Statins vs. Oddbins

[fergus]

Most of us are probably aware of the significantly increased risks of coronary heart disease which come for free along with the diagnosis of diabetes. Almost entirely due to the increased blood sugar and insulin levels in all liklihood, but a lucrative business if you're a statin manufacturer of course.
In their defence, there does appear to be a slightly reduced risk of heart attacks for males who have already suffered such a thing. No such advantage for women unfortunately, and an increased risk of death from other causes for all. Certainly no evidence of an increased life expectancy for anyone.
So, what are our options?
Well, perhaps JAMA has the answer....

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/282/3/239

The CVD mortality risk for older onset diabetics who had never drank alcohol, was 43.9 per 1000 person-years, for those who drank more than 14 grams a day (more than one drink a day), the rate was 10.0 per 1000 person-years.
Beat that, Simvastatin!

Cheers everyone,

fergus

 

[graham64]

I'll drink to that cheers Fergus

 

[Trinkwasser]

Yes there's some research I won't bother arguing about <G>

 

[increasingly cynical]

The 'alcohol' (well, red wine anyway and/or other low sugar alcs) thing is interesting. Anyone got any other comments? If you look at outcomes for Lantus, alcohol taken with a meal outperforms the impact of Lantus... similarly against oral meds (all of them)... DK outcomes compared to other insulins and since I am unsure of the mechanisms of what goes wrong in Type 1, I wouldn't want to comment. Yet, I saw a comment on the forum the other day (sorry, can't remember where) by someone who had seen their BG go down from 12 to 7 after drinking alcohol and was panicked by this and reached the conclusion they should give up drinking.... I also saw a 'single case study' by a medic in which they cited a case where a patient had controlled their BGs very well by a routine of lots of exercise and drinking one glass of red wine with meals... the medic commented happily that he had been able to persaude the patient to take insulin and give up the exercise and wine in case it then took his BG down too low... what?! Is this Alice in Wonderland for Diabetics?

 

[Trinkwasser]

The alcohol is processed preferentially by the liver, and while it's busy doing that it stops putting glucose back into the blood. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on many factors, it can keep your BG down if you don't want it going up after eating but it may cause a hypo if you actually need your BG topping up.

Beer and other drinks containing carbs can be harder to predict, I can do about a half of beer before the carbs start to outrun the alcohol

 

[increasingly cynical]

Hi Trinkwasser,

Low BGs are of course not a problem with 'diabetes' (by definition), they are a problem with the medication which is given for 'diabetes', so, in the 'native state' what is the argument for people with comparatively minor raised BGs not just taking a glass of red wine (or other non-carbohydrate loaded alcohol) instead of meds to keep BGs within acceptable levels? Similarly the alternative of taking exercise.... It seems insane to put someone on potentially harmful meds if a combination of exercise and sensible, moderate drinking (as per the case study) can achieve the same control (or better) over BGs? Am I missing something, or do people just feel more comfortable in some way with 'prescribed' meds even where non-medical options achieve the same or better in terms of outcome?

:?

 

[Fenster]

increasingly cynical

You have hit the nail on the head. The NHS can stick the med's and prescribe us two bottles of decent wine a day. It may rot our livers but the usual diabetic complications would be gone. :lol: And if not, would we care. :lol:

Fenster

 

[Trinkwasser]

Low BGs are of course not a problem with 'diabetes' (by definition), they are a problem with the medication which is given for 'diabetes'

:?

Er well not entirely, I can generate some decent lows entirely without medication (reactive hypoglycemia)

Other than that I don't disagree. Theoretical patients just want to be given a pill and allowed to continue eating garbage. A lot of us are far more proactive though, we work with all the tools we can find. Then we get told we're not eating enough carbs and our A1c is too low.

Definition of an acoholic: someone who drinks more than their doctor. So they might approve of the wine even if they can't prescribe it.

 

[increasingly cynical]

Really interesting replies! i wonder what proportion of (non-type 1 I would guess) diabetes could actually be controlled by relatively pleasant stuff like taking up a sport, drinking red wine with your meal, avoiding excess carbs... hmmm...

:wink:

 

[welshtony]

Well I'm experimenting with this. Purely in the interest of scientific research, of course.

But I'm getting a bit confused. And an incident last week did concern me enough to consider asking my DN for advice. But, on reflection, I decided to wait till my next appointment in about 10 days time.

I've always been a reasonably heavy (in the context of the units per week guidelines) drinker. Probably 40 units a week, mainly real ale but often a bottle of wine or so with a meal out. I don't drink much at home, and often go Tuesday-Thursday alcohol free. And I don't drink and drive.

Since my T2 diagnosis last August I seem to be managing to be both losing weight and keeping my BG readings at acceptable levels, without adjusting my alcohol intake. Changing too many things at once would have been impossible for me, I think. I've managed to drop bread, rice, wheat and chocolate from my diet without too many problems, but changing my social life too much would be even more depressing than the T2 diagnosis.

And I can't recall the last time I drank to the stage that I was incapable - before last Thursday night; when I was at a quiz night with some friends.

The scenario:
- I'm a T2, diagnosed last August, currently diet and exercise only, last Hba1c 6.2, have lost 30+ lbs since diagnosis; but still have BMI of 35. Meter readings generally seem OK, usually lower at night than in morning.
- I hadn't eaten all day, since breakfast (yes, I know; I usually have something like a small chicken kebab for lunch, but had to work through lunch that day).
- at the quiz, I probably had a bottle of wine before the food arrived, but the promised buffet turned out to be just some very light pastries, and only about 2 each.
- after another half bottle or so, I fell asleep! (I had also only had a couple of hours sleep in total over the previous 48 hours)
- on waking, a friend fed me a couple of cookies and I quickly became pretty alert (although I recognised that I was moderately alcohol impaired) and had no problems finding my way home from central London.
- I had no particular hangover the next morning, but I've always been reasonably lucky in that regard.

So did I have a hypo? Is that possible, if I'm not on any medication? :?:

 

[sugarless sue]

You had no food all day then alcohol/wine,this probably dropped your blood sugars and combined with feeling tired in a nice warm atmosphere you fell asleep. The carb boost from the pasties would have wakened you up again.You can feel hypo on diet only but then your liver kicks in and 'dumps' glucose to put up your blood sugar levels again so you will not lapse into a coma or anything like that.

 

[welshtony]

Thanks. That's what I thought may have happened, but it was unexpected (and embarrassing).

I'll have to learn to take a bit more care with my food intake.

 

[lilibet]

Well after my spectacular hangover yesterday where all i could manage was hob nobs for the whole day (trying to manage a hangover on mix regime -grim) I was hoping for a heart attack, to put me out of my misery!!!!!!!! :lol:

L x

 

[Trinkwasser]

Really interesting replies! i wonder what proportion of (non-type 1 I would guess) diabetes could actually be controlled by relatively pleasant stuff like taking up a sport, drinking red wine with your meal, avoiding excess carbs... hmmm...

:wink:

In my experience quite a lot. The key is catching it early before too much damage has occurred (in theory by the time you reach a Type 2 diagnosis half your beta cells have gone.)

I know a few people who have remained med free for anything from a decade to 25 years, the key being tight BG control which almost inevitably means low carb, and balancing that against the exertion (one is a major league bike rider) and the wine etc.

 

[welshtony]

Really interesting replies! i wonder what proportion of (non-type 1 I would guess) diabetes could actually be controlled by relatively pleasant stuff like taking up a sport, drinking red wine with your meal, avoiding excess carbs... hmmm...

:wink:

In my experience quite a lot. The key is catching it early before too much damage has occurred (in theory by the time you reach a Type 2 diagnosis half your beta cells have gone.)

I know a few people who have remained med free for anything from a decade to 25 years, the key being tight BG control which almost inevitably means low carb, and balancing that against the exertion (one is a major league bike rider) and the wine etc.

That certainly sounds encouraging news! Thanks.

 

[lindap]

I have decided to stop statins due to muscular pain which I had mentioned previously to GP but having none of it. I am so grateful to people on this site putting me back on track - No carbs! well most of the time, it is a miracle! my readings are what I need ie 4-7mmol and never hungry and feeling great THANKYOU It was all thoughts I had but after reading Dr Bernstein I have turned a corner and listened to my instincts.
Any newbies read these postings they are from people who have had experience and not health professionals who know nothing unfortunately.