Lying to employer about medical history

[Cae101]

Hey folks

Ive been a long time lurker on these forums and they have always been a good source of info for me. However I have finally made an account to ask a question. Where do I stand legally if I not only do not disclose my T1 diabetes but lie about it when asked during a job recruitment process.

I normally dont disclose my diabetes to the normal "Do you have a disability/require any special changes etc" question however a couple of weeks ago during an interview I recieved a tick sheet specificly asking; "Do you have diabetes/epilepsy/numerous other things". This was well I was applying for a position as a delivery driver for a big UK supermarket (Begins with T ends in CSO's. In the past I have just ticked no to all boxes and wrote "DVLA aware 3 year restriction/1 year C1" in the other notes section of my job applications and it has never caused me any issue, however this time I very stupidly decided to tick the box. Low and behold 14 days later (today) I get the call back, "Sorry due to insurance reasons we cannot employ drivers with these disabilities as they are considered a high risk blah blah blah". So needless to say I wont be disclosing again when applying to a large company.

Im just wondering where this leaves me legally? I know that under normal circumstances if you do not disclose when asked if you have a disability you are in the clear however you are not protected by the disabilities act if an aspect of your health affects your work. Is it still the same situation if they have specificly asked you if you have a certain condition and you say no? Also if this does leave me in a sketchy situation legally how exactly will my employer find out? Finally if they do find out what is the worse they can do? Immediate dismissal?

Cae

 

[AndBreathe]

Hey folks

Ive been a long time lurker on these forums and they have always been a good source of info for me. However I have finally made an account to ask a question. Where do I stand legally if I not only do not disclose my T1 diabetes but lie about it when asked during a job recruitment process.

I normally dont disclose my diabetes to the normal "Do you have a disability/require any special changes etc" question however a couple of weeks ago during an interview I recieved a tick sheet specificly asking; "Do you have diabetes/epilepsy/numerous other things". This was well I was applying for a position as a delivery driver for a big UK supermarket (Begins with T ends in CSO's. In the past I have just ticked no to all boxes and wrote "DVLA aware 3 year restriction/1 year C1" in the other notes section of my job applications and it has never caused me any issue, however this time I very stupidly decided to tick the box. Low and behold 14 days later (today) I get the call back, "Sorry due to insurance reasons we cannot employ drivers with these disabilities as they are considered a high risk blah blah blah". So needless to say I wont be disclosing again when applying to a large company.

Im just wondering where this leaves me legally? I know that under normal circumstances if you do not disclose when asked if you have a disability you are in the clear however you are not protected by the disabilities act if an aspect of your health affects your work. Is it still the same situation if they have specificly asked you if you have a certain condition and you say no? Also if this does leave me in a sketchy situation legally how exactly will my employer find out? Finally if they do find out what is the worse they can do? Immediate dismissal?

Cae

I'm not a lawyer, but I think what you have done is very foolhardy, if you do this and are offered such a job, you could find you are not covered by your employer's insurance - both driving and generally. I'd say you would almost certainly not be covered by their insurance,

I can't imagine the potential if you were to have an accident where another person was hurt, as that would probably put your employer into the hot seat, and if it costs them, they would have the option to pursue you, in order to recover their costs.

if the foregoing is true about their insurers, they could be forced down the disciplinary route for your non-disclosure and knowingly creating the situation.

I can't express what a bad idea your strategy has been.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

What is the worst that can happen?

You cause a crash that injures or kills someone. Then you would have to live with the guilt of that, and any injuries you had yourself, and harassment from their family, and intense media coverage, you would get fired, and prosecuted* for: document fraud and dangerous driving causing injury or death, (probably imprisoned for that), you would lose your licence for a long period and struggle to get it back, you would have a criminal record and the document fraud conviction would probably stop you getting most jobs for the rest of your life. You would also be sued for the cost of the damage to the expensive commercial vehicle you drove, any other vehicles or property like fences and buildings that got damaged. In NZ you couldn't be sued for ongoing medical costs but that might apply in the UK, I don't know.

All in all a disaster that could have been easily avoided.

Even if you don't have a crash you are risking prosecution for document fraud, plus your health if you have a hypo and no one knows what to do. It's hard to hide T1 diabetes from an employer, and even if you do nothing else wrong you would be fired and could be prosecuted/sued.

Good employers don't discriminate against T1 diabetics. There are plenty of jobs people can do besides driving.

*I realise UK law differs from NZ law but my hunch is that most of it is very similar, since our law is based on UK law and our cultures are similar.

