For the first couple of months, all of my runs are at 60 to 80% of my maximum heart rate, because I want to train my body to burn fat instead of glucose. If I go anywhere near 80% then I slow right down, so that I don't stray too far into the glycogen burning zone. That is apparently the same tactic that Wiggins and Froome used to win the last two Tour de Frances.

The main point is this: if you are exercising, then you can afford to take on some extra carbohydrate. It would be foolish to exercise too hard or too long without access to some carbohydrate (I carry some emergency gels). But don't get involved in the "sports nutrition" or "carbo-loading" game, most of which is ******** unless you are tackling a marathon or 100 mile bike ride.
Click to expand...

I've run a lot of marathons and long distance runs in my pre-diabetic life. Of course we were not world class runners, but i agree that "sports nutrition and carbo-loading" is of no use for the majority of us. I found ( and use it still today ) the best training methods that produced the overall best results with a minimum of injury is LSD - Long Slow Distance.

The minimum distance for these slow runs was 8.5 miles to 13 miles with the max at about 20 or more. The key was a minimum of 45 miles a week. If we were trying for a PR we would do some speed work, but very careful not to get injuried.

Even in those days the key was to stay hydrated and eat along the way. If we were in the best shape hydration was the only requirement.

I have not run a marathon since being a diabetic - I did lose a lot of muscle before I knew what was happening - but I've found that the better shape I am in the more stable my BS is during my runs and trail runs ( which put way more stress on my heart rate because of the hills and having to use my thigh muscles going up the trails.

Dr. Bernstein wrote that he believes pushing your heart rate above its theoretical maximum for over 30-minutes is the key in preventing heart disease - he uses a recombent bike - he wrote further that with his patients depending on their condition he will slowly have them raise their heart rate as low as one beat a month until they are over he theoretical maximum rate for their age.



Sent from Runner2009 Burt
 
runner2009 said:
I've run a lot of marathons and long distance runs in my pre-diabetic life. Of course we were not world class runners, but i agree that "sports nutrition and carbo-loading" is of no use for the majority of us. I found ( and use it still today ) the best training methods that produced the overall best results with a minimum of injury is LSD - Long Slow Distance.
Click to expand...

Yes! I'm not in your league @runner2009 , but I'm all about the Lydiard training - lots of long slow miles to build and aerobic base.

For the first couple of years I used to beat myself up, because of the slow pace of my training runs (compared to what I could do in races), so it comes as a bit of a relief that running slowly is actually the best method. The truth of it is, that is is very difficult to run your LSRs too slowly, almost everyone runs them too fast.
 
borofergie said:
Yes! I'm not in your league @runner2009 , but I'm all about the Lydiard training - lots of long slow miles to build and aerobic base.

For the first couple of years I used to beat myself up, because of the slow pace of my training runs (compared to what I could do in races), so it comes as a bit of a relief that running slowly is actually the best method. The truth of it is, that is is very difficult to run your LSRs too slowly, almost everyone runs them too fast.
Click to expand...

You are so right about running too fast.

I remember my best running mate and I really put the slow miles in and never did any speed work.

I was getting worried that perhaps we were taking it too far the LSD.

Then these two other guys came speeding up on us and we both heard one guy say 'let's blow by these grandmas' my friend and I looked at each other and hit our afterburners and smoked those two guys. I was amazed and never wavered from that training method since.

Do you ever use a heart monitor? I'm amazed at how high your rate can get on a long slow run

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App
 
Hmmm....must dig out the heart rate monitor.
Plus the instructions!

My cycling tends to keep me just below the 'hurt' level apart from the small hills on the route where temporary hurt is the only way to get to the top.
Legs complaining slightly, breathing elevated but not any desperate moaning!

The aim is distance above speed.

However I tend to ride at an average of around 14 mph /21 kph at the moment which is faster than my long term endurance speed of about 11 mph (having done the London to Brighton many years ago I discovered that after any initial bursts of enthusiasm I could settle down to 11 mph for hours at a time).

All fascinating information - I would like to run but the last couple of times I have done bad things to my legs and feet so cycling is my exercise of choice at the moment.

Cheers

LGC
 
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