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Question about BG rise after feeding evening despite normal postprandial

Discussion in 'Fasting' started by DevGuy, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. DevGuy

    DevGuy · Active Member

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    Hi all,
    I'm a long-term ADF faster, having started in 2011, but dropped off for some time because of an minor issue (I had been looking for a job, and the fasting had caused my neck to become very wrinkly, making me look much older than my age - and I assumed that was a factor in my rejections). That's when my BG rose from pre-diabetic to diabetic levels, diagnosed 11 months ago.

    I have lost 17 kilos since Oct last year, and while I haven't got an HBA1C test done recently, my 5-times-a-day finger-prick tests indicate I'm firmly at least in the low prediabetic range now.

    Since Oct, I have been sticking to 4 feeding times per week - all within a 5-hour window in the evenings.

    I've still got about 3 kilos to lose to reach my target weight, which should give me a buffer in case my weight begins to rise (during Xmas and New Year, for example). However, further weight loss has become frustratingly slow. I'm losing less than a kilo per month now, despite being a regular runner averaging 30 mins a day. Weekly calorie intake does not exceed 12K at this time. For a 6-foot male of 55, this seems an adequate caloric restriction. Currently, I weigh 70 kilos on my lowest day, and am aiming for 67 in 2 months.

    My diet is usually a mix of the following:

    - 500g of frozen spinach, microwaved (this is the base of my diet).
    - Hard cheeses (around 25-40g).
    - Oily fish (salmon, mackerel, sardines - equivalent of 95g can).
    - Chicken breast (250g)
    - Modest amounts of Dhal-type soups (chickpeas, kidney beans, lentils) cooked in extra virgin olive oil.
    - 600ml milk* (I know this is high carb, and am considering replacing this entirely with hard cheeses, which are low carb).
    - 100g mixed nuts
    - 1 slice of bread (not always)* (Will probably eliminate this).
    - 2 standard drinks of red wine on Friday evenings

    The morning after fasting day, my BG hovers around 4.4 to 4.8.
    On feeding evenings, my BG after 2 hours of the end of the feeding session (postprandial) is around 5.8-6.0 - this, of course, is in the good range.
    However, the morning after feeding evening, it rises close to 7, before starting to decline over the rest of the day.

    What could be causing my postprandial BG to be in the good range, but the morning after reading to be significantly higher?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. SuNuman

    SuNuman Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  3. SuNuman

    SuNuman Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi. It is something to do with the liver dump. Apparently the liver puts your readings up on a morning fasting to prepare you for if you are not going to eat - someone else less thick than me (lol) could explain it better. Also I have read that fasting numbers are the last to come down. X.
     
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  4. DevGuy

    DevGuy · Active Member

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    You seem to be referring to the so-called Dawn Phenomenon, @SuNuman. I've read extensively about it, and considered whether what I'm experiencing is the Dawn Phenomenon, but there are so many divergent views about this phenomenon that I am not entirely convinced this applies to my experience. For example, my first BG readings can be close to 7 mmol/l even at 10.30am (fasting, the morning after feeding evening), and that's not really dawn.
     
  5. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I had a trial of the Libre 2 recently. I discovered my BG over night was a flat line which started to rise about 7am when I stir from sleep. It is a waking phenomenon rather than a dawn phenomenon, although they could coincide.
     
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  6. DevGuy

    DevGuy · Active Member

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    Is the rise that you see still within the normal range?
     
  7. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Bear in mind that one persons results don't necessarily apply to anyone else. I have my low carb breakfast at 9.00.
    Screenshot 2021-09-11 102342.png
     
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  8. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    You are on a classic yoyo of blood glucose levels.

    When you fast your bloods go down due to carb depletion and you not refiling with them.

    You then eat some relatively carb heavy meals which restocks your carb stores which then causes the higher blood glucose readings the next day.

    You are also putting your body under stress by not eating enough wrecking your metabolism.

    This likely combined with some dawn phenomenon is the reason why you see the results you do.
     
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  9. SuNuman

    SuNuman Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    No but it’s still fasting as in you have not eaten anything since the evening before. X
     
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  10. SuNuman

    SuNuman Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. Just reread your post. I really don’t kno. Unless your body thinks you are not going to eat again. X
     
  11. DevGuy

    DevGuy · Active Member

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    Thanks for all your advice, everyone.

    This is what I'm going to try:

    - Move my ADF feeding time to 12pm - 5pm from the current 4pm-9pm. This won't be easy, as it'll be smack in the middle of my work hours, but I have a hunch that this experiment *may* bring down the higher readings the next morning.
    - Reduce carbs some more. Mainly by replacing milk with hard cheese, and removing pistachios from the mixed nuts part of my diet.

    At all other times - on full-fast days and postprandially - my readings are normal. This morning-after-feeding-evening blip is the only irritant at this time.

    As for fears expressed by some on this thread (and elsewhere on these forums in response to my requests for information/advice) that I may be starving myself: I come from a family of light eaters who are all lean, and there are no diabetics on either side of the family. My Mom, for example, is 5'11" and weighs 52 kilos.. My diabetes is probably traceable to a severe and prolonged tropical Hepatitis A infection in childhood, which did my liver no good.

    Also a significant motivator is this extract from a news article after the actor Tom Hanks was diagnosed with T2D 9 years ago:
    "My doctor said, 'Look, if you can weigh as much as you weighed in high school, you will essentially be completely healthy and will not have type 2 diabetes.' And then I said to her, 'Well then I'm going to have type 2 diabetes because there is no way I can weigh as much as I did in high school."
    "I weighed 96 pounds in high school," Hanks added, calling his teenage self "a very skinny boy."


    I was that skinny boy, too.
     
  12. Lamont D

    Lamont D Reactive hypoglycemia · Master

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    I have been told that a true fasting blood glucose levels, is one when you test just before your first meal of the day, what ever time it is. If you are having breakfast early morning, then wait for around half an hour after waking, and you should be active before testing, this will give you a norm reading you can relate and trust.
     
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  13. coby

    coby Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    But it's still when you 'break your fast'?
     
  14. coby

    coby Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    This is what I think too! Breaking your overnight fast can be anytime of the following day
     
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  15. MrsA2

    MrsA2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Or even never at all if fasting more than 24 hours
    :)
    Thats why I pick a time that fits with my routine just so I make sure I've done one, at least. Right after teeth clean suits me
     
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  16. DevGuy

    DevGuy · Active Member

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    Update: I moved my feeding time forward, and the reading this morning dropped to 5.8
    Today is fasting day, so the reading tomorrow morning will be around 4.4 - 4.8
    Postprandial readings are between 5.5 and 6.2
    LCHF diet now, in addition to ADF

    Will see how this goes over the next few weeks, then get an HBA1C test done
     
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