Newcastle comes to Oldham

andrewk

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166
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Folks who "know it all" (but don't)
A bit of background .........

I am now 63 years old. I was diagnosed as Type 2 in November 2005, after I borrowed someone else's box of Diastix and later bought an Abbott Freestyle Mini monitor. My GP asked me to record fasting BG for a couple of weeks and then see him again. The readings were all very high - the lowest being about 12-13 mmol/l and the highest around 25 mmol/l (from memory). After that, I had a blood test and Type 2 diabetes was confirmed as the diagnosis when it came back at some high level (cannot remember exactly what it was). I was put on 2x500mm metformin tablets per day at first, but this was soon increased to 4x500mg per day. Dietary advice was of the typical NHS kind - i.e. balanced diet with lots of portions of carbohydrate.

I must admit up front that I hadn't discovered the forums here and relied upon the medication to keep my blood glucose under control rather than diet. In the year after diagnosis, my weight was around 19 stones (I'm about 6ft 1 ins - and all my family are "big"). Over the next few years, I gradually put on weight and despite the early improvement due to the medication, my HBA1C also floated upwards. At some stage glimepiride (a sulphonylurea) was added to the medication mix, then later sitagliptin. At my annual review in July 2011, I weighed nearly 20 stones, my HBA1C was 8.9% and my GP increased the glimepiride to 6mg per day which he said was the maximum "safe" dosage. He also gave me a bit of a (well deserved) wigging and asked me how I felt about the prospect of injecting insulin, as that would be the inevitable consequence if I didn't lose some weight and get more exercise.

My GP had consistently told me that Type 2 diabetes was a permanent and inevitably progressive disease, so I was quite surprised when I happened across the diabetes.co.uk website & forum and discovered the recently published paper by Professor Roy Taylor's team at Newcastle which suggested that Type 2 diabetes might be reversible for folks who had recently developed the condition. I read every word of the paper and to my surprise, understood quite a bit of it. The statistics, I'd previously used professionally using the same tools (earlier version of SPSS) but not in a medical context. The report seemed very positive and held out quite a bit of hope. I did ponder though, about whether the reduction in the pancreatic and hepatic fats that underlie the condition might not equally (or more) effectively be reduced using a low carbohydrate diet (Atkins) rather than by the much more difficult (I thought at the time) hypo-caloric "Newcastle" diet.

As we were shortly to go on holiday in August 2011, I decided to kick off on a low carb diet after reading about the Dukan Diet (low carb, low fat, high protein). I lost the best part of a stone quite quickly and from the little BG testing I did, discovered that my blood glucose fell substantially too. In fact, they dropped to near normal very quickly - but at that time, I was still on all the medication listed above. In September 2011, I did a bit more research, bought one of the Atkins books and decided to have a serious attempt at a low carb diet using the Atkins approach. This was really quite effective but before the end of September I was starting to get one or two hypos (2.5-3.5 mmol/l) so I dropped both the glimepiride and sitagliptin - but continued with the 4xmetformins for the time being. At my next blood test, towards the end of October, I discussed the situation with the diabetic nurse who was very supportive of the dieting. At the time, my HBA1C had fallen to 6.7% and my weight to about 17.5 stones. So far so good ..........

By the time Christmas arrived, my weight seemed to have plateaued at about 16.5 stones. A fall of around 3.5 stones. Christmas, though, being Christmas rather got in the way of dieting. I gained about four or five pounds and it took quite a while to shift those in the New Year to get back to where I was pre-Christmas. After a rather frustrating period of eating too much cheese, losing no weight and seeing little change in my blood sugars, I was gradually migrating towards the notion that I might have to try this Newcastle diet. Before doing that, though, I was determined to see if I could reduce or eliminate the metformins that I was taking by restarting the Atkins induction phase. This did work to a large degree but there was some rise in my fasting blood glucose levels, after I dropped the last of the medication on April Fool's day this year. I discovered quite quickly that my (Dawn Phenomennon affected) fasting levels rose a bit to 7.5 mmol/l from the fairly steady 6.5 mmol/l it had been whilst I was still taking 2x500mg metformins per day. I had discussed doing reducing the metformins with the diabetic nurse when I saw her in early March this year (HBA1C disappointingly pretty much the same at 6.8%) and also the prospect of trying a Newcastle style diet. Her reaction was very supportive - but she advised that I take care and continue with the testing (she also offered a prescription for test strips to help in the process).

I decided that the Atkins diet had contributed about as much as it could do, at the moment, especially as I seem to have a cheese addiction which rather spoils things a bit - and that I would start a Newcastle style diet on Saturday 21st April 2012. After looking at the options, the Tesco diet meal replacement shakes seem as good as any and are actually cheaper than eating (£4 /tin - 12 meals). The banana, vanilla and strawberry shakes all taste great too when made with Lactolite milk (fewer carbs than skimmed).

My main reasons for creating this thread are as a motivational tool for me - but also because it's quite some time since I was diagnosed now and I have a considerable dose of Dawn Phenomenon, which might both make it a bit more difficult for me to be as successful with the diet as several other forum users obviously have been. I really hope that this works and that I can kick the medication for good. Time will tell ........

(Sorry about the length of the post - a gold star to anyone who actually reads it all)
Andrew
 

catza

Well-Known Member
Messages
548
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi Andrew, interesting to read how you arrived at this point. I will be very interested to hear how you get on. How have your figures gone this first week and how do you feel in yourself?
 

andrewk

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Messages
166
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
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Folks who "know it all" (but don't)
I did start the "Newcastle" diet on Saturday 21 April 2012. My plan is to have 3 Tesco shakes per day made with Lacolite (or skimmed cow's milk) and 200g of green veg to improve the fibre in the diet. I also take a Tesco multivitamin and mineral tablet each day too. I'll try to update this thread with my results on a regular basis - at least weekly but probably more often.

My weight at the start of the diet (Day 0) was 105.3 kg (16st 7.5 lb)

Day 0 BG: Fasting: 7.4, Breakfast+2: 7.8, Lunch+2: 6.2, Dinner+2: 6.2, Bedtime: 5.4
Day 1 BG: Fasting: 6.7, Bedtime: 5.3
Day 2 BG: Fasting: 7.4, Breakfast+2: 7.9, Bedtime: 5.2
Day 3 BG: Fasting: 6.6, Breakfast+2: 7.9, Bedtime: 4.7
Day 4 BG: Fasting: 6.7, Breakfast+2: 7.8, Bedtime: 4.4
Day 5 BG: Fasting: 5.9, Breakfast+2: 9.7, Bedtime: 5.3
Day 6 BG: Fasting: 6.3, Breakfast+2: 8.5

My weight this morning was 101.8kg (16 stones exactly) - so I've lost 7.5lb in the first 6 days, which I am happy with. I must admit, though, that I am a little disapppointed at the lack of progress on the blood glucose reduction. Mind you, I have been doing the low-carb Atkins bit for a while so maybe I should expect a slower start. So far I've been feeling great but haven't been sleeping quite as well as I usually do (might not be related to the diet). The shakes are brilliant and I don't feel anything like as hungry as I expected to do. This could be easier to keep to than I imagined.

One thing I have discovered - if you have a penchant for the occasional tipple in the evening (Scotch in my case), take care in interpreting bedtime readings. An hour after a "wee dram" my BG falls to sub 4 - presumably because my liver forgets all about converting glycogen into glucose while it deals with the alcohol assault.

I'll do a full check of all the post-meal and bedtime readings once per week on each Saturday.

Andrew
 

Defren

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3,106
Great to have you on board Andrew. I am heading toward a week in and so it's great to have some one to share this journey with. Before the ND I was following Viv's modified Atkins diet, it's a sticky in the T2 forum. I know that Atkins will always be the way forward after the diet, but I am already looking toward the future after the diet and as to what I plan to do to keep the BG levels down. I am using Atkins shakes as they are lower carb, and like you am finding I am not hungry between meals, but I am ready for the shakes at meal times. I am not having anything else but shakes. I would like to do four weeks just shakes, then the remaining 4 weeks with 3 shakes and a little veg. My levels are nothing short of miraculous and there is no one who could now tell me this diet doesn't work. I have never had 4's yet of my seven tests yesterday 3 were fours. My FBG this morning was 4.9. I had to check my meter wasn't faulty as I couldn't believe what I was seeing. The ND does work, there is not a single shred of doubt in my mind. My weight is dropping like my figures as well. I will post weekly weight losses on my ND experience thread each Monday.

It's really good to have you along, I have no doubt both of us will gain huge amounts toward to control of our diabetes with this diet. It's not a cure, but so far I know nothing that can touch it when it comes to getting the very best control possible.
 

andrewk

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Messages
166
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
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Folks who "know it all" (but don't)
Defren said:
so far I know nothing that can touch it when it comes to getting the very best control possible.

You are using Atkins shakes, which if memory serves, have only about 2gm of carb per shake (so 6gm per day) - but I am using Tesco shakes which have 26.1gm of carb per shake (so 78.3gm of carb per day). Effectively, you are combining Newcastle and the Atkins induction phase.

If my blood glucose figures don't improve substantially by say Day 14 (two weeks into the diet), maybe I should think about doing that too.

Andrew
 

beekeeper

Newbie
Messages
4
Hi both.

Keep at it. I'm just under 2 weeks into it and as everyone says, it's not as hard to maintain as I thought it would be. My bloods tend to stay at around 5.5 (although I do get dawn phenomon). I'm wary of getting too excited about BG's during the diet. It seems obvious that if we are not eating carbs (whichever shake we are on- the amount of carbs is very low over a day) or anything else, then BG will drop because the liver has nothing to convert. My feeling is that if the ND works, one of the reasons may be that the liver is cleared out of it's stores of Glycogen and so isn't creating BG, then beta cells have some time to rest and even to store some insulin. I think the real test would be how our bodies react to a cake and bag of sweets one year after we finish. (I'm not gonna try it though!).
I've got a couple of questions about shakes. I'm on the ASDA shakes because they don't need milk, just water and I know the ND says no dairy products. Do your shakes come to 200 calories each WITH the milk added? The only drinkable ASDA one is strawberry, and I imagine I'll be pretty sick of it soon, so I'm curious about alternatives.
 

borofergie

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3,169
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beekeeper said:
My feeling is that if the ND works, one of the reasons may be that the liver is cleared out of it's stores of Glycogen and so isn't creating BG, then beta cells have some time to rest and even to store some insulin.

Yes. It works exactly the same way as a very-low-carb ketogenic diet.

Your liver stores about 100g of glycogen on a regular diet (although this can be pushed up to 200g by carbo-loading). On a very-low-carb-ketogenic diet this can be reduced down to less than 13g.

The shakes are about 60g of carb a day aren't they? They won't deplete your liver glycogen to hardcore ketosis levels, but they will knock it down significantly.
 

andrewk

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Messages
166
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
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Folks who "know it all" (but don't)
beekeeper said:
I've got a couple of questions about shakes. I'm on the ASDA shakes because they don't need milk, just water and I know the ND says no dairy products. Do your shakes come to 200 calories each WITH the milk added? The only drinkable ASDA one is strawberry, and I imagine I'll be pretty sick of it soon, so I'm curious about alternatives.

I'm not sure about the Atkins shakes - only what I see online. The Tesco shakes are 200cals INCLUDING 250ml of skimmed milk (26.1gm carb per meal - about half of that is in the shake powder and half in the milk. I'm not so keen on chocolate or coffee flavoured shakes (you might be, though) - but the Tesco strawberry, banana and vanilla shakes are really very nice. I sometimes add half a teaspoon of cinnamon to the vanilla shake mix (read somewhere that it can help reducing blood sugar) which also tastes great.

I have tried one of the pre-made Atkins shakes - strawberry IIRC. From memory, it's much lower carb but nothing like as good to drink as the Tesco shakes.

Andrew
 

andrewk

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Messages
166
Type of diabetes
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Folks who "know it all" (but don't)
borofergie said:
The shakes are about 60g of carb a day aren't they?

The Tesco shakes are 26.1g of carb per meal x 3 = 78.3g per day plus another 5-10g or so from the 200g or so of green veg. It could be nearly 100g carbs per day in total. (I'm getting worried about that as I'm tryping it). If you use Lactolite instead of skimmed milk, it tastes just as good but reduces the total carbs in 3 shakes to about 60gm per day.

How much carbohydrate is there in the ASDA shakes?

Andrew
 

youngmanfrank

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Messages
102
There are a lot of posts on the Newcastle Diet and some published papers (links also posted elsewhere on this forum).Read these to help you make sense of it all.

Diabetes is a condition in which your insulin sensitivity is reduced,or insufficient insulin is produced.As a result blood sugars are not properly processed and blood sugar levels rise.The Newcastle diet claims to reverse this by de-fatting the pancreas and liver.Once your insulin is working properly your blood glucose levels will return to normal.Sounds simple but there are many unanswered questions,especially how long the effect will last once the diet has concluded.The only established fact so far is that it has worked for some people,like myself,who are now work in progress.I am coming up to six months and still ok,one of the original Newcastle volunteers is still off meds after 18 months,but no figures as to blood sugar control were given.

My personal feeling all along has been that it is essential to get body weight down to a normal BMI,and that the diet should be combined with exercise.I have read that the insulin normalises relatively quickly,the rest of the dieting period is to complete the weight reduction.
 

andrewk

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Messages
166
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Folks who "know it all" (but don't)
youngmanfrank said:
Sounds simple but there are many unanswered questions,especially how long the effect will last once the diet has concluded.

Indeed yes, but if the study team's hypothesis that Type 2 diabetes is caused by excessive fat in the pancreas and liver is true AND if the diet normalises those fat levels then the effect should be permanent, providing of course that a sensible diet is adopted thereafter.

I think my main concern is that the presentation of some of the statistics in the study report is a bit icky. A lay-reader could easily be drawn to the conclusion that the fasting BG and HBA1C normalised in the diabetic study group by the end of the 8 week period - but that isn't what the report actually says. It says that they are "not significantly different" from those of the non-diabetic control group, which isn't the same thing at all. Both the diabetic group's mean fasting BG and mean HBA1C were still higher than those of the control group - and that difference might well have been significant if the sample size had been larger.

I'm moderately confident that the effect will be permanent, providing that I don't repeat whatever I did to give myself the disease in the first place. I'm also convinced that 8 weeks of drinking pink grot meal replacements is far from the end of the story and that my blood glucose will only be truly normalised after a long period of sensible (low carb) dieting, if ever.

I agree with your comment about BMI. To get down to a BMI of say 22, I need to lose another 60 lb which, if achieved, will mean that I'll have lost just short of 8 stones in total. Maintaining motivation for the 6-12 months needed to achieve that could be quite a challenge. (I'll need quite a few new clothes too!!)

Andrew
 
A

Anonymous

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borofergie said:
beekeeper said:
My feeling is that if the ND works, one of the reasons may be that the liver is cleared out of it's stores of Glycogen and so isn't creating BG, then beta cells have some time to rest and even to store some insulin.

Yes. It works exactly the same way as a very-low-carb ketogenic diet.

Your liver stores about 100g of glycogen on a regular diet (although this can be pushed up to 200g by carbo-loading). On a very-low-carb-ketogenic diet this can be reduced down to less than 13g.

The shakes are about 60g of carb a day aren't they? They won't deplete your liver glycogen to hardcore ketosis levels, but they will knock it down significantly.

BF, are you saying that ultra low carbing will do what the ND does? If so, that is what I suspect, if not, I suspect ultra low carbing can do the same as the ND ;)
 

Defren

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3,106
Jeannemum said:
borofergie said:
beekeeper said:
My feeling is that if the ND works, one of the reasons may be that the liver is cleared out of it's stores of Glycogen and so isn't creating BG, then beta cells have some time to rest and even to store some insulin.

Yes. It works exactly the same way as a very-low-carb ketogenic diet.

Your liver stores about 100g of glycogen on a regular diet (although this can be pushed up to 200g by carbo-loading). On a very-low-carb-ketogenic diet this can be reduced down to less than 13g.

The shakes are about 60g of carb a day aren't they? They won't deplete your liver glycogen to hardcore ketosis levels, but they will knock it down significantly.

BF, are you saying that ultra low carbing will do what the ND does? If so, that is what I suspect, if not, I suspect ultra low carbing can do the same as the ND ;)

To be honest Jeanne, I personally don't think it's too far off. If you low carb and restrict your calories to 600 - 800 a day, then perhaps. The only thing that makes me think differently is my own experience. You know my calories and carbs were ultra low, yet I didn't get the results in lower BG or weight loss that I am now. Sooo... I think there may be something in doin just the shakes and sticking to the ND as was, as it does do something. You can see my drastic BG drops, that can't be coincidence. I do think doing 600 - 800 cals and low carbs after the diet will certainly keep figures as low as they are now. The ND is all about increasing liver and pancreatic function, that doesn't seem to occur in a normal low cal low carb diet for some reason.
 
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I think it might depend on the person and when they were caught Jo. I am wondering if my low carbing was enough to let me do that stupid carb fest the other night and get away with it. I know I would never consider the ND unless I was using the low carb shakes like you are. On the normal stuff I would be eating way above the amount I allow myself each day.

Do you really intend to only eat 600 to 800 cals a day? If you do you are being very fool hardy.
 

Defren

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3,106
Jeannemum said:
I think it might depend on the person and when they were caught Jo. I am wondering if my low carbing was enough to let me do that stupid carb fest the other night and get away with it. I know I would never consider the ND unless I was using the low carb shakes like you are. On the normal stuff I would be eating way above the amount I allow myself each day.

Do you really intend to only eat 600 to 800 cals a day? If you do you are being very fool hardy.

We are all individual, so it's a personal choice, for me why not at least take a chance.

600 - 800 is not sustainable Jeanne, you would loose far too much weight, it stands to reason you would have to up calories to maintain your goal weight.
 
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Anonymous

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Defren said:
Jeannemum said:
I think it might depend on the person and when they were caught Jo. I am wondering if my low carbing was enough to let me do that stupid carb fest the other night and get away with it. I know I would never consider the ND unless I was using the low carb shakes like you are. On the normal stuff I would be eating way above the amount I allow myself each day.

Do you really intend to only eat 600 to 800 cals a day? If you do you are being very fool hardy.

We are all individual, so it's a personal choice, for me why not at least take a chance.

600 - 800 is not sustainable Jeanne, you would loose far too much weight, it stands to reason you would have to up calories to maintain your goal weight.

Thank goodness for that. I thought you meant that was all you were going to eat after. As for the ND. I said I would only consider doing it if I had low carb shakes like you have.
 

Defren

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3,106
I will continue to watch calories when I come off the ND until I reach my goal weight, whatever that happens to be. But then I think you would have to put them up, or your going to be in the realm of anorexia and that is not a good idea ever. All I want it tight and low BG levels. I am looking at what is right for me, when finished the diet, so far I have a couple of options, but have a bit over 7 weeks to decide which way I am going to go. The ND won't get to me to a weight with normal BMI even though I am in the overweight rather than obese bracket, or at least I don't think it will. I think the weight drops will plateau then when I am done the ND I need to see how much more I need to loose to be within healthy BMI and then make a final decision. For now, the ND is doing all I want it to which is reducing my BG and allowing my pancreas and liver some breathing space to help them help me post ND.
 

andrewk

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166
Type of diabetes
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I'm now one week into the diet - only 7 weeks to go. :)

My FBG this morning is 6.2 mmol/l (down from 7.4 at the start) and my weight is 16 stones exactly, so I've lost 7.5 lb this week. I'm happy with that. I am feeling fine, sleeping OK and not especially hungry between meals - so that's OK too. Last night around 10pm I dug out a packet of Ketostix and discovered that I am still, very slightly in ketosis, which is great. I am, though, a little worried about the amount of carbohydrate in the Tesco shakes I'm using. It is 26.1g per shake when made with 250g skimmed milk - which is more than I've been having on Atkins for a full day.

I'm considering changing the milk I use to make up the Tesco shakes. I have been using skimmed milk which contributes more than half the protein in the made-up shake but also 12.5g carbs per 250ml. Soya milk, if I can put up with it, has fewer calories, slightly less protein but way fewer carbs. If I changed to using "So Good Lite" soya milk instead of cow's milk, the nett effect per day would be a reduction of 100 calories, a reduction of 10g protein and a reduction of 34g of carbs (leaving a daily total of maybe 50-55g carbs). This looks very attractive to me - and it leaves scope to add back a little lean meat or fish to eat with the 200g green salad veg I have each day (I can pretend its a proper meal!!) - which will increase the protein to a more sustainable level without adding back any carbs or breaking the calory budget.

From memory of the last time I tried it, I wouldn't normally choose to drink soya milk by the glass - but - when used to make up a strawberry or banana shake, it could be OK. I'll pick some up when I go shopping later today and try it out.

Overall, I think the first week has been a success. It's not hard to keep to the diet. I'm sleeping OK, feeling OK and I'm delighted by the weight loss. My blood sugar levels could be better, especially the morning fasting one (6.2) and two hours after breakfast (7.7) but I didn't expect a very rapid fall in the first week as I have been low-carbing for quite a while and my starting point was a bit better than the average for the diabetic study group in the Newcastle trial. It's definitely worth sticking with this.

Andrew
 

andrewk

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166
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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I've just got back from shopping in Tesco - bought several 1 litre cartons of Tesco (own brand) unsweetened soya milk. It has only 0.5g of total carbs per 250ml - so 1.5g in three shakes worth. Skimmed milk has 12.5g of carbs in 250ml, so by using the soya milk, I'm saving 36g of carbs per day - and reducing the daily total (inc 200g typical veg) to less than 50g.

I've just had a Tesco banana shake made with soya milk for lunch - tastes great. Approx 172 calories and 14.1 net carbs. I think I can afford a few prawns with my green veg this afternoon - what a treat!!

Andrew
 
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Anonymous

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andrewk said:
I've just got back from shopping in Tesco - bought several 1 litre cartons of Tesco (own brand) unsweetened soya milk. It has only 0.5g of total carbs per 250ml - so 1.5g in three shakes worth. Skimmed milk has 12.5g of carbs in 250ml, so by using the soya milk, I'm saving 36g of carbs per day - and reducing the daily total (inc 200g typical veg) to less than 50g.

I've just had a Tesco banana shake made with soya milk for lunch - tastes great. Approx 172 calories and 14.1 net carbs. I think I can afford a few prawns with my green veg this afternoon - what a treat!!

Andrew

That is an interesting result Andrew. Thanks for posting, especially the fact it tastes nice :)