 

[Cae101]

Sorry guys I may have phrased something badly. None of my previous employers have specificly asked if I was Diabetic during the application process. They have always asked "Do I consider myself to have a disability" which I always answer no too as
A. I genuinely dont see well managed diabetes as a "disability" although that I suppose is a matter of opinion
B. Most employers have asked me to ensure that there insurers are alerted to my details seperate to my employment application i.e first week of the job I need to fill in a form and send it off to XY underwriters, I am ALWAYS honest on this form just as I am with my personal car insurance as they cannot legally charge more nowadays and there are specific laws against missinforming on car insurance (RTA S145).

If an employer is negligant enough to only use the information given on a job interview checksheet to there vehicle insurer then they are going to have problems regardless of what I put on it as the declaration I signed did not specificly state that the form would be used in accordance with the Road Traffic Act 1988 section 145 and the information would be used on there insurance policy. To be honest I would much prefer to have the issue raised once they have already offered me employment which is why I dont usually say on my applications. (Also normally insurance companies dont even specificly asked what condition you are afflictied with, Only that the DVLA are aware and have given restriction).

I was asking purely from an employment law perspective. If I where to tick no on an application box and they where to find out after I was employed what would happen, would they be able to fire me on the spot for providing false information even though I have a right to my medical confidentiality under the Human Rights Act.

 

[noblehead]

@Cae101, in fairness you could answer No to the disability question but most job applications do go on to ask if you have any other health conditions that may effect your ability to work, in this question it would only be right that you declare that you have type 1 diabetes.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Sorry guys I may have phrased something badly. None of my previous employers have specificly asked if I was Diabetic during the application process. They have always asked "Do I consider myself to have a disability" which I always answer no too as
A. I genuinely dont see well managed diabetes as a "disability" although that I suppose is a matter of opinion
B. Most employers have asked me to ensure that there insurers are alerted to my details seperate to my employment application i.e first week of the job I need to fill in a form and send it off to XY underwriters, I am ALWAYS honest on this form just as I am with my personal car insurance as they cannot legally charge more nowadays and there are specific laws against missinforming on car insurance (RTA S145).

If an employer is negligant enough to only use the information given on a job interview checksheet to there vehicle insurer then they are going to have problems regardless of what I put on it as the declaration I signed did not specificly state that the form would be used in accordance with the Road Traffic Act 1988 section 145 and the information would be used on there insurance policy. To be honest I would much prefer to have the issue raised once they have already offered me employment which is why I dont usually say on my applications. (Also normally insurance companies dont even specificly asked what condition you are afflictied with, Only that the DVLA are aware and have given restriction).

I was asking purely from an employment law perspective. If I where to tick no on an application box and they where to find out after I was employed what would happen, would they be able to fire me on the spot for providing false information even though I have a right to my medical confidentiality under the Human Rights Act.

Our right to medical confidentiality only goes so far. Usually the disability questions are worded so openly that it is hard to argue in court that you don't have a disability affecting the tasks of the job. There is all sorts of common law and precedent that you would be up against if you tried to hide T1 from an employer, especially for a driving job.

It doesn't matter if you don't think T1 is a disability because any good lawyer can argue successfully that it is. Employers have a right to honest disclosure on forms and courts are very good at enforcing this.

Insurers are notorious for finding ways to avoid paying out on a claim. I wouldn't like to be in a position of paying a lawyer to argue against their lawyers.

And there are more issues to consider here than just employment law.

 

[Cae101]

@Cae101, in fairness you could answer No to the disability question but most job applications do go on to ask if you have any other health conditions that may effect your ability to work, in this question it would only be right that you declare that you have type 1 diabetes.

Well my point is that bar the 3 months I took off after diagnosis (I was rather dramaticly diagnosed, collapsed after 2 months of what I now know was ketoacidosis had to spend a week in ICU & got chucked out the army etc etc) and subsequent 6 months I took of not driving until I was in control of my condition I have not once taken a unscheduled day off or unplanned break due to my diabetes in the 4 years since I was diagnosed. I just havnt seen the need. Under EU work time legislation everyone has the right too 15minutes of break for every 4 hours work and bar 1 or 2 occasions where Ive had to down a can of red bull mid shift this is all I feel I need to manage my condition. Until I go blind or one of my limbs come off I doubt that situation will change.

In fact in my work I have found I am far more able bodied than my older or overweight colleagues (I dont mean this in a boastful manner please dont take it as such) yet they arnt being requested to give up there rights to there own medical privacy which is something that I take pride in that I am in a country that allows such rights.

So with that in mind why would it be "right" for me to give up my rights and open myself to discrimination (legal or not) just to get some low paying part time job.

 

[tim2000s]

The disability question comes up over and over and much as we may not like it and do not consider ourselves to be disabled, under the equality act, diabetes has the status of a disability in cases of discrimination. How this applies in answering the question on a job application I don't know.

With regard to the "Do You have diabetes?" question. Answering this untruthfully is likely to have you dismissed immediately and will affect you ability to get another job as when asked why you left that role so quickly and for the references for it, you will be open to discovery...

 

[Cae101]

Our right to medical confidentiality only goes so far. Usually the disability questions are worded so openly that it is hard to argue in court that you don't have a disability affecting the tasks of the job. There is all sorts of common law and precedent that you would be up against if you tried to hide T1 from an employer, especially for a driving job.

It doesn't matter if you don't think T1 is a disability because any good lawyer can argue successfully that it is. Employers have a right to honest disclosure on forms and courts are very good at enforcing this.

Insurers are notorious for finding ways to avoid paying out on a claim. I wouldn't like to be in a position of paying a lawyer to argue against their lawyers.

And there are more issues to consider here than just employment law.

For the reasons I explained I do not believe it was road traffic insurance that the recruiter was refering too. I believe it was there workplace insurance (i.e If I took a hypo and passed out well loading boxxes into a van unsupervised or whilst off the premesis stationary at the side of the road they wouldnt be able to pay me out). Either that or there van insurance is not complaint with the Disability Discrimination Act 2005 which I strongly believe wouldnt be the case.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

being requested to give up there rights to there own medical privacy which is something that I take pride in that I am in a country that allows such rights.

So with that in mind why would it be "right" for me to give up my rights and open myself to discrimination (legal or not) just to get some low paying part time job.

I too am glad to live in a country that allows privacy rights and a host of other rights that make life as pleasant as possible compared to those countries without good human rights (insert tangent about the hideous Saudi Arabia that has just been voted to head a UN HR body... what the actual f***. Sorry, but that really gets my goat).

Rights comes with responsibilities, for both job applicant and prospective employer. Courts are the place where such rights often end up being contested, often with high stakes.

This is a serious suggestion and not in any way a criticism but with your approach to legal rights and your knowledge about them, I think you would be a good candidate for law school instead of van driving. Passionate, smart lawyers are always in demand, the pay can be excellent, and nobody would mind if you were unlucky enough to develop hypo unawareness while on the job.

 

[AndBreathe]

Sorry guys I may have phrased something badly. None of my previous employers have specificly asked if I was Diabetic during the application process. They have always asked "Do I consider myself to have a disability" which I always answer no too as
A. I genuinely dont see well managed diabetes as a "disability" although that I suppose is a matter of opinion
B. Most employers have asked me to ensure that there insurers are alerted to my details seperate to my employment application i.e first week of the job I need to fill in a form and send it off to XY underwriters, I am ALWAYS honest on this form just as I am with my personal car insurance as they cannot legally charge more nowadays and there are specific laws against missinforming on car insurance (RTA S145).

If an employer is negligant enough to only use the information given on a job interview checksheet to there vehicle insurer then they are going to have problems regardless of what I put on it as the declaration I signed did not specificly state that the form would be used in accordance with the Road Traffic Act 1988 section 145 and the information would be used on there insurance policy. To be honest I would much prefer to have the issue raised once they have already offered me employment which is why I dont usually say on my applications. (Also normally insurance companies dont even specificly asked what condition you are afflictied with, Only that the DVLA are aware and have given restriction).

I was asking purely from an employment law perspective. If I where to tick no on an application box and they where to find out after I was employed what would happen, would they be able to fire me on the spot for providing false information even though I have a right to my medical confidentiality under the Human Rights Act.

Bottom line is you have lied, by your own admission on the form, and I am assuming you signed a declaration to say the statements you have made (in this case by virtue of a tick box) are true. You know that isn't the case. That's fraud.

Result = Disciplinary at worst. Police involvement at worst. Probably dismissal.

Your diabetes gives you some additional rights, but they don't extend to willful dishonesty and fraud.

 

[Totto]

Bottom line is you have lied, by your own admission on the form, and I am assuming you signed a declaration to say the statements you have made (in this case by virtue of a tick box) are true. You know that isn't the case. That's fraud.

Result = Disciplinary at worst. Police involvement at worst. Probably dismissal.

Your diabetes gives you some additional rights, but they don't extend to willful dishonesty and fraud.

Keep calm and breathe, @AndBreathe. The thing is he DIDN'T lie. He DID tick the diabetes box. Thus the company turned his application down as they didn't want a driver with diabetes or other disabilities.

 

[AndBreathe]

Keep calm and breathe, @AndBreathe. The thing is he DIDN'T lie. He DID tick the diabetes box. Thus the company turned his application down as they didn't want a driver with diabetes or other disabilities.

My belief is he was painting a picture, suggesting he was contemplating making a false statement on future applications. That was the basis of my response. Of course, it's dangerous to reach conclusion.

Curiously, I attended a meeting on Wednesday where a local Diabetes Consultant was talking about Diabetes and Driving. His view was that diabteics are no more dangerous than the general population, taking into account the potential for "bold decision making", as sometimes exhibited by young drivers, and so on. However, critically, he did confirm that the DVLA do have access to certain medical records (like A&E), which can be cross checked on a new license renewal application. Allegedly, making false statements on these forms can lead to a term of imprisonment.

I know that isn't what the OP is discussing, but it perhaps illustrates how seriously the UK authorities take these matters. Apparently, it is relatively recent that insulin dependent diabetics have been allowed to hold HGV driving licenses. That said, I can't find anything to help me understand the relatively recent statement. Apparently, before this directive HGV drivers from the EU could arrive in UK and drive quite legally, but our own equally qualified folks couldn't, so things have moved forward it seems.

 

[noblehead]

Well my point is that bar the 3 months I took off after diagnosis (I was rather dramaticly diagnosed, collapsed after 2 months of what I now know was ketoacidosis had to spend a week in ICU & got chucked out the army etc etc) and subsequent 6 months I took of not driving until I was in control of my condition I have not once taken a unscheduled day off or unplanned break due to my diabetes in the 4 years since I was diagnosed. I just havnt seen the need. Under EU work time legislation everyone has the right too 15minutes of break for every 4 hours work and bar 1 or 2 occasions where Ive had to down a can of red bull mid shift this is all I feel I need to manage my condition. Until I go blind or one of my limbs come off I doubt that situation will change.

In fact in my work I have found I am far more able bodied than my older or overweight colleagues (I dont mean this in a boastful manner please dont take it as such) yet they arnt being requested to give up there rights to there own medical privacy which is something that I take pride in that I am in a country that allows such rights.

So with that in mind why would it be "right" for me to give up my rights and open myself to discrimination (legal or not) just to get some low paying part time job.

What you did post diagnosis and during your time in work is commendable @Cae101, it's prove that type 1 diabetes doesn't effect our ability to work and lead a normal life.

However the fact remains that every employer has a duty of care towards their employee's and this is why they need people to declare any health issues when applying for a job, a lot of it is down to insurance purposes and H & S but see it isn't all bad as you do have some protection in the work place if you've been open & honest from the onset, for example if at any point you did need extended time away from work due to your diabetes then the Disability Discrimination Act would offer you some protection.

As for your work colleagues, if they had health issues on applying for the job they would be obliged to declare it at the time just like youself who has diabetes, if you do find at any point that you are discriminated against and offered a low pay position then that is something you should take up with your Union, Citizens Advice or a Solicitor.

 

[Totto]

My belief is he was painting a picture, suggesting he was contemplating making a false statement on future applications. That was the basis of my response. Of course, it's dangerous to reach conclusion.

Curiously, I attended a meeting on Wednesday where a local Diabetes Consultant was talking about Diabetes and Driving. His view was that diabteics are no more dangerous than the general population, taking into account the potential for "bold decision making", as sometimes exhibited by young drivers, and so on. However, critically, he did confirm that the DVLA do have access to certain medical records (like A&E), which can be cross checked on a new license renewal application. Allegedly, making false statements on these forms can lead to a term of imprisonment.

I know that isn't what the OP is discussing, but it perhaps illustrates how seriously the UK authorities take these matters. Apparently, it is relatively recent that insulin dependent diabetics have been allowed to hold HGV driving licenses. That said, I can't find anything to help me understand the relatively recent statement. Apparently, before this directive HGV drivers from the EU could arrive in UK and drive quite legally, but our own equally qualified folks couldn't, so things have moved forward it seems.

I'd be rather upset too if I was denied a job just because I have diabetes. Are they really allowed to refuse him on the ground that he is diabetic? If he holds the appropriate driving license?

 

[ButtterflyLady]

I'd be rather upset too if I was denied a job just because I have diabetes. Are they really allowed to refuse him on the ground that he is diabetic? If he holds the appropriate driving license?

There are a lot of job types that a T1 diabetic may not be allowed to do, unfortunately. A good example is the armed forces. They exclude a large number of medical conditions and disabilities. Commercial pilots. Bus drivers. People with hearing or vision loss are excluded from many jobs. I have depression, which rules out anything too stressful.

 

[AndBreathe]

I'd be rather upset too if I was denied a job just because I have diabetes. Are they really allowed to refuse him on the ground that he is diabetic? If he holds the appropriate driving license?

If, for whatever reason, they are not able to secure insurance for him to drive, he cannot drive, as it would be unlawful. I doubt that would be the case for Tesco.

Depending on the duties involved, diabetics can be excluded. Extremes are armed forces, and I think firefighting and the emergency services can be tricky. Whilst it must be an absolute bummer if that's the individual's job, it would be pretty awful for a paramedic to be having a hypo whilst attending a serious RTA or the like. It can't be easy to manage eating patterns in those roles, sometimes.

I'm not completely across the rules and laws, as they, thankfully, haven't impacted me, but honesty is the only way forward with these things.

Anyone trying to secure a job after a dismissal for gross misconduct due to a fraud might find securing further employment a challenge. Any employer might have to question whether they could trust such an individual, with a track record of making knowingly false, signed, legally meaningful disclosures.

Sadly, I would look upon that person as a potentially ticking time bomb, and presented with a similarly qualified candidate with an unblemished record, they'd usually be my bet.

Sadly, that would be quite common, I'd wager.

As you say though, thankfully the OP hasn't put his neck in the noose.

 

[phoenix]

There are a lot of job types that a T1 diabetic may not be allowed to do, unfortunately. A good example is the armed forces. They exclude a large number of medical conditions and disabilities. Commercial pilots. Bus drivers. People with hearing or vision loss are excluded from many jobs. I have depression, which rules out anything too stressful.

The armed forces is an exception (and some countries no longer have such a ban.
. People using insulin can now fly commercial aircraft. There are people with T1 in the UK police, fire and ambulance services https://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_u...-diabetes-allowed-to-fly-commercial-aircraft/
Here is DUK info about employment . It might be worth getting in touch with them and asking their advice. There only some circumstances that an employer is allowed to ask medical questions on the application form or during an interview and personally I wouldn't have thought that this one fits in any of the categories given. https://www.diabetes.org.uk/How_we_...mployment-and-diabetes---Your-rights-at-work/ (see the advocacy pack)
( BUT I'm not a lawyer and I would think that the firm in question has very good lawyers advising them)

 

[ButtterflyLady]

The armed forces is an exception (and some countries no longer have such a ban.
. People using insulin can now fly commercial aircraft. There are people with T1 in the UK police, fire and ambulance services https://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_u...-diabetes-allowed-to-fly-commercial-aircraft/
Here is DUK info about employment . It might be worth getting in touch with them and asking their advice. There only some circumstances that an employer is allowed to ask medical questions on the application form or during an interview and personally I wouldn't have thought that this one fits in any of the categories given. https://www.diabetes.org.uk/How_we_...mployment-and-diabetes---Your-rights-at-work/ (see the advocacy pack)
( BUT I'm not a lawyer and I would think that the firm in question has very good lawyers advising them)

I stand corrected on pilots. However, my overall point was that sometimes a health or disability issue excludes people from jobs, eg hearing or vision loss, and that this is part of life. I'll never be fit enough to become a police officer or calm and clever enough to be an air traffic controller. Good thing there are plenty of other jobs I can do.

 

[Mep]

I think the best thing to do is be honest about your medical history as then you can't be held accountable as such for not disclosing information that could put others at risk. I work in an office and I have disclosed my medical history. Well in fact there is literally nothing my employer doesn't know about my health as it turns out my health got bad and I was put through the HR rehab process which was a lengthy period of time. The outcome of that was that my docs and my work would not agree that I was fit to work full time hours anymore (this isn't because I have diabetes, but because of my overall health which I mention in my signature). So I now work part time and my working hours are reviewed as I'm being paid partial invalidity pension through my superannuation fund here in Australia. In regard to diabetes itself I will let my employer know any time I have a hypo (they requested that I let them know out of duty of care on my part and theirs.....eg. if I need help, they need to know what to do). So I do tend to let them know most of the time (sometimes I don't if I catch the hypo quickly). But I usually find though that my judgment is impaired after a hypo anyhow. My endo explained that your judgment is in fact impaired for at least half an hour with a mild hypo... if it is more severe it can be longer of course. So yeh, it's best to let your employer know. Better safe than sorry.