moderation!

[jopar]

Over the last year there have been several changes to the forum, some for the better but alas some I feel that have been derogatory to the forum and the support we are able to give to others...

Not sure how everybody else feels, but I am for one not happy concerning how the moderation is set up and how moderation seems to be carried out...

I don’t like the idea of having nameless moderators hiding behind mod 1,2 3 etc, nor does it seem fair that individuals are unable to pm moderators, concerning any decision they deem fit to make... Unless they decide to address a moderators decision on open forum... which generally leads to the individual being banned!

Since this change has been made, the forum has slowly changed with moderators changing and altering contexts of threads and posts, with deleting selected posts or editing posts... Leaving individuals with no redress..

The forum now has lost some very knowledgeable members, other such as my self rarely post, there is total lack of discussion or debate about any information given etc... It’s slowly turning into a place that diabetes can only be discussed or information passed, that has been rubber stamped by the moderation team, and what they deem to be fit information to pass forward, this is now slowly killing the forum...

 

[Marky4]

I've only just registered here. But I think anything which is BAD ADVICE should clearly be moderated. Because potentially it can be harmful to people. This is a forum for people with a life threatening condition, and the advice they receive does need to be accurate. Luckily there seem to be people here who have a lot of knowledge about diabetes, to correct anything like this.

Having said this, any internet forum that is over-moderated, will always die a death. Fairly quickly. As soon as people feel that they can't express themselves fairly, many will just stop posting altogether. I, for example, would stop posting fairly quickly if I were to get an idea that this is going on here.

By "over-moderation", I mean editing and deleting posts that happen to disagree for personal reasons. Or people over-policing something just because they have been lucky enough to be given a position of power to do so.

Also, a little healthy argument here and there is healthy and makes things more interesting, and realistic.

 

[janabelle]

Jopar,
You're a brave woman for addressing this issue, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
PMs are also under the same scrutiny. I wonder how many forum members are aware that their PMs are not as private as they might imagine. :?
Jus

 

[cugila]

Jopar,
You're a brave woman for addressing this issue, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
PMs are also under the same scrutiny. I wonder how many forum members are aware that their PMs are not as private as they might imagine. :?
Jus

We are leaving this to run, a Monitor's decision. However, that comment is NOT true. It was mentioned a long time ago. It was not true then, neither is it now.

No Monitor's or Moderator sees ANY members pm's. However if it is reported to us, then the contents are visible. Forum rules and policy made by the Administrator.

Usual Forum rules also apply as regarding personal attacks on ANY member here.

cugila
Forum Monitor

 

[Dippy3103]

Any over modding has passed me by.
I do think it is very true that some advice could be so poor that it is dangerous and has to be removed.
Like many things in life diabetes is a question of one mans meat is another man's poison. I got the impression that was very much the ethos behind the site.

 

[jopar]

I will give Ken, Moderators don’t have direct access to our PM’s, this access can only be gained via the Admin panel As far as I am aware that Dan and his employer are the only ones who have access to the Admin panel, due to how moderators are chosen...

Is the forum over modded, well one could say that’s open to debate...

But it is of concern that when you see a post edited without explanation, now that is a concern, as edit’s can change the context of a post to the degree that it changes the whole thread...

Now if you’ve managed to read a post before editing, you can ascertain if the edit was valid or not, and yes there have been posts I would consider that the edit wasn’t warranted and/or that the edit has changed the post or thread direction completely, you then got to ask the reason why?

It’s the same with copy and paste, this only goes to prove that an individual knows where to find certain information, it doesn’t prove they are knowledgeable concerning the information passed, nothing wrong as such with copy and paste, if debate is allowed to follow, but it slowly becoming the case, that debating information provided is not being allowed anymore...

I’m all for healthy debate, but I am against individuals deeming how and what may be said, more so when they hide behind a closed door to avoid being answerable...

It’s about time, names were put to moderators, also the ability to contact and question decisions being made...

I also don't like it when, it's deemed that a thread is allowed to run!

 

[Bigglesworth]

"Is the forum over modded, well one could say that’s open to debate..."

What debate? Increasingly it looks like a mutual admiration society.

 

[Hobs]

I don’t like the idea of having nameless moderators hiding behind mod 1,2 3 etc, nor does it seem fair that individuals are unable to pm moderators, concerning any decision they deem fit to make... Unless they decide to address a moderators decision on open forum... which generally leads to the individual being banned!

Hmmm .. I do not know how the system operated before today but I just clicked upon Moderator4 and was shown the opportunity to send a PM if I wished.

Now as for actual moderation then this is a difficult task and it must be carried out to within the parameters drawn up by the forum owner. It is the forum owner who decides how it is to be run and judging by the many members who visit and keep visiting here, I would state that this forum is successfully moderated and managed.
Nobody is forced to become a member and those that choose to stay do so because they accept the forum the way it is.

As well as being a satisfied member here, I also own self-help forums (not for diabetes) within the Care group of the USA and without excellent dedicated moderators (known as co-hosts) I would have floundered years ago.
It is all too easy to criticize when you do not know what it is like from the other side of the management console or and how the owner wants the forum run; so without that knowledge criticism is all too easy to dole out.

 

[noblehead]

Jo,

Usually I agree with your posts and respect your knowledge and experience of living with diabetes, but on this occasion I fail to see where you are coming from. To my knowledge I have not seen any heavy handed moderating on this forum, if I had I would be the first to speak out and condemn any such behaviour............I can assure you!

Much like anything in life there are rules and regulations that one must adhere too, and internet forums are no exception. Goodness knows we have had our share of idiots posting on this forum in the past,causing trouble at every opportunity and still doing so from afar, who's purpose is to cause trouble and undermine the moderation team on this forum for their own ends, often staging personal vendettas against certain individuals by attacking their integrity and even their state of health, thankfully these days have now past but given the opportunity they would be back in a instant so careful monitoring needs to be in place to prevent this.

Overall, I believe that the changes which have taken place in the last 12 months have been necessary and has made this forum a far better place, there is far less bickering overall and it is a warmer more welcoming place for those that a newly diagnosed, even for those old-timers that have decided to stick around like myself......... :roll:

Nigel

 

[Administrator]

As ever, it's a free forum for the diabetes community to use as they wish. Moderation is a very difficult task and a fine balance, look forward to hearing more about what the community thinks.

they hide behind a closed door to avoid being answerable...

The moderation team were put 'behind a closed door' to protect against incredibly pathetic, hurtful attacks. This was my decision and I stand by it absolutely.

Furthermore, one point that needs to be put to bed at once is this:

PMs are also under the same scrutiny. I wonder how many forum members are aware that their PMs are not as private as they might imagine.

I will give Ken, Moderators don’t have direct access to our PM’s, this access can only be gained via the Admin panel

This is absolutely untrue. Neither the administrator nor the moderators can read your pms, nor have they been able to, nor will they be able to, ever.

 

[catherinecherub]

Thanks Dan for highlighting why things have changed regarding Moderating.

Does the OP want to go back to the days when she was a Moderator here. If I recall correctly. you were repeatedly taken to task by other Moderators, as were posters, who did not subscribe to a particular dietary programme of management for their Diabetes. A Dietitian was mocked repeatedly because she did not subscribe to this particular clique's diet.
The Moderation team were divided by diet and some posts were just removed without telling the poster, people were verbally abused by people who should have known better and all because we chose to manage our own diabetes in our own way.
I, for one, do not want to go back to that way of moderating. Whilst it may not be perfect here, quote me a forum that is.
It is very often the case that the poster does not re-read what they are about to post. You can be assertive without being aggressive and agree to disagree without being disagreeable but when personal attacks are resorted to then I ask myself, "What is the point that this poster is trying to get across?"
I would like to thank both Ken and Sue for the tireless effort they put in on this forum and also Dan for allowing us this facility.

 

[Dippy3103]

I don't remember the old days, being a fairly new member.
Other than that I agree wholeheartdly with Catherine. Debate is good, slanging matches not.
I have learned an awful lot from this forum and there are several very well informed people on here. Catherine, I very much appreciate the interesting links you frequently put up as well as the hard work done by the mods. There has to be some degree of modding on every forum and trust me, I can think of forums where it is much heavier handed. For what it is worth, I have seen forums where modding is done in another colour. Not a critisism just a suggestion that may help. But at the end of the day it is very much the choice of those who take the time to run and mod it how things are done. This is a free forum which we choose to use.

 

[cugila]

We have let this run for a while and we are now going to respond to the points raised here. I fail to see why we should have to defend ourselves on here however if it is what the majority of members wish...... then I'll begin.

We will not insult anybody and we expect the same in return. A discussion is fine, personal attacks are not going to be allowed. I wish to make that perfectly clear to ALL members.

Over the last year there have been several changes to the forum, some for the better but alas some I feel that have been derogatory to the forum and the support we are able to give to others...
Everybody is entitled to an opinion. however I would question why you think like that, perhaps you would like to give us some examples of what you mean. How you think the support given here is in some way worse ?
Not sure how everybody else feels, but I am for one not happy concerning how the moderation is set up and how moderation seems to be carried out...
That's the point isn't it. How it SEEMS is not always what ACTUALLY happens. What you might see is not the full picture. If you only go by what is visible you are wrong in your inferences, your assumptions . What happens behind the scenes is the rest of the Iceberg.......you only see a part of it on the surface. Quite often there has been much taking place in pm's before it gets onto the board. That is when action will be taken, we have rules about such things. We enforce them, impartially, whatever anybody might think.

I don’t like the idea of having nameless moderators hiding behind mod 1,2 3 etc, nor does it seem fair that individuals are unable to pm moderators, concerning any decision they deem fit to make... Unless they decide to address a moderators decision on open forum... which generally leads to the individual being banned!
You and others may not like the system but as Dan said, it was put in place for a reason and it remains the policy here. The rules here clearly state that if you wish to question a Moderator decision then you contact a Monitor who will liaise and see if an explanation for something can be provided. Now if a member is not satisfied they have an avenue of appeal, a pm to Dan. Some members have taken that course in the past and a decision made has been rescinded, other's who have seriously transgressed are not so fortunate and they have been permanently banned or suspended for a time. Not a decision taken lightly. That is what should happen. The Moderator's will not enter into ANY discussion with a member. That is all I will say about that. Any messages that are sent to them are forwarded to either myself or Sue.

Since this change has been made, the forum has slowly changed with moderators changing and altering contexts of threads and posts, with deleting selected posts or editing posts... Leaving individuals with no redress..
That statement is just NOT true. No Topics have been changed/altered etc in such a way, neither has the context of ANY post been changed despite what certain members post in other places have said. It is the duty of a Moderator and/or a Monitor to edit/add/delete/merge/move ANY topic or post when required. That is what every single member of this Forum agreed to when they joined. That is still the case and will remain that way. It is only done when necessary and is always done impartially. We know that members take offence at some of these things and we do give a reason for things either on the board in the section "Reason for editing" or send a pm. Some things are so minor they need no notification. As for redress, as before contact the Administrator if you wish to complain about something that took place.

The forum now has lost some very knowledgeable members, other such as my self rarely post, there is total lack of discussion or debate about any information given etc... It’s slowly turning into a place that diabetes can only be discussed or information passed, that has been rubber stamped by the moderation team, and what they deem to be fit information to pass forward, this is now slowly killing the forum...

I agree some members have left, however it should also be borne in mind that there is always a turnover on Fora, natural wastage. WE get at least 10-15 new members join every single day, some of them experienced and they are able to offer their experience to other members. When I first came here Dennis was the Byetta man.....then I came along and with his blessing took it over. He has other things to do now as I am sure many if these members who have left us have. They have given to the Diabetic Community here and now they want to do other things. Some have gone to their own Fora as you did Jo, it is entirely a matter for them if they do not wish to give their time to the members here. The reasons are many. That is a matter for them alone and not something I wish to speculate on. If people want to leave for whatever reason that is their choice.

As to why you Jo rarely post that is your decision. I post here to help any member I can, I don't walk away from someone who needs assistance even if personally I may not agree with them or their beliefs. Just me.

cugila
Forum Monitor

 

[sugarless sue]

Jopar said"
I will give Ken, Moderators don’t have direct access to our PM’s, this access can only be gained via the Admin panel As far as I am aware that Dan and his employer are the only ones who have access to the Admin panel, due to how moderators are chosen...

Dan has already responded to your claim that Admin can see PM’s. This may be the case on certain boards but not here and never has been, nothing to do with how Moderators are chosen either.

Is the forum over modded, well one could say that’s open to debate.

Well that's what you have got....

But it is of concern that when you see a post edited without explanation, now that is a concern, as edit’s can change the context of a post to the degree that it changes the whole thread...

Can you provide a source for this Jo ? Most edits are for offensive language, advertising or breaches of forum rules etc.An explanation is posted in the edit box at the bottom of the post with the name of whoever edited it. Ken has already addressed this point.


Now if you’ve managed to read a post before editing, you can ascertain if the edit was valid or not, and yes there have been posts I would consider that the edit wasn’t warranted and/or that the edit has changed the post or thread direction completely, you then got to ask the reason why?

Again, the forum is moderated by the rules which we abide by. You may not think an edit was warranted but the moderators/monitors do . That’s what moderating is about as you should know Jo. The rules have changed since you were a moderator.

It’s the same with copy and paste, this only goes to prove that an individual knows where to find certain information, it doesn’t prove they are knowledgeable concerning the information passed, nothing wrong as such with copy and paste, if debate is allowed to follow, but it slowly becoming the case, that debating information provided is not being allowed anymore...

I know of no forum on the Net that would exist without copy and paste ! There are no experts on this forum, you are only an expert in your own diabetes and can pass on your experiences to other members. As both of us regularly copy and paste information for members benefit WE take exception to that remark ! I am not an expert but there are plenty of knowledgeable and expert web sites where the information can be found. Do you suggest that we hand type out all the info for members that we post? When we do type out posts( thousands of them ) it is from our own knowledge both learnt and experienced .

As for healthy debate I see plenty !
No longer are members frightened to post because they will be castigated for their diet or medication etc.

Yes we do correct misinformation on the forum. We pride ourselves on giving correct information on the forum for the benefit of new confused members. If they then wish to follow other information that is their choice but at least they have the been given information usually taken from reputable medical web sites.


I’m all for healthy debate, but I am against individuals deeming how and what may be said, more so when they hide behind a closed door to avoid being answerable..

The Monitors are the public face of the forum, the go between's between members and moderators. Dan has already explained why and you Jo are perfectly aware of what happened here before. The Moderators remain anonymous, your avenue of communication is first through the monitors and then, if you are not satisfied, to the Administrator. This way of communication has not changed that much.

It’s about time, names were put to moderators, also the ability to contact and question decisions being made.

A polite request to the Monitors about a decision is always addressed...

I also don't like it when, it's deemed that a thread is allowed to run!

It is not your decision Jo, whether a thread runs or not.... After all the forum rules state no criticism of Mods /Monitors but in the interests of communication in the forum this thread is still here.

Sugarless Sue
Forum Monitor

 

[Patch]

I don't like posts that are typed all in bold.

 

[jopar]

Reinforcing the message behind my original post, I expressed concerns and an opinion with the current moderation system in use on the forum, which is manned by 5 anonymous individuals. To make any personal attack on those moderators, I would have to be able to indentify those moderators, to be able to put individual name to them… At what point does expressing an opinion turn into criticism?

It appears that the Monitors, not the moderators, have taken offence, How ever I do agree with Bigglesworth that ‘over modding of the forum’’ should be debated (I offer no personal opinion to whether it is or isn’t)

To clarify my concerns...

1, if one has a grievance with another member of the forum, how does one know that they aren’t complaining to the very same person they have a grievance with?

2, Take this one step further, if the moderators decision is final, then how do we know this decision has be reached in an unbiased manner?

3, what do Moderators and Monitors consider being personal attack?

4, If we have a grievance with a Monitor, to whom do we complain, More so as the only means of communication with any of 5 anonymous moderators? How do we know that the monitors aren’t in fact the moderators?

These are my main concerns, which I feel are much validated to debate, has these can have impact on every member of the forum…

 

[cugila]

I don't like posts that are typed all in bold.

Well Patch. That's a pity because as the rules here clearly state, any post made by a Moderator OR a Monitor will be posted in bold type.

This is to differentiate between posts made by us as ordinary members which are made in normal typeface.

cugila
Forum Monitor

 

[Patch]

Oh, I see. My bad.

 

[Administrator]

Before this escalates into a battle of the bolds

As ever, we will listen to community opinions on this up to a point. The current system has worked well to prevent the ongoing personal attacks, but perhaps it is time for a change. Let's see a community-formulated proposal of a solution.

- Anonymous or public moderators?
- Five moderators or ten?
- Possible candidates?
- Knowledgeable moderators on each specific forum?

Answers either here or by pm to me (through which anyone can always contact about anything if required)

All I can say is, the monitors do a very good job, and don't deserve anything but praise.

Regards,

Admin

 

[Patch]

Okay - that's a bit weird, and I think what this thread is all about. Sue has changed the formatting of my previous post.

Reason: Edited for clarity. :?: Really?

That changes the whole context of my post - censoring it. That's quite dangerous, don't you think? I'm the voice of me - I don't want mods/monitors to tone me down, or change what I've written.

Why did you change my formatting, Sue? Seems a bit petty to me.