T2 or NAFLD? ...or, a funny thing happened on the way to the surgery

zand

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It is my understanding @Chris24Main that BPD can, but not always, walks alongside unhealthy levels of narcissism, if not full blown NPD. Years ago now I had the very unfortunate and a personally devastating relationship with a sociopath/malignant narcissist. These people rip the very soul out of you, along with every ounce of self esteem you possess. I could go on on about what they can do to you. I cannot imagine what your life must have been like as a child growing up with your mother, the person who you turn to for love and protection. I was at least an adult with a strong sense of self having had a happy childhood.
I agree with your thoughts on anger. Their raging anger that they project on to others. I found what you said about Cushings disease very interesting, chronic inflammation from a body so out of balance, no doubt causing many chronic diseases including T2.
ed grammar
Yes, I have known someone like that, wasn't a family member, or even a partner but as you said they did rip the very soul out of me and left me with no self esteem at all. When I finally realised what was happening and I faced the person to tell them i wanted no more to do with them they visibly shrank in front of me, like they had lived off my life force like a vampire spirit.

It took me years to recover and this forum helped me alot.
 

Outlier

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Long ago I attended a psychic workshop which included a very useful session on 'vampirical people' who feed off others' energy, often unwittingly. Being able to recognise them and shield against them is a very useful life skill. One can even come across them in places such as supermarkets, where such people follow you round or get too close and if we are unprepared we can actually feel our energy drain. Similarly, one often comes across such characters socially or in the workplace.

Learning to metaphorically duck and weave in the presence of such people is so useful, especially in a medical setting, where a little experience lets us keep safe from those less good medics who try to use their training as power play, and all hail to the more evolved ones who inform, support and help us. But of course as children, we do not have the experience or life skills to realise what is really going on and so protect ourselves from it, and it casts a long shadow.
 

Chris24Main

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Thanks for your words @Melgar - and yes - as it happens, some time ago I joined a forum for children of BPD (you can imagine that the separation between the various sub-forums was pretty tight there) - and was overwhelmed at the number of people with identical experiences to mine - it was a real eye opener.

Anyway - the post kind of got away from me - I only really brought up that part of the story to underline that I have that insight as to the destructive power of anger.

Setting aside the effect on me, my mother had a gaping chasm of woe inside her. It was simply too painful for her to open any crack into it, so everything became a defense mechanism, and any negative feeling had to be caused by someone else. Once I understood this, it became easier (for me) and that was a long time ago. It's more that: for me, as I reflect now on how much things other than what you've eaten have an effect on your hormonal balance - I feel even more sad about the life she lived. She was existing in a fire-hose of stress hormones.

Then - I have to reflect on the way that this feeds on itself, the feeling of anger causing more self-loathing, causing more anger, causing more self-loathing - she definitely got worse as she got older, and I can't help but see the parallel with insulin resistance - absent doing anything about it.

So, for me - part of this is the surprise I've found in learning to meditate. However you feel with those words, the practical reality is just that I set aside 10mins most days and sit and watch myself breathing. I use an app that guides and teaches a little, but every session I just feel a little calmer, and over time I notice that I'm just that little bit more able to not react to something in anger -

- and over time that lets me feel a little more comfortable just being me. It sounds like such a little thing; but trying to get on top of this has been a struggle requiring daily effort, certainly for most of my adult life - I will not go down the same path as my mother; and I know that I had picked up and learned many of the same responses.

One of my biggest fears in becoming a father was not being able to break that cycle, and somehow passing this on to my daughter. So, even as I was writing out that previous post, my daughter came home from school, literally quivering with anger about feeling like she had been called a liar by a school teacher. This should have led to a shouting argument between us, and many times before it has - she's very like me and very like the grandmother she has never met.

However - this time we got through it - we talked, she vented, I gently pushed at the idea that "the thing she knew she should have done but didn't"... led to this; but only in the sense of trying to learn, and what could we do to get this teacher back on side... we got through it, and later we ate steaks together, and chatted for a couple of hours (before my wife got home and could properly sort things out - any father of an eighteen-year-old girl know that there is precious little they can achieve) - and ended up having a lovely evening together.

That simply would not have been possible a year ago - her anger would have made me angry - we would both be angry at ourselves, but would express it by shouting at each other ... it would have been a mess.

All of that had to change - but oddly, having T2DM has ended up giving me the tools to start to chip away at that demon; and for that I'm extremely grateful.
 

Chris24Main

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Long ago I attended a psychic workshop which included a very useful session on 'vampirical people' who feed off others' energy,
People with BPD are often referred to as emotional vampires, and - whatever helps to make sense of it - but there doesn't need to be anything fantastical - the brain is such a complex and wonderful thing, it often surprises me that we need to make up fantastical reasons to explain what happens when something in such a complex machine goes slightly wrong.

In the BPD forum, we referred to our mothers as "Nadas" - for many it was simply too painful to use the word mother, and I still cannot bring myself to shorten that to a more convivial term. Nada, in the sense of nothing, and certainly no love. Just makes me sad; imagine living that way. Her, I mean. I struggled with the sense of guilt of not doing enough, but that's part of the pattern of control, and once free of it, I just felt pity. I mourned my mother for years before she actually died.

Ironically (?) it was her that insisted that we break contact. This is also in keeping - I had made an ultimatum, and she told me it was just too painful for her, and that it would be easier to pretend that I didn't exist. Then she sent a letter full of accusations, which I still have.

@zand - don't know if that helps, but when you see the aching sense of pain that drives all of the bizarre and controlling behaviour, if you can see the poor, scared wizard behind the curtain, it doesn't make it better, but at least it's easier to understand that it has very little to do with you...
 
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Melgar

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I gave you a hug emoji @Chris24Main, but it could equally be a winner one. The thing that strikes me is that people with personality disorders struggle to find it within themselves to choose to be different, choose to lose the anger, or choose not to be abusive to others through projected anger and blame. They are lacking in a stable, sometimes none existent sense of self. To that end they lack empathy. It is a downward spiral. You on the other hand Chris had it within yourself to make choices about your life, not to be like your mother. There is a world of difference to be had when you are able to make those life changing choices. You clearly have empathy. You chose to enrich your life, to make choices around your health, your success in your diabetes management. Thats why, in my mind you deserved a winner emoji too.
 
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Chris24Main

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I truly appreciate that.

And you are absolutely right - It's like living with a monster constantly behind you with a gun to your head - just not being able to choose. I find the idea more terrifying than any made up horror.

Sometime in my teens, really, and ever since, I decided I had to choose another path, and you just have to keep choosing. You'll get it wrong from time to time, and I was lucky enough to find a woman with enough empathy for the both of us, who was willing to put up with me.

But - part of the reason that this thread is so long, is that I just have to keep pushing that boulder up the hill, because I know that it's always just waiting to start rolling down again.

Man, that got bleak - I don't mean it to be - for what it's worth, this whole avenue was supposed to be joyous - dammit - you have me tearing up now....
 

Chris24Main

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For the sake of total clarity - I feel blessed to have been diagnosed in the way that I was, with the background I have - both in trying to keep my own emotions in check, but also the "professional problem solver" that my job entails - I have the tools now to be both fully happy and healthy, in a way that perhaps has never been possible in my life leading up to this moment - and that is really something I feel amazingly grateful to be able to express, and mean it.
 

zand

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@zand - don't know if that helps, but when you see the aching sense of pain that drives all of the bizarre and controlling behaviour, if you can see the poor, scared wizard behind the curtain, it doesn't make it better, but at least it's easier to understand that it has very little to do with you...
Yes, I agree. I saw it when I left. The person got their claws into me and pretended to be a friend after both my parents died 19 days apart. If I hadn't been so vulnerable I would have seen what was happening much sooner. Still I'm over it now and older and wiser. Friendships on here really helped me.
 

Bcgirl

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Wow, these last few posts….quite emotional and deep, thought provoking for sure. It’s amazing how others words can bring up memories from deep within.
I find people on this forum are fighters, strong willed folks who fight to make themselves better. In the end we are all responsible for our own lives with the hopes that maybe, just maybe, we will have a positive influence on others. Please know you have touched my life and I have certainly appreciated everyone’s insights!
 

Peanut234

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To add to the discussion on muscle and interesting research to bury ones head in :), I have recently been watching Youtube videos (have not got the book yet) of Stacy Sims including this one:

She is a physiologist who initially was focused on women's sports physiology, but is now bringing her research and knowledge into the 'real world'
I like her approach, which is research based, and where applicable focussed on women's hormone stages, and I've been making a few changes based on her talks. I now do not fast before exercise, which has helped a lot with reducing fatigue and nausea after exercising. I also want to start using heat after exercise as she mentions some interesting possibilities in helping blood glucose and the mechanics of this. Her approach has helped me gain muscle, which is difficult for me given my current situation.

Its worth watching multiple video interviews/presentations from her as there are interesting and different tidbits in each of them. And as she compares differences, useful to everyone.
The type of information that made me actually say, 'wow', or 'ahhhhh that explains it' to myself.
I think that anyone interested in 'health research' would get a kick out of them, no matter your age, stage, or chromosomes. And it could produce some further rabbit holes for diving down as well which would be of benefit to the group.
I am about to rewatch the above myself as it is a long one, and my retention is not great. But I would be interested to hear what others think of her approach and information.

Although painful for others, I appreciate that I am not the only one having a period of pondering and reflection this early in the year. I've got some forecasted life challenges coming up, and all I can do is cross my fingers, do my best and dive in. Also echoing that I really enjoy this thread for its 'strong willed folks who fight to make themselves better' A rising tide lifts all boats. Wishing everyone smooth sailing this year.
 
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Chris24Main

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Ah, good - we're back on safer ground...

So - yes, Andrew Huberman is really an interesting character; surprisingly modest (even more surprisingly given how huge he is) and very knowledgeable with lots of published research.

Personally - I think there is a wave of stuff coming about how women are not "men, but with wombs" - as I saw on one interview. So much of the research is paid for, run by and focused on men, with occasionally a phrase in the conclusion "should also be applicable to women". As far as the endocrine systems are concerned, we may as well be different species. Not nearly enough focus on women specifically, and the biggest study of all time, which was focused on women, (Women's Health initiative - https://www.whi.org/) often weasels out of the otherwise difficult conclusions essentially by claiming that, when "The [low fat intervention] diet had no significant effects on incidence of CHD" - that too many women were really not following the diet as well as they should have.

My YouTube feed is nearly 50% metabolism related; there is a ground swell of changing opinion, at least as far as I can see.
For about 10 years (it almost seems like you can pin the exact date on a conference in South Africa in 2015) there has been a growing interest in ..let's say.. Ketogenic interventions as a way of treating multiple conditions associated with mental health (it was "invented" as a term regarding treatment of epilepsy) and auto-immune and chronic inflammatory conditions. As well as being successful in treating many of these, there are a group of doctors around the world who noticed that this intervention seemed very effective at treating obesity and T2DM as well. Over time, some of these have become more and more influential, some tracing back the history, and discovering that there is ample supporting literature going back, well, as long as there has been literature - it's really fascinating putting together all the pieces of influences - imperial Britain, post-war USA, pre-war Germany, individual universities and practices across the world, how you have so many instances where one really influential person shifted the world in one direction or other, like a railroad switch gradually pulling a train from one track to the other, but then locking it on that track...

As much as I'm grateful for the input, I'll keep refraining from posting links to individual videos myself though. I don't think there is anything particularly special about this thread, but I know for myself, I get more out of trying to chew on a topic until I can talk about it in my own words. More practically, it just isn't possible (at least I don't think it is) for an ongoing conversation to assume that everyone involved is also watching what can be hour long interviews in order to keep up.

For example - I've actually just watched an interview between Dr Anthony Chaffee and Dr Eric Wiseman - brilliant - for anyone familiar with these characters, Dr Wiseman goes back to the time of Dr Atkins, and is just one of the most level-headed and gentle souls; but he was geeking out like a fifteen year old fanboy, kind of wonderful to watch - but for me, it's like watching a couple of old friends - I just cannot expect anyone else to even have heard of either of them, so I try to keep the conversation about what I can hold in my head (which definitely has it's limits)
 
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Chris24Main

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About a year ago, when I first started this thread; fuelled by the self-righteous anger that came from my diagnosis switching 180° and the initial success of going very low carb and fasting on alternate days, I flirted with the idea of writing a book. A small book, that would lay out "the answer" because clearly all that most people needed was something simple to turn around T2DM. Since I had never seen such a thing, there must be a gaping need for it, and I was the guy to do it. The sheer, staggering hubris and arrogance of that still leaves me a little bit speechless. On every single topic I could think of, there are a ton of books, each better researched than I could hope to do, and with a lifetime of study behind them.

Even then, the idea that there even is "an answer" seems laughably ignorant now, as the more I've learned personally, the more complex everything becomes, and the more individual - what works for one person, may be another's undoing. What motivates someone may be abhorrent to the next. What you bring with you as your personal set of beliefs and biases are at least as important as the science, because it all matters. Also, your own practical history, your parents' history... and so on.

The idea gradually became that in all things there is a balance, and one way of thinking about achieving any health goal might be in better understanding the things that need to be in balance, and giving people the tools to find their own balance. The power of the "eat more wholegrains and fibre, and saturated fat leads to heart disease" narrative is so engrained that we need something even more intuitive to begin to learn something new. My thought was that we all understand something about balance - for example, "all work and no play" - everyone understands that - we all just know that there needs to be a work/ life balance, that rest is as important as exercise, that you rotate troops off the battlefield, that sleeping all the time or being awake all the time is no good... all of these are simple concepts that need no explaining, so can we take that a little further, for example, and say that everyone should find their own balance between eating and not-eating, otherwise the "three meals a day plus snacks" mantra will throw your insulin out of balance. That kind of thing.

It gets emotionally charged though, for obvious reasons. I have a daughter recovering from an eating disorder, and I know that even that final statement would be a challenge for her. Perhaps it's a challenge for you reading this. I don't mean to be troubling, only that I feel that we, collectively need to acknowledge that the underlying language and narrative is geared up to sell things, not to keep us healthy, so if we want to do that, we need a better story.

The other major obstacle in using the "story-telling" approach is that analogies break down pretty fast - metabolism really is complicated, so we end up with phrases like "the morning liver dump of glucose" which I hate with a passion, because it tells you all sorts of wrong things about what is actually happening in the liver and sympathetic nervous system, and tells you nothing useful about what to do to improve your "dawn phenomenon" - which is another phrase I dislike, because it sound mystical and un-knowable.. again; it tells you all the wrong things. BUT - I find over and over again, that any other explanation, technically correct or better aimed at solving the problem, simply misses the mark, people just don't understand, so it helps them not at all. The simple but wrong explanation sometimes is what people need in the moment - it may not be right, but it's a building block for future learning - in the same way that you don't fire degree-level lessons at five-year-olds. It may be "right" - but it's not helpful.

So - I find that after a year, I'm no further forward in my initial goal - finding simple stories that give deeper understanding and help to battle the narrative that got us in this mess in the first place.
 

Chris24Main

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Here's an effort to take that first step, and we have to go back at least five billion years. There are two utterly critical developments in how *life* works, that if we can see the very start of the story, we may be able to understand the modern-day ramifications a little better - I am talking about oxidative stress and inflammation.

DNA comes first - you cannot have life without being able to describe what that is, in terms of the collection of atoms in a structure - I'm going to skip past all of that to the point in evolution where the first single cell organisms were starting to emerge. Life had found a way, and the first little critters were growing and multiplying and thriving... until they weren't. Some change in surrounding circumstance, and everything died off. Over and over. Lack of food, too hot, too cold, whatever, some change; everything dies. Even in good times, the colony will last a few generations, and then die out. Clearly not a very sustainable strategy for seeding the Earth, starting from scratch every time there is a hiccup in the food supply, or a sustained period of growth.

Then - a new contender emerges. It has a mutation in its "B" gene. In these very early organisms, the genetic code is pretty simple - We take this simple strand of DNA and copy it. Then, we have "caretaker" gene "A" which stops cells from doing that when times are tough, and we have "arbiter" gene "B" which acts as the switch for gene A - if times are good, it produces a protein that silences gene A, and the cell can divide and reproduce. All of this has been going on for some considerable time - the difference is that this new kid on the block has a mutation in gene B which gives that protein a new function. Not only can it silence gene A, but if any other part of the DNA strand is broken, it can leave gene A (stopping all reproduction while it's away) and *fix* the broken parts of the DNA.

Life can now repair itself. Not only can cells grow, but they can survive damage. In the end, the blueprint for life is nothing more than a complicated arrangement of acid molecules in a double-helix structure. It can be damaged by radiation, toxins, particles; any number of things, and every time the cell divides, there is a risk of physical damage as the pair of strands are ripped apart. Now, that inevitable damage can be reversed, and life can develop more complexity.

All of our entire immune system evolved from that one single janitor protein who could repair broken DNA. This genetic survival-enhanced organism. Literally everything else died, because nothing can stay pristine over time. We all suffer some form of damage to our DNA, and if we cannot keep up the repair effort, the cell will die or become dysfunctional - we call that aging.

So - the very first struggle between competing forces began, between things that cause damage to our most important structures, our DNA, - and of course our ability to fix the damage. If our ability to fix the damage is bigger than the rate of damage - we are healthy - if it's the other way around; not so much. All of this (in our highly evolved state) can be described as inflammation. Now, we have "scouts" looking for "flags" on damaged cells, we have "alarm raisers" and "amplifiers", leading to "first responders" and "paramedics" and even "fire extinguishers" and finally "garbage collectors" and all the messengers that are required to make all of this function. Most of this is synthesised as needed, supplied by the blood, and removed by the lymphatic system. It happens all the time, all over the body. But it takes resource, and just like that first organism, if the rate of damage is faster than the janitor protein can keep up with, you are in trouble.

Our modern environment is full of stuff looking to cause damage to DNA, and of course it isn't just DNA, it can be other cellular structures, the cell membrane; it's all part of the balance of inflammation and healing. There are some things you can do to limit the inflammation in the first place (things not surprisingly called anti-inflammatory) and there are things you can do to promote your immune system and your ability to heal. I don't really want to get into the practicalities, but you can see that inflammation itself is as natural as breathing - but you have to breathe out as well as in.
 
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Chris24Main

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Now - fast forward a billion years or so, and we come to the great oxygen calamity. I've covered this before, but you get to a point where the emerging rulers of the planet, the bacteria, are going great guns, and spewing out oxygen all over the place, until it gets to be a significant proportion of the atmosphere, and now all the internal reactions that did so well to produce energy become explosive, like all the diesel engines all had to be filled up with high octane petrol. Boom.

What developed in response to that is a highly complex system of reactions that allow for the explosive power of oxygen to be dealt with in tiny increments - it's called the electron transfer chain, and it's truly an amazing system of checks and balances that happen all along the internal surface of what we now call mitochondria. At the time, they were the Top Guns of the bacterial world that was emerging... they were the new upstarts; the hot shots that could work with and tame this new environment; but the old dogs took one look, and said "not so fast" - and swallowed them. Literally all of our modern, complex cells are originals of those early single cell organisms who kidnapped and imprisoned the first bacteria to manage the explosive power of oxygen. It became a symbiotic relationship of course; the mitochondria provide energy, and the larger cell provides protection.

The important point, is that now we are dealing with Oxygen - and that guy just wants to see the world burn. Take any small fire, add oxygen, and you have an explosion. All of our energy production at the cellular level is basically trying to avoid that need to explode. It's difficult to describe in a way that still makes sense, but the electron transport chain is about ... well, imagine this - you have Galileo and his cannon ball at the top of the leaning tower of Pizza. He can drop the ball, and it will fall, and smash into the square below... or... he can take a broom and allow it, smoothly to drop from one stair down to the next, all the way down the spiral staircase, so that when it reaches the pavement, it's only dropping from a small height, and does no damage to the paving. That's pretty clumsy, but close enough - you have lots of little steps that each produce a tiny amount of energy so that nothing gets out of control.

But - it *wants* to get out of control. Because Oxygen is a jerk, it's always trying to push the boundary like a three-year-old. To torture the cannonball analogy, the ball is always looking for a window to fall out of, build up some speed, and crack someone's head in the crowd below. This is oxidative stress, and the production of Reactive Oxygen Species - literally Oxygen molecules that have escaped this controlling process with a little too much energy and are looking for trouble.

This is our next eternal battle between good and evil - or rather the need for lots of energy, but not too much energy that things blow up.

One of the most obvious things that these overly-energetic molecules (we used to call them free radicals, but that always just made me think of the Scarlet Pimpernel for some reason) bump into and blow up, is ... DNA... and that closes the loop between inflammation and oxidative stress, but hopefully you can see them as distinct and different things, even though one totally affects the other.

So - what causes oxidative stress? - anything that compromises the "clean burn" of the mitochondria. If you think of them as like little wood burners - then anything kind of makes sense - burning too hot, burning too cold, the wrong fuel, too much fuel, not enough ventilation, too much ventilation... and so on and so on. Again, not so much a "how to" but thinking this way, oxidative stress is unavoidable and utterly natural, it's just a question of balance again, you need just the right amount of stoves, the right fuel in the right quantity, with the right amount of ventilation - and - plenty of stuff to mop up the inevitable ROS that you cannot totally avoid, but do not want to be overwhelmed with. This is what anti-oxidants (like vitamin C) do.
 
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Chris24Main

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So - that was a lot. I asked my wife to read through the last three post and see if any of it makes sense to her.
Lets just say she was polite....

I was trying to answer for my own benefit - what does any of that help you (one) to actually do, practically?
On the one hand, it's actually quite high-level stuff - to do with basic genetic expression and mitochondrial energy management, so you're really talking research scientist specialist stuff - most GPs and certainly DNs will not know this stuff, so what good is talking about it - what the hell am I putting all this time into it for?

and - I keep coming back to - well, it's only complicated sounding, because we don't talk about this stuff very often, so it seems quite ..exotic.. but really it's about the most basic thing that all life revolves around - the need for energy and repair.

Couldn't be more simple than that. But then - ok, so it's really simple, but what does that let you do?

and - the answer to that is... it allows you to see through all the guff that's plastered all over food advertising, media articles... etc.
Such and such is the "key" to dieting because it's anti-inflammatory - or such and such a food is great because of it's anti-oxidant effect...

You can see it more like "this product will help you breathe more easily" - ok - so it's a decongestant, but it isn't like I'm going to stop breathing if I don't take it, and if instead I eat these foods that don't give me a runny nose, that will also help - dodgy example aside (I really have to play fair by the forum rules and not say anything that could seem like advice on this - I'm really not about saying anything is "the answer" - only that by seeing inflammation and Oxidative stress as both essential for life, but also needing to be balanced - you can make better decisions that fit your own life, your priorities, but being able better to see the big picture).

So, let me be more specific - what do I do, if I think that this allows big picture decision-making ?

Well - it seems to me that the general advice that "you must have glucose for energy" mantra is all upside down - I mean the entire thing about diabetes is that too much glucose is not good, won't that just be the same at the cellular level - won't it mean that all our little stoves are burning too hot and making too much soot? - wouldn't it be better to let them burn fatty acids and ketones for more of the time? - there is nothing less pro-inflammatory than the kind of fat and protein on meat... (this only for me, I'm in no way saying that everyone should do this..) - but feed your body with the stuff that's least inflammatory, at least for a while; if you are very metabolically healthy, you can afford to allow more inflammation (I mean, what is chilli other than a directly inflammatory toxin that we (I) love eating for the effect...) - but if we are working to reverse a condition, then maybe it's worth not having that chilli, or that fruit (fructose is directly inflammatory in the liver), or that kale (with all its inflammatory oxalates, which the liver has to purge from the body).

You know - learn, and be careful, but do it mindful that everything in the end comes down to your balance of inflammation (indeed, technically, end of life is when there is more energy needed for repair than the cells are able to generate)

and - really, the best way of allowing your cells to repair, is to give them as much time as possible not having to deal with digestion and packing away energy - Fasting gets such a bad rap as being difficult to do, but I feel the more I get into this, the more I think that's about us all being sold on the idea by organisations that would have us buy more of their products (and I don't mean to invoke conspiracy there, there is nothing at all wrong with trying to make a profit) - Fasting is really only about spending as much time as possible not eating, while in that eating time, getting enough energy and nutrition that you don't feel hungry, and timing it to have the best social interaction you can, and enjoy your food.

What could be simpler than that?
 

Chris24Main

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I've been reading Roy Taylor's book laying out the Newcastle view of diabetes.
Very conflicted about all of this. On the one hand Prof Roy Taylor has achieved much, and there must be thousands of people living normal lives now who owe that to his insights, tenacity and ability to popularise his methods so that people actually follow them rather than view them as some kind of fringe, dangerous oddity.

On the other, his book, his central thesis, his treatment method, all exist in lock-step with the abiding narrative that people generally eat more food than they need, and that this leads to fat "clogging up" things - in his case, the liver and pancreas. If you suddenly drop your weight by 15kg, you will reverse your Type 2 diabetes. This will first strip the fatty deposits in your liver and "wake up" the beta cells in your pancreas (which have been going dormant under the "attack" of fat).

'Consider the source' - as Dr Eric Westman might say, and you look back at the career of Roy Taylor - and he talks about having various insights into the state of the pancreas in healthy and diabetic people, and the genuinely revolutionary development of the magnetic resonance imaging equipment, and department that he brought together out of determination and virtually nothing else, which gave him the ability to measure the level of fat and gylcogen in the pancreas and muscles - in a way that nobody else could. You could say then, that it isn't much of a surprise that his major thesis is that T2DM is primarily a question of excess fat in the liver and pancreas, and that a big sign of developing the condition is the lack of ability to store additional glycogen in muscle cells.

Almost his first word is insulin, then he goes on to virtually ignore the wider implications and effects of insulin. He talks about there being a small number of critical hormones, and that insulin's major job being the regulation of glucose uptake. He mentions ketones as an emergency replacement of glucose for the brain in the event of starvation, but repeatedly talks about the brain needing glucose, and that there are only two fuels, glucose and fat.

In other words, there is no recognition of the role insulin plays in fat mobilisation. You can read his book and come away with the idea that "food" results in an insulin response, and that you burn fat and glucose for fuel. Anyone wanting a better understanding should look into the Randal cycle, but essentially glucose and fat "burning" are in competition with each other, and one has to win out - and when insulin is high, the winner is alway glucose, because all your cells are under instruction to store any available fat, and to lock it away in storage.

The "method" is to suddenly reduce weight by 15kg by using prepared meal-replacement shakes. These were developed entirely as a lab tool to induce sudden weight loss. He recognises that there needs to be more research into how to transition into a more sustainable "diet" to keep the weight down, but totally ignores the effect of hunger, or any of the hormones that affect hunger, or even that the sympathetic nervous system can over-ride what the liver thinks it should do. You should read some Gary Taubes to get a better understanding of how absurd it is to simply say that people should eat less food.

Fundamentally, he describes T2DM as a state of fat toxicity, where I think it's better described as a hormone imbalance.

But - all of that doesn't mean that I think he's wrong. How could I with the results he has demonstrated?

I have to come back to a medical phrase that just opens all of this up:
In the presence of elevated insulin, and sufficient energy, adipose tissue will hypertrophy

It's an enormously loaded phrase, and it means a lot of things at the same time:
1. Insulin is the master switch between energy storage and energy release.
2. If BOTH high insulin and sufficent energy - then fat storage cells will pull in available fat and swell up to accommodate. Hypertrophy means to swell up, not to create new, small fat cells.
3. If insulin is low (like if there is no carbs or too much protein in the food) then the body will carry on burning fat.
4. If insulin is high (like if there is some carbs or lots of protein) then the body is stuck storing energy, and only burning glucose.
5. The definition of "elevated" is entirely dependent on you - your current normal level will depend on your insulin sensitivity, your genetics, and genetic expression, your level of stress, and infection and inflammation.
6. The definition of "sufficent" is also entirely dependent on you. But - your abIlity to dial down your metabolism by up to 40% means that you need to eat very little before your body decides that there is not sufficient energy. Essentially - 50% less than normal, whatever normal is, but you can pretty much guarantee that the body will react by making you feel like you should eat something - we're pretty well adapted not to just starve without a fight.

So - this is where you end up with both views of weight loss -
- If you eat in a way that reduces insulin, you will burn energy, and ketones come in to play as a kind of relief valve, but the amount you eat (within reason) is not so important, and you don't need to be hungry.
- If you eat in a way that reduces calories, you have to significantly reduce calories before anything changes (assuming you are following the standard high carb diet) - but you can lose weight, at least in the short term, if you can get over the hunger (or the "pathological hunger" that Dr Catherine Stranahan talks about - stress-driving hunger triggered in the central part of the brain )

both are true, and either can be successful, the biggest differential of course being individual motivation and beliefs.

The insulin approach of course smacks head-first into the "fat is bad" mantra, because if you reduce carbs, and limit protein; of course the consequence will be that more of your intake will be fat, and some of that will inevitably be saturated fat. (forgive me if I just brush that aside for a minute).

But - where does all of this leave us -? Clearly the Newcastle approach can work, but also the low-carb, insulin reducing approach also works; what gives?

So - in my humble opinion, I have some issues with the "twin-cycle" hypothesis - but without going too far into the long grass with this, I can explain a lot of the observations and conclusions from direct effects of insulin and insulin resistance, but the short version is simply that there is a fine line between cause and effect, the end result - as the title of this very thread attests - is that you end up with fat in the liver.

There are very different mechanisms in play as to how it could be occurring, but in the end, does it matter? The end result is the same.

Very quickly, you come to the question on how to treat the excess fat in the liver and pancreas, and you come back to the key statement, for my money, even if you buy the entire thesis, you are still better trying to reduce the visceral fat with lowering insulin through low-carb and intermittent fasting; but that's another thread entirely.

There is far, far more to agree on than there is to argue about.

One thing that was really interesting - in fact made reading the whole book worth the effort by itself; is around the question of what exactly is it that is degrading the pancreas? I have more to say on that.
 

Chris24Main

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First - more thoughts on the Newcastle approach...

One aspect of the general thesis that underpins the Newcastle approach, is that the Liver is producing too much glucose in people with T2DM. Now, I have no problem with that as a statement of fact, and that ties in very nicely with the main action of Metformin (to stop the liver doing so by messing with it's signalling)

Hang on - what's that ? - messing with it's signalling... what is that all about...

This was a thought I just had to get down and out of my head while I still had a tentative grasp at it. Roy Taylor talks about the Liver "producing too much glucose" like that's simply a thing (indeed, this is a central part of the twin-cycle hypothesis, it's one of the cycles). But - we know from liver endocrinology 101 that insulin and glucagon are in a constant fight for supremacy, so if the liver is producing too much glucose, that would mean that somehow glucagon had gotten the upper hand, but in that scenario, (the scenario being T2DM) we also know that blood glucose and therefore insulin is high, so how can both things be true?

The answer is actually pretty obvious, and to quote Ben Bikman, you can probably guess where I'm going next...

We tend to think of insulin resistance being a "whole body" thing - you have it or you don't. Too much of a thing results in the body needing more of the thing. Roy Taylor essentially talks about it this way, but with added genetics - your level of insulin resistance (particularly in the muscles) being genetically pre-determined. But - it's much more complicated than that - I've previously talked about mechanisms that can drive insulin resistance in cells (fructose metabolism causing inflammation in the liver fat cells, causing insulin resistance with no rise in insulin itself), and when you think that insulin affects all cells in the body, in 100 different ways, for sure it's complicated.

In most cells, the result of insulin knocking at the door is to take in fat trigycerides or glucose, but clearly cells responsible for making those triglycerides, or turning glucose into glycogen - they will have a different response.

So - back to the liver - it's producing glucose based on the balance of insulin and glucagon. Insulin is high, because the person is T2DM, but - is also insulin resistant. Therefore, at the cellular level, this means the liver cells are less able to interact with insulin - for various reasons the insulin receptors are less able to "see" the insulin molecules - they become blind to the insulin all around them - so they act on the balance of hormones they can "see" - in other words, high glucagon, thus too much glucose.

In other words - this is the same thing that metformin does (well one of the things, the main thing) but in reverse; it messes with the signalling inside the liver, causing it to produce too much glucose.

This is also how you start to get a grip on the "why is my dawn phenomenon taking so long to go down" question. It's a different starting point, with other hormones acting as the trigger in response to the circadian rhythm, but the balancing response to "return to normal" can be messed up by not being able to "see" the insulin which is being produced by the pancreas in order to have that effect.
 

Melgar

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Great info @Chris24Main . So in short the liver is resistant to insulin - insulin resistance of the liver ? We always think of the skeletal muscles as being the organ most affected when we become insulin resistant, but other organs do too, as we know, the liver, the pancreas, the brain etc. So this would all be covered under the selective hepatic insulin resistance hypothesis.

There is an interesting research paper called ‘Resolving the Paradox of Hepatic Insulin Resistance’ by Dominic Santoleri and Paul M Titchenel.
I’ve attached the paper.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6369222/
 

Chris24Main

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Well - thank you kindly - That is both a perfect summary, and a link to an article that says exactly the same thing, but with more detail on the mechanism.

"Although insulin normally promotes anabolic metabolism in the liver by increasing glucose consumption and lipid synthesis, insulin-resistant individuals fail to inhibit hepatic glucose production and paradoxically have increased liver lipid synthesis, leading to hyperglycemia and hypertriglyceridemia"

Lovely.
[if I had come across that myself, I could have saved myself a bunch of grief - you can picture me, paddleboarding with my bone conduction headphones on, listening to this book, and muttering away to myself that something didn't add up - given that this is in mid January in Yorkshire, I just look even more insane talking to myself in the middle of a river]
 
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