YOU HAVE ONLY YOURSELVES TO BLAME

[BaliRob]

To those self-opinionated intransigent multi-posters here who have, by their very selfish attitudes, have spoilt what was a very good Forum for diabetics.

You all know who you are - your are those without gentle consideration for other's and their opinions.

You dominate this Forum to such an extent that you frighten the Moderators who are now leaving in their droves.

Again, you know who you are - you total around 3,000 posts in a very short time - is it a competition? - it certainly is when forcing your opinions down our throats. How can anybody post 300 replies in 8 months - that is 375 per month - over 10 per day. What are you - an expert? You joined like the rest of us to learn.

Remember this - NOBODY knows how to deal with Diabetes in a way to guarantee halting it in its stride. Neither the medical profession nor ESPECIALLY many of the contributors to this Forum - at best we can contribute to developments with our various experiences.

 

[librarising]

Balirob

I fear you are very much mistaken. I don't think any differently of you for that, but I guess you're either not privy to the shenanigans that have gone on on this forum for years, or you are and keeping that very quiet.
In life there are leaders at one end of the spectrum, followers (or sheep) at the other, and a vast number in the middle.
When leadership is good, you don't notice it. When it's bad you do. When good leaders are neutral, fewer things become unacceptable. When leaders have an agenda, more things have to be dealt with from time to time.

I'm under no delusion that innocent people (members and mods) are getting caught up in the current upset.

To those self-opinionated intransigent multi-posters here who have, by their very selfish attitudes, have spoilt what was a very good Forum for diabetics.

I suspect that if we had a 'helpful' button, the people you are deriding would be recognised as 'helpful.' If you don't believe me ask the members.
Only leadership has spoiled this forum.

You dominate this Forum to such an extent that you frighten the Moderators who are now leaving in their droves.

I agree that innocent mods have been caught up. Those unaware of the shenanigans I referred to. I cite poor leadership again.

What are you - an expert? You joined like the rest of us to learn.

Do you mean Borofergie ? I suspect he does more charitable work both on and off this forum than most here. I joined to learn, but stay to help others, as does he. Knowledge is freedom. Again I've read members' posts expressing gratitude for the knowledge they've gained from these people you deride.
Experts ? This is a forum. Do you understand how they work ?
In life you have to choose which 'experts' you listen to.

Remember this - NOBODY knows how to deal with Diabetes in a way to guarantee halting it in its stride.

Have you read Bernstein's Diabetes Solution ?
And if your statement were true, some blatantly (if outcome figures are to be believed) DON'T know how to deal with it.

Neither the medical profession nor ESPECIALLY many of the contributors to this Forum - at best we can contribute to developments with our various experiences.

I feel sad that you believe that. Pro-active research/reading by anyone should show them that your statement is plainly wrong.

I may not be around much longer.
For any interested my email is
[email protected]

Geoff

 

[Patch]

Bali - what is the point of your post?

I dare say that Mods are leaving for reasons OTHER than the posts made by the membership.

Your comment re:

How can anybody post 300 replies in 8 months - that is 375 per month - over 10 per day. What are you - an expert? You joined like the rest of us to learn.

I can tell you EXACTLY why these posters have such high post counts - they spend a GREAT DEAL of their own time researching (PROPERLY researching - not logging on to Diabetes.co.uk a couple of times a week), and then bringing what they have learned HERE, for US. I love 'em for it.

If you're really here to learn, you'd be THANKING these people - not deriding them for having a high post count! :crazy:

 

[GraceK]

I think the point of Rob's post is that he has an opinion on the situation and wants to express it?

That's allowed isn't it?

 

[Patch]

He didn't express an opinion. He moaned about people having a high post count!

 

[BaliRob]

Thankyou Grace,

All I know is that this is the third time in as many months that there there have been arguments bringing some to the point of tears.

I chose not to name anyone but, as one name has been put forward, I ask him to look at himself in the mirror. Whenever a contradictory opinion is voiced you can feel the irritation in his reply which is often abrasive and, sometimes, a lack of patience. All this comes from being the one everybody seems to be looking up to - all such posters assume authority which is not necessarily there.

As for the medical profession - they admit they are having problems trying to decide the best course for their patients; and, for the written works, you can go back through the decades and end up laughing at the theories put forward then.

To say that my statement is, "plainly wrong" when there are people here calling the NICE Guidelines out of date which means wrong now in my book - what gives you evidence that I am wrong? I have been careful throughout to detail fact not assumptions as to why Moderators left (insinuating corruption - how absurd). How can I be wrong when the whole world is being reactive to the symptoms and terrible consequences of the disease at the moment. I have read most of the research that has been thrown at me (above) - much of which I do not understand - but research conclusions I do and have never seen a categorical result/opinion submitted to the medical profession as substantive evidence/reasons for hope as yet.

Every patient is an experiment - this is not ridiculous, I mean by choice of medication, etc., etc. BUT, one day, there will be a "Eureka' moment when that breakthrough comes about and one side ot the other will be proved right - I wait for that day!!

I have noticed that those of a more generous spirit have abstained from this argument and I applaud their restraint - I did not have their self-control for which I will probably pay the price. But, I am angry at those that have despoiled this Forum and I will continue to voice my opinion.

 

[GraceK]

If sarcasm was left out of responses, if dismissiveness was left out of responses, if competetiveness was left out of responses - people would feel LISTENED TO, HEARD and ACCEPTED even if their opinion isn't agreed with.

There is such a thing as agreeing to disagree - which I think is the generosity of spirit that Bob is referring to.

 

[angua]

If sarcasm was left out of responses, if dismissiveness was left out of responses, if competetiveness was left out of responses - people would feel LISTENED TO, HEARD and ACCEPTED even if their opinion isn't agreed with.

There is such a thing as agreeing to disagree - which I think is the generosity of spirit that Bob is referring to.

Unfortunately Grace we are not all evolved to the same level, either emotionally, nor in the ability to communicate clearly what is meant (hence the development of emoticons)
To suggest removal of our emotions from responses is in my opinion bordering on the absurd, how would you suggest one goes about divorcing oneself from fundamental drives ?

And from Bali's post " How can anybody post 300 replies in 8 months - that is 375 per month - over 10 per day. What are you - an expert? You joined like the rest of us to learn." Does this quote upset you, since the math would place you in this category also ?

 

[librarising]

BaliRob wrote
All I know is that this is the third time in as many months that there there have been arguments bringing some to the point of tears.

All of those 'responsible' for this and now banned would rather have had good leadership. If there was 'squabbling' going on in a classroom or in the workplace wouldn't you hold management responsible ? I repeat

I guess you're either not privy to the shenanigans that have gone on on this forum for years, or you are and keeping that very quiet.

If you are ignorant of these then you won't be able to understand what's going on. When I joined I too was ignorant.

As for the medical profession - they admit they are having problems trying to decide the best course for their patients; and, for the written works, you can go back through the decades and end up laughing at the theories put forward then.

Perhaps doctors aren't always the best people to decide. They don't have magic powers (sorry to disillusion anyone.)

To say that my statement is, "plainly wrong" when there are people here calling the NICE Guidelines out of date which means wrong now in my book - what gives you evidence that I am wrong?

When you say in your sentence "AT BEST [emphasis-Geoff] we can contribute to developments with our various experiences" I repeat my assertion. As I said, after "pro-active research/reading."

I have been careful throughout to detail fact not assumptions as to why Moderators left (insinuating corruption - how absurd).

I refer you to your lack of awareness of previous goings-on.

How can I be wrong when the whole world is being reactive to the symptoms and terrible consequences of the disease at the moment. I have read most of the research that has been thrown at me (above) - much of which I do not understand - but research conclusions I do and have never seen a categorical result/opinion submitted to the medical profession as substantive evidence/reasons for hope as yet.

Reactive ? Perhaps but my condition can't wait for a fuel tanker to turn round, and it won't be quicker than that.

Every patient is an experiment - this is not ridiculous, I mean by choice of medication, etc., etc. BUT, one day, there will be a "Eureka' moment when that breakthrough comes about and one side ot the other will be proved right - I wait for that day!!

As I said, my condition can't wait.

I have noticed that those of a more generous spirit have abstained from this argument and I applaud their restraint - I did not have their self-control for which I will probably pay the price. But, I am angry at those that have despoiled this Forum and I will continue to voice my opinion.

I'm angry at the lack of good leadership.

Geoff

 

[GraceK]

If sarcasm was left out of responses, if dismissiveness was left out of responses, if competetiveness was left out of responses - people would feel LISTENED TO, HEARD and ACCEPTED even if their opinion isn't agreed with.

There is such a thing as agreeing to disagree - which I think is the generosity of spirit that Bob is referring to.

Unfortunately Grace we are not all evolved to the same level, either emotionally, nor in the ability to communicate clearly what is meant (hence the development of emoticons)
To suggest removal of our emotions from responses is in my opinion bordering on the absurd, how would you suggest one goes about divorcing oneself from fundamental drives ?

And from Bali's post " How can anybody post 300 replies in 8 months - that is 375 per month - over 10 per day. What are you - an expert? You joined like the rest of us to learn." Does this quote upset you, since the math would place you in this category also ?

I'm not at all suggesting we remove emotion from our posts, in fact, quite the opposite. What I am suggesting is that perhaps people read other peoples posts more carefully, consider their responses more carefully before they respond in a sarcastic or dismissive tone which only serves to make some posters feel that their opinions are not worth voicing. I personally use lots of emoticons to show what I'm feeling and most of the times it's or or :lol: or very rarely t's :x

What I was referring to was the habit of some people of responding instantly with sarcasm and dismissiveness and we are all familiar with the reason people use sarcasm and dismissiveness - they hope to put the other person down whilst raising themselves up in estimation and gaining support.

There are lots of people on this forum who've expressed similar opinions to mine and who have chosen to stop posting as a result of sarcasm, dismissiveness and challenging text from others. That leaves them with unexpressed opinions, misinterpretations of their postings and all because someone else thought this was texting competition, not a sharing forum.

That's how anger builds up and how anger then explodes onto the text screen - and those people are then reprimanded for the very few words they do manage to text. There's always an element of cause and effect isn't there? And if people feel their views have to be repressed, they will eventually explode - and who can blame them?

 

[Unbeliever]

I said llllllast night I wouldn't post again until the bans were lifted But this will be my last post ever here. I am not leaving because of any particular issue but because on he whole , it is no longer worth it for me.

It is quite difficult pphysicallly at imes for me to post and when I do , more often than not a thread will be derailed deliberately by someone wih an axe to grind or by a troll {they are often welcomed}.

Mainly I am going because I am bored by the same old arguments and people's enrenched positions which prevent them from keeping an open mind and tolerating newcomers.

After a while it is only the newcomers and those few kind souls who search out interesting news who make it worthwhile.
I used to do my best to advise newcomers but ohers did it better and I have to restrict the time I spend online .

There seems to me to be a very strange attitude here re these bannings. The people involved are being old -in efffect - to stop arguing and get back to work! But why should they? What's in it for them?

Most if not everyone here came here for their own sake. To find out more about the condiion and to seek support. Many then in turn
stayed around o help others. Because they are energetic , high powered individuals their opinions are epressed oo strongly , at times , for some people . I have often pointed this out to them. I considered that great progress had been made by everyone.

I had been struck over the past several months by the stress laid by these posters on the fac that they were only staing their own opinions and whatever method of controlling diabetes anyone successfully used was obviously best for them and they were to be ccongratulated for it. Apparenly this was not enough.

Surely it is obvious that only those with commitment and dedication will feel strongly enough to devoe many hours to answering the same questions from new members time after time? Why is any perceived over-enthusiastic expression from these people jumped on by the moderators when posters arriving here for the first ime with challenging and offensive posts are welcomed with open arms? Are they likely to be an asset o the forum?

Because of my own experiences I have probably posted most in he complications forum on retinopathy. I don't claim to be an expert and have never offered medical advice . All the necessary explanations are online for anyone to see and many here have posted useful links I can only offer my own experiences which as I have received a grea deal of treatment , is quite extensive.
With screening for retinopathy now being routine many more diabetics now find hemselves involved in his system at an early stage.
As with alltypes of screening there are false positives and matters requiring clarificaion.
Several of us have tried to assuage fears and I believe we have been quite successsful. of screening
Now appaently information about and discussion of complicaions is something which is not welcomed and posts , which sometimes take a great deal of effor o produce are likely to be deleted because hey do not meet "sensitivity " criteria!. This crieria being decided by someone with no knowledge of the condition.

I can see no point inposting if I have to consider the possible effect on some hypothetical child who might by some chance wonder onto the forum/

I do wonder why older mebers of he forum are seen as fair game for over-moderation while newer posters are free to mislead and offend.

apparently a desire o jhelp those with complications who come here seeking help is tantamount to terrifying people who are not ready for his information. Who is going to decide when they are ready? The new poster?
Sensitivity is a subjective concept . I feel that my idea of sensitivity will never mach that of the curren moderators so I will not post again.
I do not flater myself that I will be missed. few people are .
The banned members seem to be missed already. I know that I miss people like catherinecherub and Viv when they are unable to post for a while
Thanks to them and to everyone else who helped me when I came o this forum desperate because the NHS was no helping me at all but in fact making my condition worse. As a slim active T" I fell under heir radar.
Thanks also to the previous moderators Ken and Sue who advised me to reduce my sarchy carbs which proved o be he key o urning things around.
reduced carbing was not a new concept inroduced by the banned mebers as some may have been led to believe!

Best wishes to all for your health and happiness.

 

[librarising]

Unbeliever wtote
I said llllllast night I wouldn't post again until the bans were lifted But this will be my last post ever here. I am not leaving because of any particular issue but because on he whole , it is no longer worth it for me.

Thank you for all your contributions.
I've valued your presence.

Geoff

 

[lucylocket61]

GraceK is expressing her opinion, Bailibob is expressing his opinion,

everyone on here expresses their opinion and offers help, support and advice based on our own experiences and personality.

Nothing wrong with that.

Expressing oneself is called Posting. Its what we do on forums. Reply to that expression is called posting. It is also what we do on forums.

I think some people dont understand how forums works. They are a to-ing and fro-ing of conversation in written form. If posters dont want to be replied to, they should either not post on an open thread, but my private pm, or put Please Do Not Reply on their post.

Its like sitting down to dinner with a group of people and refusing to reply to anyone or talk, otherwise. which is silly.

 

[AMBrennan]

Have you read Bernstein's Diabetes Solution ?

Yes, I have. The blatant errors I was able to notice (e.g. He thinks that T1 is caused by "autoimmune events", which is obviously nonsense - hint: positive GAD antibody test sometimes used to diagnose diabetes means that you are, right now, killing beta cells) as well as blatant salesmanship (the entire first chapter is customer testimonials from 20 guys it happened to work for by pure chance) led me to conclude that it's best not to take it too seriously.

 

[GraceK]

GraceK is expressing her opinion, Bailibob is expressing his opinion,


everyone on here expresses their opinion and offers help, support and advice based on our own experiences and personality.


I think some people dont understand how forums works.

Its like sitting down to dinner with a group of people and refusing to reply to anyone or talk, otherwise. which is silly.

First line - agreed - we are expressing our opinions.
Second line - disagreed - I am not offering help or advice - I am offering only my opinions
Third line - agreed - some people don't understand how forums work
Fourth line - disagreed - it's attempting to maintain a standard of dialogue common to all and understandable to all in the hope that people will realise what's appropriate and what isn't where posting is concerned.

And when seasoned posters feel free to describe the complications of diabetes in a way which is distasteful and shocking then I do agree that moderators should intervene and explain the reasons why that's not acceptable.

Information is vital. How that information is put forward and expressed requires sensitivity. Anyone who doesn't understand that really doesn't understand how forums should work.

 

[AMBrennan]

Perhaps doctors aren't always the best people to decide. They don't have magic powers (sorry to disillusion anyone.)

Sorry, missed that line earlier: Yes, it's true that doctors do not have magical powers. However, they do have the training necessary to understand what constitutes, evidence, and why evidence is important. [This is the point where I like to mention that the evidence based approach to medicine gave us all modern treatments whilst theory-based medicine gave us bloodletting, bloodletting and more bloodletting]

By contrast, forum members by and large are preoccupied with theoretical arguments (e.g. quoting an observational study into cholesterol and mortality to disprove the meta-analysis NICE's recommendation of statins* is based on, or "How can you treat diabetes when you don't test", all low-carb and paleo diet stuff) and probably don't know all that much about statics (e.g. someone tried to win an argument the other day by quoting/fabricating a statistic but embarrassingly made up one that was unsuitable for proving his point).

So at the end of the day, it's very reasonable to go with the experts' recommendation when a forum member puts forward a conflicting idea.

* The misconception, presumably, being that the doctor prescribes statins because 1) high cholesterol is bad and 2) statins lower cholesterol. However, that's not the case; the doctor prescribes statins because they have been shown to be effective in appropriate studies (when people similar to the patient were given, fewer of them died compared to the group given placebos). The "cholesterol hypothesis" is only relevant to scientists working for Big Pharma developing new drugs.

 

[librarising]

AMBrennan wrote

Yes, it's true that doctors do not have magical powers. However, they do have the training necessary to understand what constitutes, evidence, and why evidence is important. [This is the point where I like to mention that the evidence based approach to medicine gave us all modern treatments whilst theory-based medicine gave us bloodletting, bloodletting and more bloodletting]

That'll be why I showed the GP I had subclinical hypothyroidism, when despite earlier pleas on my part nothing was done.
I love evidence-based. Shows up my GP (more than one) for the uninformed professionals they are. In my EXPERIENCE.
I would urge others to make their own evidence-based observations - that's not too blunt is it ?

Geoff
ps don't ask me to trust people who show me know reason to trust them without reservation.

 

[viviennem]

I am beginning to think in the same way as Unbeliever - I'm not sure I want to be around here any longer - and it saddens me greatly.

Just a note to those of you who have been around a year or less - there are a number of back-stories to this forum which you cannot possibly be aware of, but which on occasions can help somewhat in explaining the attitudes of individuals to each other. I agree that in some cases it can go too far - that's when I ignore it. Not giving a response to provocation can be much more annoying than snapping back!

At least in the case of the majority of Type 2s - we are all adults. It would be nice if we were also all rational human beings, but the world isn't perfect.

Cliche number --- : "An insult is like a drink; it only affects one if it is accepted" Robert Heinlein, Glory Road

Viv 8)

 

[GraceK]

I am beginning to think in the same way as Unbeliever - I'm not sure I want to be around here any longer - and it saddens me greatly.

Just a note to those of you who have been around a year or less - there are a number of back-stories to this forum which you cannot possibly be aware of, but which on occasions can help somewhat in explaining the attitudes of individuals to each other. I agree that in some cases it can go too far - that's when I ignore it. Not giving a response to provocation can be much more annoying than snapping back!

At least in the case of the majority of Type 2s - we are all adults. It would be nice if we were also all rational human beings, but the world isn't perfect.

Cliche number --- : "An insult is like a drink; it only affects one if it is accepted" Robert Heinlein, Glory Road

Viv 8)

Viv, this takes me back to the day I was born. I came into the world as the baby in the family, the youngest of two girls. By default I thought I would be loved, cherished and cared for and about.

I hadn't a clue I was an unwanted child. I hadn't a clue my parents had been fighting and arguing since the first week of their marriage and would continue that way for another 50 years. I hadn't a clue my big sister was a spoiled brat who thought the world revolved around her and who had already learned to take advantage of the situation and manipulate both parents and to assert her authority over me. My parents enjoyed fighting. My big sister enjoyed rebelling against them and getting her own way and I became very, very bored with the whole lot of them, very, very quickly and moved out at the earliest opportunity. :wink:

 

[Fraddycat]

Cliche number --- : "An insult is like a drink; it only affects one if it is accepted" Robert Heinlein, Glory Road

Viv 8)

I love that you quoted Heinlein! I quoted him yesterday, 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' There's no such thing as a free lunch