1. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2022 »
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

T2 Diabetes remission success rate for Low Calorie diets?

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by pdmjoker, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    6,799
    Likes Received:
    3,743
    Trophy Points:
    198
    The main thing that Prof Taylor et al did with their work was to provide scientific proof and evidence that there is a direct and measurable link between Diabetic Insulin resistance, and NAFLD thus opening the door to better and more refined treatments becoming possible. As a secondary benefit IMHO, he provided the general populace with a viable tool for resetting their metabolism that can be almost universally applied and which is acceptable to the Establishment thus allowing immediate introduction.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    6,799
    Likes Received:
    3,743
    Trophy Points:
    198
  3. pdmjoker

    pdmjoker Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    360
    Trophy Points:
    123
    The low calorie meal replacement with 30 mins daily exercise?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    6,799
    Likes Received:
    3,743
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Exactly. If you look at what The Newcastle team Mission Statement declared was a goal - to find if there was a diet that could emulate the effects of Bariatric Surgery, which, at the time, was the only official cure for T2D and Obesity that the NHS had to offer at great expense and use of resources.

    At that time it was known that Bariatric Surgery (but only one variant of it) provided a 'permanent' solution, so that defined their Holy Grail quest, and it is why they got funding from NHS and DUK to explore the effect on the liver and pancreas in such detail. They did a great job in that and were surprised at the evidence they found so strongly on their first pass.

    DIRECT is a new initiative to provide the NHS with a turnkey solution. There was nothing in the ND diet that had not been done before for weight loss and that type of diet had already achieved NHS approval. It was just a vehicle which allowed them to control intake in a formal trial. It in itself is nothing new. What was new was the using of MRI Scanners to provide the evidence and the laboratory testings they carried out. The possibility of remission was actually a serendipitous moment, the icing on the cake, the hook to grab the public's attention.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. pdmjoker

    pdmjoker Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    360
    Trophy Points:
    123
    That's helpful, thank you. Sadly, I'm one of the people who cannot do 30 mins daily exercise, for health reasons, which is one reason why "Eat less, move more" wasn't effective for me... (and, yes, I got blamed for the failure! :))
     
    • Hug Hug x 2
  6. Tannith

    Tannith · BANNED

    Messages:
    1,230
    Likes Received:
    449
    Trophy Points:
    103
    It has to be a low calorie diet (suggested 800 cals). It certainly doesn't have to be meal replacements, though they were used in the trial for ease of comparing results. I did it with normal food and about 1000 cals per day. Taylor's diet does NOT recommend any exercise in the initial few months indeed he suggests that might be too much and could derail the diet. Some exercise is suggested but only for the maintenance phase.
    Edited to add. I didn't do ANY exercise in the initial or maintenance phases of the diet. Nor have I done any since.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    #46 Tannith, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:37 PM
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  7. pdmjoker

    pdmjoker Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    360
    Trophy Points:
    123
    In what sense does it have to be low calorie? Puzzled...
     
  8. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    6,799
    Likes Received:
    3,743
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Very Low Calorie (VLCD).
     
  9. pdmjoker

    pdmjoker Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    360
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Thank you. Yes, but why does it have to be? ie Do you mean 800kcal has to be (well, clearly) or for some practical reason? Why not a Low Carb? Am I being dim? :confused:
     
  10. loiphamp

    loiphamp Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    544
    Trophy Points:
    133
    30 mins walk that all you need
     
  11. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    6,799
    Likes Received:
    3,743
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Simple. The Establishment accepts and understands Low Calorie, It hates and loathes Low Carb, It would be dim to call the ND diet low carb in any way. We here can see that in practicality it treads the borderline of Low Carb, but shouting it from the rooftops will deter the investors from supporting it and close the door to a useful tool. There are reasons why it does not mention low carb or ketosis.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. Tannith

    Tannith · BANNED

    Messages:
    1,230
    Likes Received:
    449
    Trophy Points:
    103
    The principle of Newcastle diet is to reduce the fat clogging the pancreas which causes it to not work properly. Hence the low cal diet,as to get the fat off the pancreas you have to lose a lot of fat from elsewhere first, particularly from the liver, as fat loss cannot be selective. Once you have done the diet and got the fat off the pancreas it can work efficiently again, and you no longer have to do the low cal diet. But you DO have to make sure you don't eat excess calories and put the fat back on or you will undo your good work.After the Newcastle weight loss you have to eat a normal diet that does not cause weight gain.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    14,301
    Likes Received:
    8,228
    Trophy Points:
    298
    My understanding of "why low cal" was the initial studies were attempting to mimic bariatric surgery, which is almost certainly low cal - especially in the early days.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Informative Informative x 2
  14. pdmjoker

    pdmjoker Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    360
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Thanks! What I kind of guessed...
    Low Carb is v effective at burning off liver fat etc, which is why I questioned your assertion that low calorie was essential...
     
  15. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    6,799
    Likes Received:
    3,743
    Trophy Points:
    198
    You make a very assertive claim in your post which I am forced to question.
    "Low Carb is v effective at burning off liver fat etc,"
    Where is the scientific proof? What Prof Taylor was able to do with his funding was to develop a tool (MRI) that demonstrated the before and after conditions of the liver and pancreas that proved that his diet was removing NAFLD from these organs in vivo in other words in test subjects that were living before, during, and after the study ended. The evidence that LC diets do the same uses animal studies, and post mortem analysis to conjecture that humans gain the same effect. The proof is therefore weaker,

    The other thing I have noted is that human LC trials use modified Mediterranean diets which are open to introducing confounding variants and are not tightly controlled. In the VLC trials the use of meal replacements produced less chance of variables and just as importantly from a scientific point of view, permitted repeatable experimentation to be performed if necessary. Yes I suspect that a similar trial could be run to demonstrate the same efficacy in an LC trial, if you can get the funding and a standardised LC meal plan that the nutritionists will accept. Till that day, we remain in a backwater.

    And, yes, I did use LCHF myself and for short period was able to claim reversal. But it did not last, and I am back on low level medication.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. zand

    zand Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    10,474
    Likes Received:
    16,353
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Whilst not as good as a tool as MRI, surely the ALT liver count gives us an idea as to whether Low Carb works to remove fat from the liver too? With low carb an improved ALT count can happen without weight loss. If this blood test isn't a scientific guide as to how fatty the liver is, then how come doctors use it to help diagnose fatty liver?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    6,799
    Likes Received:
    3,743
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Looking at how NAFLD is normally diagnosed it is either by imaging or biopsy. ALT does not seem to figure in the diagnosis. I think ALT gives an indication of something wrong, but is not specific. ALT just indicates some liver damage is occurring.
     
  18. zand

    zand Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    10,474
    Likes Received:
    16,353
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Well my GP read my ALT count and felt my liver and said 'You have fatty liver' so I assumed he was right.
     
  19. pdmjoker

    pdmjoker Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    360
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Does this constitute proof? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21367948/
    It says
    Conclusions: Two weeks of dietary intervention (≈4.3% weight loss) reduced hepatic triglycerides by ≈42% in subjects with NAFLD; however, reductions were significantly greater with dietary carbohydrate restriction than with calorie restriction. This may have been due, in part, to enhanced hepatic and whole-body oxidation. ​
     
  20. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,238
    Likes Received:
    8,888
    Trophy Points:
    178
    I would be cautious and not take it too far. Diabetes seems to have a memory. I have added butternut squash and carrots from the start of my remission about 5 years ago. Over the last 6 months beetroot has also been added at the same time as celery - 2 HbA1c's in a row have been essentially the same. I will not ever add the grains, potatoes or processed foods.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook