Re: Saturated Fat is Innocent?

[Anonymous]

This is worthy of a discussion so moved to discussion forum.
===========================================================================================
Saturated Fat is Innocent?

Postby raydavies
It looks as though the high fat low carb proponents are vindicated!

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news ... 94941.html

Ray

 

[ally5555]

mmm - you probably have to put it into perspective! So saturated fat in crisps andd chips and junk etc is ok - somehow I do not think so. !!!
The actual amount most people get from meat etc is not that great - but it sends out the wrong message I think - in case you wonder I am a dietitian!

 

[cugila]

Overall, Krauss and his colleagues found, there was no difference in the risks of heart disease and stroke between people with the lowest and highest intakes of saturated fat.

I read this bit of the article......seems to me there is no vindication of anything. This clearly says there is NO difference between those who ate less fat or more fat, so maybe it's another factor altogether. The carbs consumed perhaps ?

I use reduced carbs and low fats and had excellent results up until a recent illness which decimated my Bg control. So I think I will stick with what I know works for me, low fat, reduced carbs.

 

[graham64]

mmm - you probably have to put it into perspective! So saturated fat in crisps andd chips and junk etc is ok - somehow I do not think so. !!!
The actual amount most people get from meat etc is not that great - but it sends out the wrong message I think - in case you wonder I am a dietitian!

Hi Ally, actually the saturated fat in chips is relatively low compared with other fast foods, pity about the carb content though :cry:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... gWZFB1DQXw

Cheers
Graham

 

[ally5555]

Graham - this is the problem with this type of research it is not looking at the whole diet - if people are consuming alot of fat from a wide variety of food then they are consuning vast quantities of saturated fat which is probably the problem. I love the way you find the links - the sea fish bureau will bend the truth like the sugar bureau.

In practice I see people eating massive amounts of fat - so that has to have an effect on obesity levels, leading to type 2 and other health problems - you think you eat alot of fat I know but some of my pts consume 4-5 times more than you and alot as saturated.

I do agrre that the FSA is targetting the wrong food and sending out mixed messages!

 

[hanadr]

Ally
I too eat a fair amount of fat, from things like cream( which I add to my cooking as well as my coffee) and cheese. I also eat salami. My blood chemistry is excellent.
I DO NOT eat crisps or pizza or take aways. ( too much carb! :x )
I also find that whenever I get really fed up with my stalled weight loss, A couple of days of Atkins Fat Fast, will shift a pound.
I am aware that the high quality of my diet, which is very nutritious, varied and fairly high in saturated fat, although small portions of everything, contributes to my general GOOD health.
Also my skin, which has been a dryness problem all my life, has improved too. I no longer have a snowstorm whenever I undress.
All my adulthood, I followed a low fat/ high carb diet, with PLENTY of fruit and veggies. I had skin problems, hair problems, weight problems and developed T2. :twisted:

 

[raydavies]

If there here is "NO difference between those who ate less fat or more fat" this clearly indicates that saturated fat is not a problem. Carbs though seem to be skulking about wearing a guilty look!

Re: "if people are consuming a lot of fat from a wide variety of food then they are consuming vast quantities of saturated fat which is probably the problem." What problem, the survey found no difference!

So far as meat is concerned. As someone on a low carb, high fat diet, I find sourcing meat with a decent high fat content is not easy. This probably accounts for the low uptake of fat from meat.

I agree that a high intake of the type of fat found in crisps etc. is unhealthy. But, the odd treat is surely harmless.

Regarding the statement "in case you wonder I am a dietitian!". I was recently, as part of the NHS diabetes advice system, present at a group discussion and lecture on diet. I was told my belly fat could be eliminated by following her dietary advice. Which was the usual cut fat, cut sugar and eat plenty of carbs.

As this particular dietician was quite seriously overweight, I was reminded of the Oscar Wilde comment - "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves."

Of course, I'd love to see more research on this matter. Don't forget, those that passionately treat saturated fat as the villain are those same people whose vilification of eggs lead to the addition of "Humble pie" to their diet when eggs were found to be innocent!

Ray

 

[hanadr]

Ray
although I am a very polite,gentle and considerate person, An overweight dietician would have been irresistable. I would have had to say something to her about the benefits of her knowledge.
I'm impressed by your restraint.
Hana

 

[Synonym]

Hi Ray,

Loved the Oscar Wilde quote!

Here is one from Robert Burns,

“Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel's as others see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us, And foolish notion”

Nuff said!

 

[cugila]

Of course, I'd love to see more research on this matter. Don't forget, those that passionately treat saturated fat as the villain are those same people whose vilification of eggs lead to the addition of "Humble pie" to their diet when eggs were found to be innocent!

Ray

Humble Pie........delicious. You should try it, keep the portion sizes down, it is scrumptious.

Prep Time 1 hour
A Humble Pie recipe which resembles a pork pie.

Ingredients
•600 g Fresh pork streaky rashers
•454 g Sausage meat
•1 Medium onion, finely diced
•110 g Leeks, finely chopped
•225 g Tart apples, peeled , cored and roughly chopped
•1 tsp Sage, chopped
•1 tsp Thyme, chopped
•1⁄4 tsp English mustard powder
•1⁄4 tsp Ground mace
•11 g Satchet of gelatine powder
•450 g plain flour
•110 g Lard
•1 Medium Egg
•275 ml Water

Instructions
For pastry place water, salt and lard in a large pan and bring to the boil. When the water is boiling and the lard has melted remove the pan from the heat. Mix in the flour, stir until well combined and allow to cool. Preheat the oven to 170 degrees celcius.
For the pie: remove the rind from the bacon and cut into cubes.
Place in bowl with the rest of the meat, the onion, the leaks, the apples, the sage, the thyme, the mustard and the mace. Season well. Mix until combined.
Once pastry has cooled roll out 2/3 of the dough on a floured surface.
Carefully line the tin making sure there were no cracks allow the excess pastry to fall over the sides.
Fill the case with the port mixture.
Roll out the rest of the pastry and use this to top the pie, brush the edges with water to seal.
Trim off any excess pastry and pinch the edges together.
Glaze with a beaten egg and using a skewer make a hole in the top of the pie.
Place on a baking try and place in the middle of the oven for 30 minutes.
Reduce to 150 degrees and cook for a further 3 hours.
Remove from the oven and allow to cool.
When the pie is completely cool, dissolve the gelatine and using a funnel pour the gelatin through the hole in the top of the pie.
Cover the pie with tin foil and chill for at least 2 hours to allow gelatine to set.


Definitely not low carbs.......

 

[Patch]

Ken - why did you post that recipe? It's like posting a recipe for a Gin and Tonic in an alcoholics forum!

 

[cugila]

:twisted:

 

[phoenix]

I don't think that the writers of the original paper actually said that saturated fat was innocent. I've already quoted this elsewhere but this is what the actual paper says in conclusion

In conclusion, our meta-analysis showed that there is insufficientevidence from prospective epidemiologic studies to conclude that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased
risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. However, the available data were not adequate for determining whether there are CHD or stroke associations with saturated fat in specific age and sex subgroups.
Furthermore, there was insufficient statistical power for this meta-analysis to assess the effects on CVD risk of replacing specific amounts of saturated fat with either polyunsaturated fat
or carbohydrate. Finally, nutritional epidemiologic studies provide only one category of evidence for evaluating the relation of saturated fat intake to risk for CHD, stroke, and CVD.

The study also notes that intervention studies, notably the Finnish study and the VA study have found protective effects of reducing saturated fat. They suggest that this might be dependent on a significant increase in polyunsaturated fat in the diet . As to carbs they suggest replacing sat fats with polyunsat fats may be more important than replacing them with carbs and that the type of carbohydrate(ie, a high or low glycemic index) that replaces saturated fat is also likely to be important in influencing dietary effects on CVD risk but there wasn't sufficient data in the studies they looked at to examine the issue.

As for the Fish and chips study... percentages are very clever at disguising reality.
If you use the figures given in the paper for an average portion size (256g fish, 251g chips) a portion of Fish and Chips, even if it contains less saturated fat than the official tables suggest still has 47.9 g of fat, of which 23.5g are saturated .
( and subjectively , I'm know that my parent's local chippy serves far bigger portions, certainly as compared with my weighed 200g of oven chips ..OH and father share a portion and still thow some away)

I doubt that many people on here, including Hana with her small portions eat almost 50g of fat in one meal, nor would I eat such a large amount of carbs (or calories) and fat together (or with no vegetables). In one way or another most of us have learned to be careful with our diet. For people without diabetes an occasional splurge is probably not a problem. Where I see the problem is for example with teenagers buying their lunch day after day from the chip shop.

I think this dichotomy with one element demonised (whichever it is) is false , this was suggested in link given in the original post.

Perhaps more importantly, though, Eckel said that the thinking on diet and heart health is moving away from a focus on single nutrients and toward "dietary patterns."

A number of studies have linked the so-called Western diet to greater heart disease risks; that diet pattern is defined as one high in red and processed meats and saturated fats -- but also high in sweets and other refined carbohydrates like white bread.

On the other hand, diets described as Mediterranean or "prudent" -- generally high in fruits and vegetables, whole grains, fish, unsaturated fats from vegetable oil -- may help lower the risk of heart disease and stroke.

 

[IanD]

In practice I see people eating massive amounts of fat - so that has to have an effect on obesity levels, leading to type 2 and other health problems - you think you eat alot of fat I know but some of my pts consume 4-5 times more than you and alot as saturated.

I do agrre that the FSA is targetting the wrong food and sending out mixed messages!

Ally, in what form are they eating their massive amounts of fat? They're obviously not eating lumps of lard like sweeties. :evil:

Let me guess - chips; crisps; chocolate; bread spread with butter/marge, peanut butter, choc spread, etc; pizzas; Indian savouries; even cheese is normally bread & cheese, or with biscuits spread with butter, or pizza, or cottage pie; ALL fat in association with carbs.

ALL include fat in an UNNATURAL association with carbs.

How much more sensible to stop worrying about fat & start worrying about the carbs.

One further question to a professional: Have you seen a rise or fall in the obesity of your customers as a result of the high carb/low sat fat recommendations?

 

[CarbsRok]

y

 

[ally5555]

Thank you carbs rok !

I am off to clinic now - will have a look later although will be suprised if anyone turns up - its snowing and its quite heavy!

 

[phoenix]

ALL include fat in an UNNATURAL association with carbs

I don't really understand the idea of an 'unnatural' association of fat and carbohydrates. I suppose you don't find them in nature. What about eggs and bacon, steak and vegetables, how about 'bread' made from soya flour, ground almonds , sodium bicarbonate and potassium hydrogen tartrate(cream of tartar), with or without butter, would you call those natural associations?

Fat and carbs are an ancient association. If you are living a lifestyle that requires high energy then this association of fat and carbs is ideal, all the peasant dishes in my part of France contain just such an association, potatoes and cheese as in aligot and tarteflette (used to be bread in those recipes before potatoess were acccepted as food) or how about fatty bacon, or duck or sausage with beans,? How about 2 Samuel 17, 28-30 ? The unnatural association in that culture would have been considered as dairy and meat. The problem is not any particular association but (as with fish and chips), the amount of it we eat, as compared to our activity levels.
edited for grammar

 

[Synonym]

How ever does a discussion, perfectly reasonably expressed, suddenly become seen as ‘baiting’? :shock:

I am very interested in this discussion and I think Ally is too or she would not have posted on here. She seems perfectly able to hold her end up and can give a good account of her arguments without anyone stepping in to either ‘protect’ her or prevent her doing so.

We need to raise our sights from the personal to see the discussion for what it is or we will all be afraid to say anything at all and then there will be no discussions!

Carbs.Rok, I note that in your highlighted extract from IanD’s post that he wrote “THE high carb/low sat fat recommendations?” and did not say “YOUR” so his comment was not aimed at Ally personally.
Apart from that I don’t suppose that Ally, as a dietician, sees only patients who have come to her exclusively but am sure that she will see people who have been to other dieticians who may or may not have given the same advice as she does. The question is perfectly valid in either case and I am probably not the only one interested in the answer.

Also valid is the point about un-natural association of fat with carbs since the items Ian mentioned are MADE with loads of added fats, and often sugars too, and are things which pile on the weight.

I was intrigued by the biblical reference given by Phoenix so I looked it up but saw that only staples are mentioned. So it is clearly what we do with the staples and how we use things which are really important and what then affects our bodies.

As for natural fat there is not much better than crisp, streaky bacon or a lovely marbled steak; they are 'no carb' into the bargain which makes it helpful to those of us who can’t tolerate much in the way of carbs. 8)

 

[IanD]

One further question to a professional: Have you seen a rise or fall in the obesity of your customers as a result of the high carb/low sat fat recommendations?

Where do you get the idea from that Ally encourages high carb :?:
I have never seen Ally state this. She has alway drummed into people who care to listen that moderation of carb intake is the best option. With an all round ballanced diet. Also that each person is an individual, thus each person needs to be individually assessed.

Is it not time to stop this very childish Ally baiting game?

CR, I have "known" Ally for a long time, & I know she too is concerned at the official DUK high carb advice. When she analysed my diet, she was concerned at my LOW fat consumption.

She expressed horror at what people eat, & the NHS has a campaign to improve all our diets by increasing the complex carbs/junk food ratio.

I asked a question. I hoped for an answer, NOT a contentious comment.

 

[Zoroaster]

What I'd like to know is what Ian thinks is a high carb diet and what Ally thinks is a high carb diet and let's compare the two.

Ian oversimplifies the DUK advice, which is a really good way of making a point - whether it's the right one or not is another question.

I remember seeing a post from Ally saying that she recommended moderating carb intake - I can't be ar*ed to provide a link. But I suspect she follows the general recommendation from the British Dietetic Association for those affected by diabetes to change both the quantity AND quality of carbohydrate intake.

To be honest I'm sick and tired of the syllogism:

All carbs convert to sugar
Sugar is bad for diabetics
Therefore all carbs are bad

Those of us who use carbs efficiently do very well thank you. The advice from the DUK is generic, just as the advice from the BDA is, it is only when one gets a personalised advice that doesn't work can one truly complain.

The question mark at the end of the thread title may be apposite. Sat fat isn't innocent, but then neither are carbs and a balance must be achieved.