Question regarding the best ingredients to use.

[Durthic]

Hi everyone!

As the subject suggests, I need your help with some food related questions.

My father has recently been diagnosed with T2 diabetes, and after looking through foods that he can and can't have, I decided to see if there was anything that I can do to help him out.

I am a butcher by trade, and as such, I want to see if there's a way that I can put my trade skills to use in order to help him continue to enjoy some of the foods that he has enjoyed prior to being diagnosed.

From what I have read up on diabetes and safe foods (and it is an information overload for me, so I doff my cap to each and every one of you!), I have decided to start out by trying to formulate a sausage recipe that has the best possible taste, yet made using only natural, safe ingredients with the lowest possible glycemic index, and also with attributes that best lend themselves to keeping a handle on everything diabetes related.

Now, we tend to live on a low sodium diet anyway, so I'll be trying to keep salt down to a minimum, as well as fat content. the thing I have been struggling with is what to replace the rusk with. Since rusk is not the best thing for diabetes, I was considering things like oatmeal (from what I've read it's high in protein, and has a very low GI, and also helps to stabilise blood sugar levels.), or even pea protein. I've managed to establish that whole grain breads are good for diabetes, so there is that, although talking with yourselves will help me get confirmation on that.

From there, I'll be planning things outside of sausages, things like burgers (which we don't eat often at all, but thought a diabetes friendly burger would be good for an occasional reward for doing well with diet, etc.), meatballs, and so on, but I thought it best to start small and build from there.

I know there will be the inevitable "Just leave them out", however, the purpose of the rusk in a sausage is to retain moisture to give the sausage a succulent taste, and also give it a good mouth feel texture. This is why I am trying to find an alternative to rusk.

Thanks in advance for your help, and I hope you understand what I'm getting at!

Directory of Recipes Posted to save you trawling the thread looking for them!

Classic Steak Burger & Meatballs

 

[dawnmc]

Lucky dad, can't help you really think it might be a case of trial and error, making a small amount up, cooking it, tasting and testing blood sugar. Wish I could be your taster.

 

[Morganator]

Do you want to adopt me?

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[Daibell]

Hi. You're on the right track. Go for unprocessed carbs where you can such as wholegrain bread as a filler. Keep the meat level up and don't worry too much about fats. It's the carbs that tend to make us obese and contribute to fat distribution around the body. Oatmeal should be OK in sensible quantity. Keep up the good work!

 

[carty]

Black farmer does a good low carb sausage that tastes good can you steal the recipe :lol: :twisted:
I have a good local butcher so I make my own burgers just with meat onion and herbs ,minced lamb works well with mint not trying to teach Granny to suck eggs here but just some ideas
CAROL

 

[Durthic]

Thanks for all your replies! I really wasn't sure if I was on the right track with my research or not, so that is a huge relief!

Simply going by what you all have said, I've already figured out some test recipes! Here's what I have in mind so far (they are also good for people with a wheat intolerance!):

- Steak Breakfast Sausage
- Pork Breakfast Sausage
- Traditional Lincolnshire Sausage
- My version of Lincolnshire Sausage (added in a couple of different seasonings to have a play with the flavour)
- Cumberland Sausage
- Pork and Leek Sausage
- Pork and Apple Sausage

So not a bad list to begin testing with. I have ideas for a sweet chilli one and a chorizo one, but i'll get the ones above out of the way first! Ironically, I have also already thought of a way to adapt the above into meatballs too, so you could use them in a bolognese or something similar.

I did also have a little fun and think up a no boil haggis recipe too, it should be pretty straight forward to make too!

Once I get the research out of the way and see how it effects my dad's blood sugar levels, I'll also post up the recipes too especially for you guys to try out if you would like?

 

[carty]

I hope you manage to get your recipes to work and I would love to try them .I once bought some pork and leek sausages that were low carb but they tasted of pork and sawdust :sick:
CAROL

 

[Durthic]

I hope you manage to get your recipes to work and I would love to try them .I once bought some pork and leek sausages that were low carb but they tasted of pork and sawdust :sick:
CAROL

That's not good to hear! I'm of the opinion that food should taste great regardless of dietary requirements.

I'm a traditionally trained butcher, and I pride myself on using the same methods that are time proven. After all, if it's worked for several hundred years, why change it?

The aim alongside everything else that I'm trying to do is to make sure that everything you need to get can be easily found at a local supermarket, and it's just to be used as a guideline, I'd fully encourage anyone to take a recipe and have a play around with it and make it their own.

As for what you said about Black farmer, I'd be interested to see what the recipe is. I don't claim to know it all, which is what I love about anything - you can always learn more or find a new technique that you never thought of using before!

 

[Andy12345]

the coolest thing is meat (unless vegetarian) is good for diabetics :thumbup: id love to get a hold of your recipes, you could maybe sell them once perfected there are plenty of us about, i dont make my own sausages, i wouldnt know where to start so i have the black farmers but dont like them as much as richmond so it would be nice to try others, i do make my own burgers as its so easy, mince meat, an egg, worcester sauce, garlic, salt and lots of black pepper does the trick :thumbup: but im sure you would do a much better job than me, il look forward to hearing your progress, and id also like to be adopted please

best of luck

 

[Durthic]

It just comes down to how often you do something with regards to how good you get at it. I typically make around 15Kg of sausages a day, so you get the hang of it pretty quickly.

As for burgers, they are actually not too far away from a sausage believe it or not. I typically make my burgers from 95VL (or 95% visual lean) mince, salt, pepper, paprika and some breadcrumbs and they are usually lovely!

I think the main thing that makes a butchers product typically different from home made is the level of understanding of the meat itself. For example, when you work meat, it releases a protein called Myosin. This is essentially the meat equivalent of what gluten is in baking, it is a binding agent. Obviously, the more the meat is worked, the more of this protein is released. The secret is to work the meat to release the right amount of this protein in order to bind the product together.

A good example of this is when you take some mince and work it with your hands, you notice it starts going sticky. This is the Myosin protein coming out of the meat. That protein then binds onto the filler used, in a "normal" sense, this is rusk or breadcrumbs and the seasoning.

Also letting the meat rest for a while after making burgers for example, allows the product to firm up and in a basic sense, allows the glue to dry. This also has the added benefit of allowing any filler to absorb any available water and fats (which also help to retain flavour and improve mouth feel), and thus reduces shrinkage and fat leakage when cooking.

As for sausages, aside from the expense of getting a mincer and a stuffer (with all the casings, be it natural casings or man made collagen casings), the hardest part of making them is filling the casings themselves. The best advice I can give there is simply practice! Also, getting quality sausages and gently pinching them to get a feeling for their tension is a great way to know when you have the right level of fill.

If you'd like, I can put together a guide of sorts to give you a butchers insight into how I at least do things (since most butchers have their own way of doing things)

 

[carty]

I found that very interesting about the fillers and fat leakage I notice that when I cook my burgers they tend to lose fat but I wouldnt want to use rusk or breadcrumbs because of the carb content and I cant think of anything that would do the same job without adding carbs
CAROL

 

[douglas99]

Quinoa, or bulgar wheat aren't bad for my bs.

 

[Musora]

Hi. I'm a type 2 gluten intolerant and occasionally make sausagemeat as a treat - particularly at this time of year! I started off using the recipes in the River Cottage Cookbook - and people have really enjoyed them. He lists rice flour, fine oatmeal, fine white breadcrumbs and organic baby cereal as rusk possibilities - but I've always used oatcakes just crumbled into the mix and love the flavour it produces! 50g per kilo of meat. I used to make it in the processor (a bit messy) but now use a hand mincer - much easier!

30g of carbs per kilo - 3g per 100g serving. Plain or herbs sausages not much more carbohydrate - the rest is up to you!

Delicious!

Looking forward to seeing your recipes too!

 

[Tigerkitty1950]

Hi everyone!

As the subject suggests, I need your help with some food related questions.

