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The Cure for Type 2 Diabetes

Discussion in 'Diabetes Soapbox - Have Your Say' started by carefix, Jan 2, 2008.

  1. Pneu

    Pneu · Well-Known Member

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    I think we will have to agree to dis-agree..

    From personal experience I know I can't low-carb and do more than moderate exercise daily.. And I am pretty certain that Fallenstar like the rest of us needs around 30 - 60g carb / hour of moderate - intense exercise and that means taking on board carbohydrate..
     
  2. phoenix

    phoenix Type 1 · Expert

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    me too
    Food and macronutrient intake of elite kenyan distance runners
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15657475

    I can find similar figures for Ethiopian runners and as for so called low carbing Swedish triathletes the one usually mentioned is Jonas Colting
    http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/Jon ... i_141.html
    I ate more than 100g carbs during last years London Marathon... still have good glucose control :D
     
  3. carbman

    carbman · Member

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    Information update 2009

    Swedish triathlete Jonas Colting with us to talk about how the high-fat, low-carb nutritional approach has not only improved his health but also maximized his athletic performance in competition–he won the Ultraman World Championships in 2004 and then again in 2007 as well as high finishes in the Long Distance World Cup in 2001, 2004, and 2005.

    http://www.carbwire.com/2009/06/15/swed ... tic-career
     
  4. Angeleyes

    Angeleyes · Well-Known Member

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    Before we get all excited about LCHF hype and Jonas Colting perhaps you might like to look at Anthony Colpo's take on this (May 2011) along with what Colting actually said about his diet.

    http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=1535

    The article is entitled 'Why Low-Carb diets are terrible for athletes. This first bit is hilarious, a spoof conversation between a coach and an athlete.

    there's loads more in there, so borofergie, carbman et al, knock yourself out! :wink:

    The bottom line is that both zero-carb and low-carb diets are a disaster for those engaged in regular strenuous exercise. And for anyone with a sound knowledge of the biochemistry of energy production, this is no big surprise. (Anthony Colpo)
     
  5. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    OK, I promise I'm not link mining on this (and Phoenix, I respect you greatly both as an athlete and the intellectual backbone of DUK), but as a low-carbing T2 Diabetic, who is in the process of stepping up to half-marathons (and maybe a marathon next year), this is something I've looked at carefully.

    You need to look at some of this with a T2s glasses on. I don't have the luxury (or the terribe burden) of using insulin to eat up any carbs that I consume. I also don't want to deliberately spike my carbs before or during a run.

    Most of the literature that I've read comparing fat-loading against carbo-loading will conclude that carbo-loading will promote superior performance (which is fine for a non-diabetic athlete) but also that fat-loading will decrease the rate of glucose uptake from the blood and (if it happens) reduce the symptoms of hypoglycemia.

    This is a good explanation:
    http://fulltext.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2001/acsms/papers/BURL2.pdf

    so is this:
    http://www.racewalking.org/fat_loading_for_endurance_sports.pdf

    There are lots more. Dr Mike Sherman (http://pro.osu.edu/profiles/sherman.4/) at Ohio State is the daddy of this type of research - unfortunately I can't get many of his papers, but you can read a lot about his work, and the (lack of) science behind Carbo-Loading in Tim Noake MD's brilliant "The Lore of Running".

    If I didn't have T2 Diabetes, I'd happily carbo-load. However, if I want to keep my 5.2% HbA1c then I've got to look at alternatives.

    Are you much of a runner Angeleyes?
     
  6. Angeleyes

    Angeleyes · Well-Known Member

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    Am I much of a runner, yes actually. It's surprising what you can do if you put youtr mind to it. :lol:

    Are you an Endocrinologist? :D

    Here's part 1, might help out with a few things as well.

    http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=1498

     
  7. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Please accept my profuse apologies Angeleyes. [Mod edit: unnecessary comment]

    Do you have any more blog links? Much more interesting that peer reviewed scientific journals.
     
  8. Angeleyes

    Angeleyes · Well-Known Member

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    Apology accepted. I don't know where you get your information from, as far as I am aware the person you were alluding to was not fat. (6ft and 14 1/2 st I think) I think you and your pals need to check your facts before making crude insults to people on the board.

    I take it that in 4 minutes you have read, digested and assimilated all the article contents I posted. Speed reading comes in very useful, doesn't it.

    I will resist the urge to call you names as well, it really is rather demeaning when a person does that, don't you think? :)
     
  9. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Another argument - if you believe the persistance hunting theory - is that we evolved to chase Antelope to exhaustion by running at a constant pace for 2 and a half hours (ie a marathon) over the Savannah.

    The guys that still do this in Kenya (according to "Born-to-Run" )have to be able to do that at the drop of a hat, even after a hard days hunting. If you're doing that, then you don't have the luxury of even running on a full stomach, let alone one that is full of carbohydrate. They certainly don't have access to energy-gels while they are running.

    I can read very quickly. It's one of those things you learn at University.
     
  10. Angeleyes

    Angeleyes · Well-Known Member

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    I'm very pleased to hear you are well read, there are too many people who claim to be many things on the net, qualifications and such like. They really should be checked out as many spout utter rubbish at times.

    Still, can't stay here 24/7, you will get me confused with someone else! We should meet up sometime and discuss things over a drink or two, diet of course. :wink:
     
  11. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you're right of course. I'd hate to be part of a forum where people pretended to be someone else and invented numerous pseudonyms to agitate people and support themselves in arguments.

    http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id ... rk=tab_pro
     
  12. phoenix

    phoenix Type 1 · Expert

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    Borofergie, I understand where you are coming from, and I realise that neither you nor I are elite athletes like the elite Kenyans who most definitely eat a high carb, mainly plant based diet. ( about 600g, 23% of this was Ugali the famous porridge, but another 20% came from simple sugar ). I haven't found any evidence that any elite athletes live on a truly low carb diet, in spite of claims from some blogs (my 'tag', means take no bodies word for it.... and I don't)
    summary of diet here as the original link was not a full text (I have a copy but can't find it online now)
    http://racemates.com/nutrition/eat-like-a-kenyan

    Most of us don't do anything like they type of training they do we don't need the same amount of fuel.
    Nevertheless, as you increase your mileage then you may well find that your insulin sensitivity increases and that you need and also will be able to take in more carbs to refill your glycogen reserves, without your glucose levels rising. (think about the period immediately after training) Your basal metabolism should also increase so the food you eat, of whatever source, will be more quickly metablised.
    It is a misconception that only people who low carb use fat for fuel, unless you are an elite athlete and running very fast, you will be using more fat than glucose after about 40 min and if you were out for as long as 6 hours 80% of your fuel would normally come from fat. However if you are moving for some time eventually the necessary glucose reserves will run out as we can store relatively little.
    This is why the cyclists in Phinney's low carb trials had nothing left after about 3 hours.
    For me personally the insulin question is a red herring (not all T1s, probably those who run faster need more immediate glucose). Indeed my problem is safely reducing it low enough to avoid hypos. When you test and discover your glucose is in the 2s you know that you need sugar and definitely no insulin :lol:

    Have a look at the work my Sheri Colbergs book and online articles, she is a T1 but she is also an expert on T2 and exercise.

    Although it's probably now irrelevant (since we are now talking more specifically about people with diabetes) I must just add one of the comments by Colting on J Moores blog which confirm that although he is careful about the type of food he eats during training ( natural foods; meat, fish, dairy quinoa, dates, nuts, seeds) he uses much higher carbs for actual events, doesn't except in the earlier quote specify what they are.(although he's sponsored by Red Bull :shock: )

    "I´m not a die-hard low-carb person in every stretch but rather believe in the "train low-race high" concept which includes more carbs during ardous endurance events. None of the negative side effects of excess insulin etc will then occur."

    added link and sentence on Kenyan diets
     
  13. Angeleyes

    Angeleyes · Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what your link is about as it goes to a linkedin sign in page?

    I suppose we are all not who we say we are, just names on an internet forum. You know, borofergi, I mean is that your real name, I think most people on the net prefer to remain anonymous. Saves weirdos getting in touch and spouting rubbish in places such as blogs etc. They are all frightened to fes up to people in real life. They are not something I would wish to be associated with, don't you agree?
     
  14. triksit

    triksit · Member

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    Hi there,
    Please excuse me going back to the subject at the beginning of this thread - trans fats - which I found very interesting.
    Point 1 - When my husband had gall bladder problems he went on a totally no fat diet for six months with mostly carbs supplying replacement calories. The result was that his cholesterol went from normal to excessively high. After his op he moved back to his diet which included olive oil and dairy products and his cholesterol reverted to normal. Seems to me that this emphasis on low fat/high carb diets may even be leading to the greater number of people with high cholesterol. :think:

    Point 2 - And this is just my experience:
    At diagnosis, 1998, bg was around 18. I was extremely anaemic and greatly overweight and discovered Hashimoto's syndrome had all but destroyed my thyroid gland. Allergy to metformin made me decide that diet was the way forward and I was given a diet sheet by the nutritionist and a bg meter.

    As most know, the meter showed the recommended diet to be absurd, (as I had suspected it would).
    I worked out a diet for myself, vegetarian, also using on the fantastic GI information that was only just becoming available on a few sites. I rushed to inform the nutritionist of this information and gave her the links as well as lending my copy of Bernstein. Her response was that it was all too complicated for patients and so better to follow the usual Diabetes UK guidelines. Poor patients!!

    I got my bg down to under 7 and eventually under 6 and my weight slowly came down. I did not give up fats and for oil only used cold pressed virgin olive oil.

    BTW some hypos at this time went beyond confusion and talking gibberish to passing out and being revived with glucose tabs pushed in my mouth. It never got to coma levels, thank goodness, and I have leant to control the lows as well as the highs. I don’t think there’s a competition to see whose hypo is worse, if you feel sh*t, you feel sh*t and it does take a good while to get over.

    Four years ago I became complacent, gave up checking bgs, also because it is so difficult to get test strips for diet only! bg went up to around 12/14 (no hypos!). Dr gave me gliclazide which made me so hungry, I couldn't stop eating leading to high bgs.

    Finally I took myself in hand and stopped the meds without telling the dr (at least I got to have test strips) and put myself to lose 1kg a week. The main task was to cut portion size down to mouse size. I cut the carbs, obviously to get the bg down but used dairy products and eggs quite freely. Over 14 months I lost 45 kg. Bg dropped to under 5. blood pressure dropped to normal as did cholesterol. Over this time I also followed the Harvard neuropathy programme of supplements -
    http://www.cotdazr.org/diabetes/neuropat.shtml
    which gave amazing improvements in my hands and feet.
    I still have more weight to lose so certainly don't look thin. I went to see a specialist for something unrelated the other day and the first thing she did was begin to reel out the low fat/high carb diet. I nearly fell off my chair. Unfortunately she was going to stick needles in me so I held off on the antagonism but you do wonder what they teach these doctors.

    I think we have to remember that everybody’s mileage varies
     
  15. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Ken, my bad, I assumed that everyone was on LinkedIn:
    http://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenferguson

    Give my love to Albert.
    :wave:
     
  16. daintytweety

    daintytweety · Active Member

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    Carefix,I read the first page.And now the last page,as I have become addicted to diabetes.co.uk forum.And my work is waiting for me,would you mind putting in short the exact diet rules,with weight and measurements,as I am very interested in that.
    Thank you :D
     
  17. daintytweety

    daintytweety · Active Member

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    Also Tricksit,I bought lots of low GI books,and still find it complicated.Do you get hungry with it? :D
     
  18. noblehead

    noblehead Type 1 · Guru
    Retired Moderator

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    Stephen, it's not very appropriate to call anyone ''fat'' as many people struggle with weigh issues on this very forum, try and stick with the focus of discussion without the need to use insulting language and that way you'll come across much better.....often when someone resorts to name-calling it looks like they have lost the argument!
     
  19. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Yes Nigel, of course you're right, I'm very sorry if anyone was offended by my use of the "F" word.

    In my defence, I was using it as a self confessed fatty. It's a bit like this (only a ninja can sneak up on a ninga):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw
    [youtube]KVN_0qvuhhw[/youtube]

    Since I obviously lost that argument, what is your position on DUK Members assuming multiple pseudonyms to troll the forum?
     
  20. Grazer

    Grazer · Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes it's not down to losing the argument, it's simply down to frustration in dealing with people who only post for their own benefit: who try to boost their own ego by picking holes (or trying to) in everybody else's post and thus in their minds demonstrating their own (falsely believed) superiority.
    in reality, those people are normally somewhat inadequate in some major aspect of their lives.
    Simple fact is, Stephen is a long standing, well respected member of the forum who has always done his best to help others with his undoubted knowledge, and engage in entertaining discussion and banter. Angeleyes isn't.
     
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