View on low carbing.(part two)

[NickW]

Re: Another view on low carbing.

I realised after I posted that spiel that although I discussed the points of the article, I didn't actually explain my own stance on the whole thing coherently - thought I might do that here, and hopefully it's not too off-topic.

First off, I'm not a rabid "you must low-carb or else" nutter. I don't have shares in LowCarb Inc., I'm not a ketogenic pyramid scam-artist and I don't have anything to gain from converting people to the Church of Enlightened Anti-Carbers. Quite bluntly, I don't know anyone on here personally and it doesn't really make much difference to me what you all eat - I lose no sleep over it!

What I do like doing is helping other people where I can. One of the best ways I can do that is to share whatever information or experience I've got so people can make informed choices.

My opinion when it comes to diabetes is that control over your carbohydrate intake is essential. In fact, I believe this is the case in everyone, diabetic or not. Unrestricted intake of highly refined carbohydrates is simply damaging to EVERY person to some extent, and it's more damaging to diabetics (because diabetes by its nature is evidence of a manifested problem with glucose metabolism). So I'd suggest that in the vast majority of cases, both T1 and T2 diabetics will find their optimal control by restricting their carb intake.

If I had to advise anyone (diabetic or not) on what to eat, it would involve lots of real, whole foods (meat, fish, eggs, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds) and very little else - and almost completely absent would be any refined carb items like bread, pasta or rice. This would be the ideal - I'm realistic enough to know that many people would still want occasional treats or "cheats" and that's fine, though I'd try to emphasise the word "occasional". I've seen accounts from thousands of people - from Olympic hopefuls and elite athletes to teachers, plumbers and students - who thrive on this kind of diet, improving their health, fitness and body composition. It's how we're meant to eat, and getting back to this kind of diet in lieu of the processed and refined "norm" can have a profound effect on health.

If the person was diabetic, I'd initially suggest a low-ish carb intake as well, at least at first, and see where things lie; further tinkering can take place once you have this baseline, and many people might find they can eat a fair amount of carbs from real food sources while maintaining good control. But likewise, many people find that they can't, and they have to limit carbs quite heavily to get the control they want. I'm one of these, and while I'd love to eat more fruit and starchy veg it simply affects my blood too much for me to do it. But wherever your own tolerance lies, the best way to find it is by experimenting with lower carb intakes and seeing what effect it has.

This approach simply works so often and so well for so many people that I'd feel guilty if I didn't recommend it. There's a caveat here that diabetics need to be aware of what they're doing - they need to know how this kind of dietary change is likely to affect them, what it'll mean for their medication etc. I completely agree with the points above that you can't just point someone off and set them loose without some advice on what to look out for and how to cope with the changes that will ensue.

Now that's just my opinion. Some people don't want to go low-carb, or don't want to give up the foods they love, and that's fine. There's more to it than the cold, hard numbers on your glucose meter, emotions and all sorts of things come into it too. I think they're missing a trick if they don't at least try it and see if it works, but it's a personal decision and one I respect. Most of the regulars on here know what they're doing and have made this decision one way or another, and I'm not looking to argue with anyone's choices.

However, many of the newer posters on the forum are simply looking for advice and help in improving their control, and they possibly won't even be aware how effective carb restriction can be. It's these people that I hope to help when I post about the efficacy of a low carb diet. At the worst, I'll give them some information that they can weigh up and decide on; and if they decide not to follow it that's fine. But at best, I'll give a little bit of help to someone controlling a pretty horrible condition and they'll live a better and longer life; and I think that's pretty cool actually.

Anyway, sorry that's such a long ramble and hope it's not too off-topic - but that's where I'm coming from anyway.

Cheers,
Nick.

 

[ally5555]

Re: Another view on low carbing.

morning - go out for the evening and loads of posts.

I think this type of post will always get side tracked!

Just a few comments not in any particular order!

John - I thought you were a low carber = apologies.

Ali b - COELIAC disease is gluten allergy that can only be diagnosed by antibody studies and usually a biposy. It occurs in 200-500 /1000 population depending on which study you read but often presents in a GP surgery with anaemia. It is the removal of gluten not carbs that completely reverse it. I see at least one new coeliac a month,
The question of a gluten intolerance is completely different. this is often diagnosed by very unscientific and whacky tests - I prefer to use an elimination diet and that often throws up very different results - tuna and green veg are often the culprits!

I am slightly alarmed that you are advicing people Ali - especially kids with autistic syndrome or ADHD or people with schizophrenia - this is a very specialist field with multiple probelms not just diet. I have used these types of diets with pts and they often do not work.

 

[AliB]

Re: Another view on low carbing.

Excuse me? Did I give anyone advice? I merely pointed them to studies, research and experiences of those who have benefitted, and have quoted my own experience and those of others around me and reasoned that it is only by trying, that we find out. I never have taken things at face value but have preferred to work out for myself what works best for me. Along my journey, I have noted that it works for a lot of other people too.

Believe me, I have done acres of research on Coeliac Disease and gluten intolerance. In both cases people present with test readings of higher than 0, which is indicative of an IgA response. The reason the 'Coeliac' test is set at anything greater than 10 is because some of the apparently 'healthy' control group also displayed readings greater than 0 and the thought that half the population might have gluten issues frightened the life out of the Medical Profession! The Medical Profession don't consider anything a full blown disease until it has got to its worst point (and often the point at which it is too late to undo the damage!).

So whilst you may (like me) have had blood sugar and carb metabolism issues for years, you are not 'labelled' Diabetic and treated as such until it gets so bad that you can't get your blood sugar back to normal. You may have had adrenal issues for years but it won't be given the label of 'Addison's Disease' until your adrenals are completely shot. You might have had issues with gluten for years but it won't be given the label of 'Coeliac' until you have sustained enough horrendous gut damage for it to show up through biopsy.

And yes, anaemia can be an indication of Coeliac Disease, but it is by far not the only one, nor does it necessarily have to be present - it all depends where the gut damage is. It was thought that Coeliac only happens to children who display a 'failure to thrive' (and believe it or not there are some practitioners who still think that it only occurs in childhood! My Doctor was one), but is now known to affect people of any age. It was thought that only weight loss was symptomatic but now it is known that weight gain can also be symptomatic. Type 1 Diabetics should routinely be tested for it. Offspring and siblings of type 1 Diabetics should routinely be tested for it. Fertility issues can be symptomatic. Dermatitis Herpetiformis is symptomatic. Thyroid issues can be symptomatic. Ataxia of varying kinds can be symptomatic of it. Gut issues definitiely can be symptomatic of it, especially diarrhoea - and what is diarrhoea if not a form of IBS? Not everyone with Coeliac however, presents with gut issues. They might have what is called by the Medical Profession 'silent Coeliac' .

What a shame my Mum didn't come to see you 50 years ago. She was anaemic ALL her life from when she became Diabetic at the age of 16, yet still the Coeliac wasn't picked up until 4 weeks before she died when it was way too late. One of the most obvious symptoms - and they still managed to miss it...............

(By the way - its not an allergy - http://celiacdisease.about.com/od/whati ... Autoim.htm).

Of course I link gluten intolerance with carb consumption. Try and find anything carbohydrate in the supermarket that doesn't contain it in some form or other! Hydrolyzed protein, MSG, Dextrose, Barley malt extract, etc., etc., there is little out there that isn't infiltrated by it in some way or another.

I am in contact with many people who have finally twigged that their years of health issues are linked to gluten, and yes, the carb consumption that goes along with it. Whilst they might have been able to get away with some, the sheer quantity of the stuff (and the huge amount of 'empty' calories consumed through sugar - consumption of which is still rising and apparently averages around one fifth of daily calorie consumption according to the FSA) has been a big trigger for a host of health problems.

Not all carbs are bad - unless you can't metabolise them very well at all, but many are and are not beneficial in any way, shape or form.

Sorry Catherine, I don't want to hijack your thread either, but then on the other hand, why post it in a section where it is likely to trigger exactly this kind of response??? If it was predominantly about the vagaries of low-carbing then surely the low-carb forum would have been a more appropriate place?

It is an interesting link, and yes there will always be people who do things without really understanding why - but isn't that the case in pretty much any walk of life? There are an awful lot of people out there who have managed to pass their driving test yet should never be behind the wheel of a car.

The whole point of these forums (forii?) is to support and help through the process those who don't understand. Tom Venuto is only condensing what many of us are saying all the time in support to each other on the forum.

At the end of the day, that article is only one man's opinion. My post is only my opinion. Yours is only yours. There are as many opinions as there are people. Some opinions are good, some aren't. Some of your opinions may not be very good - in my opinion! And vice-versa. Whilst some professionals give good opinions or advice, others don't. Who do you believe?

If you are fortunate to be endowed with a modicum of common sense then that is a good help to sorting the good from the dross. If you are not, then sadly you are at the mercy of those who can shout the loudest.

 

[catherinecherub]

Re: Another view on low carbing.

I really do despair sometimes.

AliB, your suggestion about posting in the low carbforum isn't really advisable for people who do not low carb. It can hardly be an open discussion for all in that platform.

As to your continual harping on about all the world's ills being connected to a high carbohydrate consumption,

 

[AliB]

Exactly. It's an open discussion. About low-carbing. About the issues of being informed or mis-informed on the details of low-carbing.

Nice picture. Not quite sure what the relevance was.........

Your daughter? I've got one of those. Gorgeous, slim and elegant. But still affected by carbs.

 

[ally5555]

Ali - I do not know who u are but do you actually see people - your posts are a bit ambiquous.

Yes you may have read studies have you ever seen the results of a gluten free diet in reality - I doubt it . I have - it is dramatic. Reading alot of papers does not make you an expert and tbh I am fed up of people like you - the one thing real coeliacs need is the right advice - if as you seem to advocate a milk free diet too then osteoporosis would be the result - or has your research not picked up that one
I do hope that none of my patients meet up with you - u are a danger.

 

[diabetesmum]

Since when did it become dangerous to have an opinion and express it? I think there is much of interest in what AliB says, does that mean I am living dangerously?? And is it really not possible to get sufficient calcium to ward off osteoporosis without having milk or other dairy products?

 

[AliB]

Ally sweetie. I know you think you know what is 'right', but I am in contact with a lot of people - and I mean a lot, who have Coeliac Disease and 'plain old' gluten intolerance. Unfortunately, whilst some do recover after dumping gluten, many don't. These people fall into a 'black hole' in the Medical World where no one knows why and no one knows how to help them.

In the Medical World there is a name for it - 'Refractory Sprue'. I am particularly in contact with many of those people. For them, dumping gluten is only part of a much more complex problem. Most cannot cope with carbohydrates very well at all, and also develop other intolerances to seemingly innocuous foods like say, tuna, and green veg...........or tomatoes, or potatoes, or eggs, or, well, anything. They may or may not also be Diabetic.

What typically happens is that they feel better for a little while after dumping gluten. They have replaced all those yummy gluten carbs with the not-quite-so-yummy gluten-free carbs and then start finding that they have developed problems with those. They try corn products and develop problems with those, they try soya products and develop problems with those. In the end, these poor desperate people don't know what to do. Having exhausted all the carb substitutes there is nothing left.

Unfortunately life is never always straightforward. If all people with Coeliac and gluten intolerance got better from removing gluten life would be a breeze, but for them, it isn't. For me it wasn't. Many of these people have exhausted the Medical Professions' expertise. Many of them have spent a fortune with 'alternatives' with little to show for it.

Please don't accuse me of talking out of my backside.

Drinking milk does not prevent Osteoporosis. As a professional (I presume from your manner that you are a professional?), you ought to know that. The countries with the highest dairy consumption (Finland, Sweden, the United States and the UK) also have the highest incidence of Osteoporosis. My Mother drank milk all her life - it did not prevent her developing Osteoporosis. My friend has drunk milk all her life - she too has Osteoporosis. All those people out there who all their lives have faithfully followed the advice of the Medical Profession (and the Milk Marketing Board) and had their daily milk and who can't understand why they now have Osteoporosis! What good did that advice do them?

Yes, bones are made of calcium, but they are also made of a lot of other elements too. Excessive intake of calcium can actually contribute to Osteoporosis.

http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm

Many cultures throughout the World don't consume dairy at all. They get all the calcium they need from their food. There is actually as much calcium, should you need it, in a portion of broccoli as in a glass of milk.

If you are dairy intolerant, you are dairy intolerant. If it makes you ill, you can't have it. If you are gluten-intolerant, you are gluten-intolerant. If it makes you ill you can't have it. Having a Professional tell you not to be so stupid and that these foods are 'important' to your well-being is downright patronising.

Thousands of people are gluten and dairy intolerant yet they keep on eating and drinking it because nobody has told them otherwise and because they are told to eat their bread and drink their milk. And they, like I did, continue to suffer. I could have avoided all those years of digestive problems, IBS, restless legs and burning feet, etc., if only I had dumped them years ago. Might it have prevented the Diabetes too? I will never know.

There are hundreds of cultures throughout the World that don't consume either grains or dairy yet are a darn sight healthier than we are. There are cultures throughout the World that don't consume much, if any, carbohydrates yet they are fit and healthy.

I am in contact with hundreds of these people who have 'Refractory Sprue'. With no support forthcoming from any other source we help and support each other. By far the biggest success has come from removing all foods that contribute to the gut damage, namely the grains, starches, sugar and most dairy (except probiotic and cultured products). We have become 'Expert Patients'. There is little we don't know about Coeliac Disease and gluten-intolerance. What ever the 'experts' say - we are down in there at grass-roots level and we know.

Some diagnosed Coeliacs who have recovered on just a gluten-free diet seem to have a tendency to look down on those who haven't, or those with 'just' gluten-intolerance. But one thing that has been very interesting is that a proportion of those who initially ridiculed us, have pretty obviously, from some of their posts, quietly realised the benefit of removing the ****** carb-dense and often high-sugar and/or high-salt gluten-free rubbish from their diets and also now focus on good, wholesome, natural fresh foods. Their ridicule has dried up and they now respect what we are doing - because they can see that it works.

I diagnosed my gluten intolerance. Me (shock, horror!). After years of digestive issues and IBS and a culmination of horrendous stomach problems - awful, awful pain and running diarrhoea after being given Byetta for three months (by my Diabetic 'Specialist' - who it turns out should never have given it to me in the first place according to Eli Lilly) and a virtually collapsed digestion, I ended up in Hospital - twice, thinking I was dying! On neither occasion did they find anything 'obviously' wrong - not that they looked that hard.

Left to my own devices, my own research led to Coeliac and the gluten link. I then remembered my Mum's experience. Immediately I dumped the gluten, and within 5 hours the pain had gone and the diarrhoea had stopped, never to return. That was my 'whacky' test. I am just so glad that I wasn't just 4 weeks from dying before I figured it out............

Whilst removing it stopped those things, my collapsed digestion needed more work. Not even the gluten-free carbs helped so they had to go. I have spent the last 18 months rebuilding my digestion. Whilst still a work in progress, it is heaps better than it was 18 months ago, and in many ways better than it has been for years.

Do I have Coeliac Disease? I don't care whether I do or not. Biopsies can often make things worse so I'm not going down that road and the only thing I would get out of it is ****** gluten-free carbs so what's the point? I don't need a label to tell me I am gluten-intolerant. I only need to accidentally ingest some - that gives me all the information I need to know.

I am a highly intelligent, analyst with enough common sense to recognise common sense. No, I am not a 'qualified professional' nor do I claim to be one, but I do know what I am talking about. Most of the experiences that I, mine and many others I know have had at the hands of 'qualified professionals' have not filled us with confidence. You can only take so much bad advice from 'those who purport to know everything'. As a result I now question everything. I check and double-check. I read, absorb, cogitate, compare and draw my own conclusions based on hours of research.

What is dangerous is believing that what you are told by 'those who purport to know everything' is true. 'Lack of milk causes Osteoporosis', 'Fats cause high cholesterol', 'Diabetics should eat plenty of carbohydrate', 'Mercury - the second most toxic metal in the World is not a problem in your mouth', 'Thalidomide is perfectly safe'.......

I'm not saying for one minute that all professionals are wrong - many are genuinely very helpful and supportive - as far as their knowledge or constraints will let them, but finding them and getting good advice and help is a lottery - if you fall through the holes - you're on your own.

 

[NickW]

Just to chime in on the osteoperosis point, since it stood out to me - the myth that dairy is a necessary part of the diet to provide enough calcium is one I wish would die off forever.

When considering calcium intake (or intake of any vitamin or mineral), the important thing isn't how much you eat - it's the balance between how much you take in and how much you excrete. It's no use taking in a load of calcium if your body excretes it all without using it.

The key factor in this is the "renal acid load". Without over-complicating things, every food you eat yields either an acid load or an alkaline load when it's digested. When the overall load is acidic, the body excretes more calcium in the urine - and the more acidic it gets, the more calcium is secreted.

You can have a low-ish intake of calcium (below RDA) and still have enough to ensure bone growth if you have a neutral or slightly alkaline balance to your diet, because the body can utilise the calcium properly. Likewise, it's quite easy to get way more than the RDA of calcium and still develop osteoperosis if you have a high acid load because the body literally p*sses it away.

Key to this is the fact that dairy, and particularly hard cheeses, have a high acid load. So, incidentally, do grains. Meat and eggs are other sources of acid, and all of these need to be balanced by alkaline-producing foods - which are fruits and vegetables. Spinach, kale and swiss chard are particularly good sources (so my mam was right when she said "eat your greens"!) and they're also decent sources of calcium. A diet high in this kind of food is far more likely to prevent osteoperosis than a diet high in hard cheeses.

I'll be posting an article about this at my brand-spanking new blog (named after sugerless sue's awesome signature quote); it should be up this afternoon if you care to read it - http://diewithyourfeeton.com

Finally, I've also got to say that I see nothing wrong with what AliB's posting. The strength of this entire forum in my opinion is that people are sharing experiences that are outside the accepted medical position - that's how we all have good diabetic control! AliB's not posting crackpot theories. It's fine to question what she says of course, and everyone has the burden of verifying what they read before they make any dietary changes; but I'd rather see people post things like this and have the option of deciding that I don't agree and can ignore it, than to not have it posted and potentially miss learning something new.

Just my opinion on things

 

[fergus]

Very well said Nick.
A similar point could be made about vitamin C uptake and excretion of course. What is often ignored by those who extol the virtues of eating a lot of fruit, for example, is the similarity between glucose and vtamin C at a molecular level. As a consequence, both vitamin C and glucose compete for uptake along the same biological pathway and glucose seems to win the battle at vit. C's expense.
We see examples of this in population groups where vit. C consumption is very very low yet the dreaded scurvey fails to materialise, yet experimentally at least, scurvey seems only to manifest itself when following a diet high in processed carbohydrates and hence glucose.

I also agree that Ali's posts are very interesting indeed. Take them or leave them as you wish Ally and Catherine but your dismissive comments are surely prime examples of the sort of closed thinking that you seem happy to accuse others of but fail to recognise in yourselves.

All the best,

fergus

 

[gbtyke]

Well I think that this has been a cracking thread and whilst it may not have gone the way Catherine wanted or expected it has been good.

 

[ally5555]

Ali - please do not patronise me by calling me sweetie - that is something I hate HP doing also calling people patronising names.

I am actually a Dietitian so I do know where calcium comes from .In practice alot pf people who low carb have low intakes of calcium. This may be particularly true for kids and coeliacs are at more risk than non coeliacs. My snap shot on here showed some very poor intakes of fat , calcium , vit c , folate etc .

I get very concerned about people advicing at risk groups and that is why I responded . I have had to sort out alot of problems from pts and clients that have developed from accepting advice from the internet and also from quack practitioners.

Actually Fergus Scurvy does exist in this country and so does sub clinical scurvy - I think what you all fail to realise is that myself and HP see this in real life - we see real people.

I am very worried about osteoprosis - I have see quite a no of young people with the bone age of 70 year olds.

 

[catherinecherub]

It was unfortunate that when this thread was divided it passed my last post over to part 2.
This post is really out of context as it was posted due to my frustration about the derailment of the subject and definitely not about AliB's freedom of speech. I have no axe to grind with AliB.

I had no intention of posting on this thread, (Part 2). However Fergus as you seem to have a closed mind as to why I post then perhaps we should consider the comments made to me by two moderators in the first part,

1. I was winding people up.
2. Was told to leave the low carbers alone.
3. I was accused of being part of the anti low carb lobby.

Consider that and the mysterious moving and deleting of my original post and it makes me wonder what is going on and that is not paranoia. Perhaps that too is the action of someone with a closed mind. Non low carbers are entitled to opinions as well on this forum and are allowed to talk about low carbing. The only way to ensure that the practise advocated above is adhered to is to move any post with the term "low Carb" in it straight into the low carb forum.

Because someone says they are not anti low carb ir seems to be some low carber's assumption that they are really. Sad or what :?:

I may not agree with all that is posted on this thread or elsewhere on the forum but I will always defend the right of other people to have their say. I am not in the business of denying people their rights.

Catherine.

 

[wallycorker]

.........It was unfortunate that when this thread was divided it passed my last post over to part 2.
This post is really out of context as it was posted due to my frustration about the derailment of the subject and definitely not about AliB's freedom of speech. I have no axe to grind with AliB.

I had no intention of posting on this thread, (Part 2)...........

Yes - I agree because it shows me as starting this thread and I certainly didn't intend starting any such thread!

In fact, by personal message, I've asked Cugila to rescue me from this thread by deleting my post but he hasn't - and neither has he replied. It seems as though I'm trapped in here!

"Get me out of here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

[wallycorker]

Well I think that this has been a cracking thread and whilst it may not have gone the way Catherine wanted or expected it has been good.

Glad you like it gbtyke - I'd rather be queuing at Oakwell for tickets for the Man U game! :lol:

 

[cugila]

John.

I haven't had any messages from you....????

Will do as you ask. It was the luck of the draw that you were first. I had asked people to refrain from any further comments in that thread.

Consider it done.

 

[wallycorker]

Hi Ken,

Yes - I've just checked my sent messages and found that you are right that I haven't sent the message. Sorry! Don't know what happened to it.

John

 

[cugila]

Senior moment.........?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[wallycorker]

Senior moment.........?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cheeky beggar!! I'm not old enough to have those!!!! :lol:

Thanks for extricating me from the that thread. :roll:

 

[sugarless sue]

Senior moment.........?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cheeky beggar!! I'm not old enough to have those!!!! :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: You're older than me and I get them !! :lol: :lol: :lol: