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T2 for more than 10 years have been able to become treatment free and be in remission

Discussion in 'Diabetes Medication and Drugs' started by Mrs_A_Wrinkly, Jun 14, 2020.

  1. Mrs_A_Wrinkly

    Mrs_A_Wrinkly Type 2 · Active Member

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    I have been given the name of Professor Taylor at NewcastleUni as someone who is researching this. Although small scale (my understanding) the team have seen this group of people (diabetics T2 for more than 10 years)go into remission following very low calorie diets. They become medication free and continue to be in remission for several years.
    My question is this:
    The most likely category of people in this group are usually older people. I wonder what affect the aging process has on being able to stay in remission taking into account the need to keep the weight off.
     
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  2. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Personally I don't regard 48mmol/mol (6.5%) as normoglycemia. Not by a long stretch.
     
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  3. Mrs_A_Wrinkly

    Mrs_A_Wrinkly Type 2 · Active Member

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    Sorry don’t understand this comment? Don’t mean to be dim.
     
  4. xfieldok

    xfieldok Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    48 is diabetic not normal. 42-47 is prediabetic.
     
  5. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    The definition of "remission" used by the Newcastle Diet study is lower than 48 mmol/m which can still leave the "successful" subjects as pre -diabetic.
    Long term results are ok but not especially great. About 36% of people are sub 48 mmol/m HbA1c after 2 years.
    It is essentially a crash diet (which we are usually warned off) and there isn't a lot of info about what you should transition onto after the 8-12 week period of severe calorie restriction.
    A lot of us have success with a low carb diet instead without the necessity to starve.
     
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  6. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    hi,

    please don’t think you are dim. Sometimes people hang around this forum for so long that they forget not everyone knows the terminology.

    When Prof Taylor and the Newcastle diet is claimed to put people into remission, what is actually being claimed is that a significant number (but by no means all) of the people in the study achieved blood glucose drops which have been labelled as ‘remission’.

    a normal person’s blood glucose is classed as having an HbA1c of 41mmol/mol.
    A pre-diabetic’s blood glucose is classed as having an HbA1c of 42-47mmol/mol
    And a diabetic has an HbA1c of 48+ mmol/mol

    in the Newcastle diet studies, I believe the term ‘remission’ is used to describe someone whose HbA1c lowers to below 48 (Could be 47) for a period of 6 months, without needing drugs like insulin and gliclazide to achieve it. I can’t remember if they allowed people to use Metformin.

    The original study claimed a remission rate of around 70% But there was no long term follow up.
    The later study included a 5 year followup, and the reversal rate was much lower (around 40% i believe) with people losing their remission over time.

    if you want the precise figures, you can find them all on the Newcastle University website.
     
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  7. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    I don’t think anyone has answered your question yet.

    The likelihood of People developing Type 2 diabetes increases with age.
    It used to be that most T2s were 60+
    Now we are seeing people develop it in their 40s and 30s.

    The main assumption that Professor Taylor makes with his research is that T2 is caused by having a fatty liver and a fatty pancreas, which is often signified by having a bit of extra weight around the middle. A thickening of the waist. His idea is that removing this fat from the organs will allow them to work properly again, and the type 2 diabetes goes into remission.

    This works well for some people, but not all. If the individual doesn’t have a fatty liver, then no amount of calorie restriction will get rid of something that isn’t there. In my opinion, it is simply common sense to establish whether someone has a fatty liver before starting on a starvation diet lasting for months.

    regarding age... I think this is very variable from person to person. As we get older, our whole body gets a little bit less efficient, doesn’t it? Hair, joints, digestion... it gets more difficult to stay fit and healthy, and adequate nutrition is increasingly important. We are now told we should eat more protein as we age.

    So the older we are, the better nutrition we need, the more likely we are to develop T2, and the more difficult it is likely to be to achieve remission in the first place.

    Another factor that Professor Taylor looks at in his studies is the length of time people had T2 before they achieved remission. I understand that while people with T2 in his studies did achieve remission at up to 10 years after diagnosis, it is much more likely to achieve remission is you have been T2 for a shorter time. The shorter the better.

    keeping the weight off may look like an obvious solution to stay in remission, but with age, decreasing organ efficiency, decreasing muscle mass and so on, just keeping a low stable weight may not be enough to maintain remission indefinitely.
     
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  8. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Sorry. I should have expanded or waited until I had more time to reply. Hopefully it’s already been cleared up.
     
  9. Mrs_A_Wrinkly

    Mrs_A_Wrinkly Type 2 · Active Member

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    Thank you ,you have given me much to think about and is very helpful and supportive.
     
  10. Mrs_A_Wrinkly

    Mrs_A_Wrinkly Type 2 · Active Member

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    Thanks for the apology.....there has been a great response from Brunneria, however I am interested to hear your opinion.
    Thanks
     
  11. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    That was pretty much it in a nutshell. In my own personal view, 47mmol/mol is very far from normal. Normal for me starts with a three. Preferably a two. Additionally, I believe that there is a massive over-reliance on blood glucose when determining metabolic health. Blood glucose is only the overspill of what’s crammed into tissues, eyes, organs etc. Insulin profiling is far more revealing of overall status.

    The nuts and bolts of it are that I do not classify the Newcastle criteria as valid remission. But I appreciate many will disagree, as is their prerogative.
     
  12. ziggy_w

    ziggy_w Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi @Mrs_A_Wrinkly,

    The Newcastle diet does work for a lot of people with diabetes -- and it definitely beats not doing anything while continuing on as before. Comparing the results of the Newcastle diet and the low-carb/ketogenic diet for people who have had diabetes for ten years, low-carb seems to be a little bit more effective. (You might want to google the Virta Health study https://www.virtahealth.com/outcomes, where people have been diabetic for an average for eight years.)

    In the end, what really matters is that it works for you. So, if you feel more comfortable with the Newcastle diet, it definitely can't hurt trying.
     
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  13. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse · Well-Known Member

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  14. MrsA2

    MrsA2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I've always wondered about those on The Newcastle diet who DIDN'T go into remission. Why didn't their bodies respond the same way?
    Does anyone know anything about the missing half of the study?
     
  15. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Speculating here but maybe they didn’t have a fatty liver in the first place and theirs had difference causes (variations in different type 2 are highly likely) or maybe they are actually a slow onset LADA. Or their pancreas has already reached exhaustion point and has limited amounts of insulin left in production after years of high levels and over production. I’m not sure how they measured compliance, perhaps people simply don’t stick to the sometimes because they are hungry?
     
  16. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I have been in remission for over 8 years by low carbing. I am still very overweight, I lost no weight. So whatever is working for me, it seems losing weight wasn't part of it. Not all of us lose weight. But weight isnt the problem for some, its the carb intake.
     
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  17. Mrs_A_Wrinkly

    Mrs_A_Wrinkly Type 2 · Active Member

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    Thanks really helpful
     
  18. Mrs_A_Wrinkly

    Mrs_A_Wrinkly Type 2 · Active Member

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    Goodness another thought thank you.
    Are you or were you on any medication?
     
  19. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    No, never.
     
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