My father has recently been diagnosed with T2 diabetes, and after looking through foods that he can and can't have, I decided to see if there was anything that I can do to help him out.

I am a butcher by trade, and as such, I want to see if there's a way that I can put my trade skills to use in order to help him continue to enjoy some of the foods that he has enjoyed prior to being diagnosed.

From what I have read up on diabetes and safe foods (and it is an information overload for me, so I doff my cap to each and every one of you!), I have decided to start out by trying to formulate a sausage recipe that has the best possible taste, yet made using only natural, safe ingredients with the lowest possible glycemic index, and also with attributes that best lend themselves to keeping a handle on everything diabetes related.

Now, we tend to live on a low sodium diet anyway, so I'll be trying to keep salt down to a minimum, as well as fat content. the thing I have been struggling with is what to replace the rusk with. Since rusk is not the best thing for diabetes, I was considering things like oatmeal (from what I've read it's high in protein, and has a very low GI, and also helps to stabilise blood sugar levels.), or even pea protein. I've managed to establish that whole grain breads are good for diabetes, so there is that, although talking with yourselves will help me get confirmation on that.

From there, I'll be planning things outside of sausages, things like burgers (which we don't eat often at all, but thought a diabetes friendly burger would be good for an occasional reward for doing well with diet, etc.), meatballs, and so on, but I thought it best to start small and build from there.

I know there will be the inevitable "Just leave them out", however, the purpose of the rusk in a sausage is to retain moisture to give the sausage a succulent taste, and also give it a good mouth feel texture. This is why I am trying to find an alternative to rusk.

Thanks in advance for your help, and I hope you understand what I'm getting at!

, , , , , ,
Did it occur to you that red meat might be better if avoided , just eaten occasionally , chicken, fish especially salmon , salads, not too many potatoes, and bread

 

[Durthic]

Hi everyone!

As the subject suggests, I need your help with some food related questions.

My father has recently been diagnosed with T2 diabetes, and after looking through foods that he can and can't have, I decided to see if there was anything that I can do to help him out.

I am a butcher by trade, and as such, I want to see if there's a way that I can put my trade skills to use in order to help him continue to enjoy some of the foods that he has enjoyed prior to being diagnosed.

From what I have read up on diabetes and safe foods (and it is an information overload for me, so I doff my cap to each and every one of you!), I have decided to start out by trying to formulate a sausage recipe that has the best possible taste, yet made using only natural, safe ingredients with the lowest possible glycemic index, and also with attributes that best lend themselves to keeping a handle on everything diabetes related.

Now, we tend to live on a low sodium diet anyway, so I'll be trying to keep salt down to a minimum, as well as fat content. the thing I have been struggling with is what to replace the rusk with. Since rusk is not the best thing for diabetes, I was considering things like oatmeal (from what I've read it's high in protein, and has a very low GI, and also helps to stabilise blood sugar levels.), or even pea protein. I've managed to establish that whole grain breads are good for diabetes, so there is that, although talking with yourselves will help me get confirmation on that.

From there, I'll be planning things outside of sausages, things like burgers (which we don't eat often at all, but thought a diabetes friendly burger would be good for an occasional reward for doing well with diet, etc.), meatballs, and so on, but I thought it best to start small and build from there.

I know there will be the inevitable "Just leave them out", however, the purpose of the rusk in a sausage is to retain moisture to give the sausage a succulent taste, and also give it a good mouth feel texture. This is why I am trying to find an alternative to rusk.

Thanks in advance for your help, and I hope you understand what I'm getting at!

, , , , , ,
Did it occur to you that red meat might be better if avoided , just eaten occasionally , chicken, fish especially salmon , salads, not too many potatoes, and bread

If you mean in relation to the widely publicised case of "red meat increases the risk of diabetes", then yes, red meat CAN be an increased risk in diabetes, however, these are only primarily in reference to processed meats and deli meats.

Now, one could argue that a sausage is a processed food, you would be correct in principle. However (again), this is a view taken from modern industry production levels where chemical additives are added in order to increase the shelf life and the appearance of food to make it more attractive to the customers.

To give you a good example of what I mean, here is the ingredients list of Richmond's pork sausages:

Pork (42%)
Water
Pork Fat (10%)
Rusk (Wheat)
Potato Starch
Soya Protein Concentrate.
Ingredients less than 2%: Salt, Flavourings, Stabilisers: Diphosphates, Guar Gum; Antioxidants: E300 & E307; Preservative: Sodium Metabisulphate, Colour: Cochineal.

Now, let's analyze what is really in there.

Potato Starch (flour), is typically used as a rusk replacement by some sausage makers. So they have put both rusk AND flour in there to smooth out the texture of the sausage, nothing wrong with that, but it is also being used as I mentioned earlier to trap water, which as you can see is the second highest quantity in use, which isn't so good as I'm sure you want quality meat being the key ingredient at a value of higher than 42%.

Soya Protein concentrate: Used in Smoked or Cooked Sausages. Binds the fat and meat for a smoother consistency. Cuts shrinkage in the smokehouse by improving moisture retention. Contains 7 times more protein than meat does. If you're going to make smoked or cooked sausage or lunchmeats, this item is a must.

Now for the sub 2% ingredients as they are really known:

● E450 – You wouldn’t expect sausages to contain added water but these low-meat (42%) sausages are practically dripping with it. The water is held in place by E450, a chemical which ‘solidifies’ the mixture

● E412 – an emulsifier which helps to hold fat and water together (the meat in these sausages is almost half fat); ● E300 and E307 - antioxidant vitamins which stop the fat content turning rancid. This gives the product a long shelf life before it becomes unpalatable;

● E223 – a sulphite preservative which keeps the sausages safe to eat and prolongs their shelf life. Some people find that sulphites provoke shortness of breath and asthma;

● E128 – to disguise the low meat content these sausages have
been coloured with a synthetic chemical Azo Dye called Red 2G.

Now, let's compare this to one of my recipes for a pork breakfast sausage I'm in the process of adapting to work for a diabetic (not yet complete, so please if you use this recipe, you do so at your own risk for now!):

700g Pork Shoulder
300g Pork Belly
1/4 teaspoon Sage
1 teaspoon Rosemary
1/2 teaspoon White Pepper
4g Salt
51ml Iced Water

As you can see, no extra additives, no extra preservatives, just a plain simple, honest sausage recipe that is focused on flavour over shelf life (they can be frozen after all).

Even then, you could actually substitute the pork for a mixture of turkey breast meat and turkey leg meat, tweak the seasonings to taste, possibly add in about 50-80g of oatmeal to work on the texture, and hey presto!

So overall, Yes, there are concerns with red meat causing an increased risk of diabetes, and also significant effects for people who do suffer diabetes, but learning exactly what goes into your food will help you go a long way as you no doubt already know yourself. In essence though, the way I work as a butcher is this: If you can't pronounce or know exactly what is in the food you are going to buy, It shouldn't really be in your food unless there is a very good reason (i.e. it is used in the curing process for the likes of bacon for example).

In response to your other meat choices, I fully intend to develop a full range of foods from Beef, Pork, Lamb, Turkey, Chicken, and as many other types of food I can think of, however as a butcher, I will be starting where I already know and working out from there, but in complete honesty, they are all great alternatives that you suggested too! Also, my intention is to simply make these available for people to make themselves, and as such it would be down to them to regulate their dietary requirements. They know themselves best, so I don't intend to say "You must eat what I have made because I say so!" I simply want to develop something to benefit my father first, but in the same vein, benefit anyone who is interested in what I am doing as a good way to break away from the mass produced foods you get in supermarkets these days. It's to give them more control and more say on what goes into the food they eat, rather than what they are forced to eat.

 

[phoenix]

Hi,
I live in France, the local sausages have no rusk or other fillers. A Toulouse sausage comprises ' gras et de maigre de porc, de sel et de poivre.' ie fat and lean pork, salt and pepper http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saucisse_de_Toulouse
So it's just like your recipe .
However, and I think it may be something to so with what you are used to because I find them hard, and quite unpleasant. I'm fine with the high percentage pork sausage from the UK so there must be a difference. (maybe it's coarser chopped)

 

[Andy12345]

Hi everyone!

As the subject suggests, I need your help with some food related questions.

My father has recently been diagnosed with T2 diabetes, and after looking through foods that he can and can't have, I decided to see if there was anything that I can do to help him out.

I am a butcher by trade, and as such, I want to see if there's a way that I can put my trade skills to use in order to help him continue to enjoy some of the foods that he has enjoyed prior to being diagnosed.

From what I have read up on diabetes and safe foods (and it is an information overload for me, so I doff my cap to each and every one of you!), I have decided to start out by trying to formulate a sausage recipe that has the best possible taste, yet made using only natural, safe ingredients with the lowest possible glycemic index, and also with attributes that best lend themselves to keeping a handle on everything diabetes related.

Now, we tend to live on a low sodium diet anyway, so I'll be trying to keep salt down to a minimum, as well as fat content. the thing I have been struggling with is what to replace the rusk with. Since rusk is not the best thing for diabetes, I was considering things like oatmeal (from what I've read it's high in protein, and has a very low GI, and also helps to stabilise blood sugar levels.), or even pea protein. I've managed to establish that whole grain breads are good for diabetes, so there is that, although talking with yourselves will help me get confirmation on that.

From there, I'll be planning things outside of sausages, things like burgers (which we don't eat often at all, but thought a diabetes friendly burger would be good for an occasional reward for doing well with diet, etc.), meatballs, and so on, but I thought it best to start small and build from there.

I know there will be the inevitable "Just leave them out", however, the purpose of the rusk in a sausage is to retain moisture to give the sausage a succulent taste, and also give it a good mouth feel texture. This is why I am trying to find an alternative to rusk.

Thanks in advance for your help, and I hope you understand what I'm getting at!

, , , , , ,
Did it occur to you that red meat might be better if avoided , just eaten occasionally , chicken, fish especially salmon , salads, not too many potatoes, and bread

If you mean in relation to the widely publicised case of "red meat increases the risk of diabetes", then yes, red meat CAN be an increased risk in diabetes, however, these are only primarily in reference to processed meats and deli meats.

Now, one could argue that a sausage is a processed food, you would be correct in principle. However (again), this is a view taken from modern industry production levels where chemical additives are added in order to increase the shelf life and the appearance of food to make it more attractive to the customers.

To give you a good example of what I mean, here is the ingredients list of Richmond's pork sausages:

Pork (42%)
Water
Pork Fat (10%)
Rusk (Wheat)
Potato Starch
Soya Protein Concentrate.
Ingredients less than 2%: Salt, Flavourings, Stabilisers: Diphosphates, Guar Gum; Antioxidants: E300 & E307; Preservative: Sodium Metabisulphate, Colour: Cochineal.

Now, let's analyze what is really in there.

Potato Starch (flour), is typically used as a rusk replacement by some sausage makers. So they have put both rusk AND flour in there to smooth out the texture of the sausage, nothing wrong with that, but it is also being used as I mentioned earlier to trap water, which as you can see is the second highest quantity in use, which isn't so good as I'm sure you want quality meat being the key ingredient at a value of higher than 42%.

Soya Protein concentrate: Used in Smoked or Cooked Sausages. Binds the fat and meat for a smoother consistency. Cuts shrinkage in the smokehouse by improving moisture retention. Contains 7 times more protein than meat does. If you're going to make smoked or cooked sausage or lunchmeats, this item is a must.

Now for the sub 2% ingredients as they are really known:

● E450 – You wouldn’t expect sausages to contain added water but these low-meat (42%) sausages are practically dripping with it. The water is held in place by E450, a chemical which ‘solidifies’ the mixture

● E412 – an emulsifier which helps to hold fat and water together (the meat in these sausages is almost half fat); ● E300 and E307 - antioxidant vitamins which stop the fat content turning rancid. This gives the product a long shelf life before it becomes unpalatable;

● E223 – a sulphite preservative which keeps the sausages safe to eat and prolongs their shelf life. Some people find that sulphites provoke shortness of breath and asthma;

● E128 – to disguise the low meat content these sausages have
been coloured with a synthetic chemical Azo Dye called Red 2G.

Now, let's compare this to one of my recipes for a pork breakfast sausage I'm in the process of adapting to work for a diabetic (not yet complete, so please if you use this recipe, you do so at your own risk for now!):

700g Pork Shoulder
300g Pork Belly
1/4 teaspoon Sage
1 teaspoon Rosemary
1/2 teaspoon White Pepper
4g Salt
51ml Iced Water

As you can see, no extra additives, no extra preservatives, just a plain simple, honest sausage recipe that is focused on flavour over shelf life (they can be frozen after all).

Even then, you could actually substitute the pork for a mixture of turkey breast meat and turkey leg meat, tweak the seasonings to taste, possibly add in about 50-80g of oatmeal to work on the texture, and hey presto!

So overall, Yes, there are concerns with red meat causing an increased risk of diabetes, and also significant effects for people who do suffer diabetes, but learning exactly what goes into your food will help you go a long way as you no doubt already know yourself. In essence though, the way I work as a butcher is this: If you can't pronounce or know exactly what is in the food you are going to buy, It shouldn't really be in your food unless there is a very good reason (i.e. it is used in the curing process for the likes of bacon for example).

In response to your other meat choices, I fully intend to develop a full range of foods from Beef, Pork, Lamb, Turkey, Chicken, and as many other types of food I can think of, however as a butcher, I will be starting where I already know and working out from there, but in complete honesty, they are all great alternatives that you suggested too! Also, my intention is to simply make these available for people to make themselves, and as such it would be down to them to regulate their dietary requirements. They know themselves best, so I don't intend to say "You must eat what I have made because I say so!" I simply want to develop something to benefit my father first, but in the same vein, benefit anyone who is interested in what I am doing as a good way to break away from the mass produced foods you get in supermarkets these days. It's to give them more control and more say on what goes into the food they eat, rather than what they are forced to eat.

Awesome :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[man50]

so can you have sausages or not ?

 

[Durthic]

Hi,
I live in France, the local sausages have no rusk or other fillers. A Toulouse sausage comprises ' gras et de maigre de porc, de sel et de poivre.' ie fat and lean pork, salt and pepper http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saucisse_de_Toulouse
So it's just like your recipe .
However, and I think it may be something to do with what you are used to because I find them hard, and quite unpleasant. I'm fine with the high percentage pork sausage from the UK so there must be a difference. (maybe it's coarser chopped)

Having no filler is common in continental butchery, however In British butchery, I believe they devised using filler as a means to make their meat go further, and to differentiate their product from their continental cousins. There's nothing wrong with having filler or not, but I find it helps sausages retain moisture and flavour as well as giving it a pleasant mouth feel.

The recipe I put in for the comparison, and typically we don't have filler in breakfast sausages since it's in a dish with so many different flavours. That one is best used in an English breakfast.

so can you have sausages or not ?

Yes, however, after yet more reading up on things, you would simply need to keep an eye on your blood sugar levels. If it puts them up too far (which I'm trying to develop sausages that will not do this), then I would advise leaving them for a special treat every now and then. Everyone is different, so I would say try some and see how your body reacts to it. Your diet will be different from other peoples.

My sister came up with a good idea, which was to send batches of my final development recipes off to a local research centre to be tested and get the nutritional information on them, so I'll be investigating the cost of that per batch but I'm so far up to 12 sausage recipes, about 60 different burger recipes (which can also be used as meatballs since they are the same thing believe it or not!), I did have the idea of doing other things, but things like beef olives are already fairly diabetic friendly, although I think I could get the recipe right to bring things to watch down even further without sacrificing the taste.

I've been trying to come up with as much as I can !

 

[Andy12345]

this is great work mate :thumbup: