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An Ethical question relating to Libre...


Hmm - I'm afraid that all the answers you will get from now on, will be colored of all the thoughts brought up in the first question. The base in this question IS as a matter of fact, not different from the first one. In this case you exchange things directly. In the former case you also exchanged things. Only problem in the former case is, that you wave a red cloth, when you mention the word "sell", which includes money.
The action I would recommend: Do as you thought about doing from the beginning, as this will probably be the end result, in any case
 

If the individual is accepting a prescription for a Libre and not using it themselves, for their own arm, then they are not acting in good faith. If the NHS found out, the prescription would be withdrawn.

The same applies to people who regularly collect prescriptions and let them languish in a drawer, because they are afraid to admit that they don't use the medication (statins, bp pills, creams, pills and potions). Or people who collect a prescription made out to themselves and then pass it on to a friend or loved one.

I can understand why it happens, and I can even see myself doing it, if the circumstance occurred that it seemed to make sense.
But it doesn't make it right. And I would know that it wasn't right.
 
That then brings up the issue of passing unneeded insulin on to someone in need. It’s prescribed to you, you have extra, and another T1 has run out and can’t get any...
 
Now I'm beginning to think Tims asking on behalf of a "friend"............

As already mentioned, if you are prescribed something it is for a reason and for your sole use. Not using/taking said item yourself is wrong.
 
Mel dCP said:
That then brings up the issue of passing unneeded insulin on to someone in need. It’s prescribed to you, you have extra, and another T1 has run out and can’t get any...
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Swapsies Mel, you're only lending some until they can get some more and will 'pay' you back - similar to getting an emergency script from the pharmacist..........
 
In answer to the original post, this is fraud whichever way you look at it. Imagine a person obtaining ANYTHING on a prescription with the intention of selling it to someone else whether as a one off or on a regular basis. In response to the second scenario (what if you already had one and then decided to give it away), well yes, that is different. Imagine if we all decided to get extra boxes of test strips on our prescriptions with the intent of selling them off?
 
I'd been discussing it with someone who is an occasional Libre user and balks at the cost. Ethically I see no issue with it whatsoever as "morally", both PWDs end up with better care and better outcomes.

Legally it's a different case.

If, on the other hand, I was to convince my surgery to put the Libre money they would pay out towards Dexcom sensors, that would be within the rules, but would only result in better outcomes for me. Morally, as far as I'm concerned, that's not right. I think it would be an interesting conversation to have with the GP's surgery regarding the process.

It raises the interesting question of how you view "Right" in terms of outcomes, people and the law.
 
Mel dCP said:
That then brings up the issue of passing unneeded insulin on to someone in need. It’s prescribed to you, you have extra, and another T1 has run out and can’t get any...
Click to expand...

Yes. And especially since some drugs - including insulin - can be lethal in the wrong hands.

Its a minefield.
 
25 years ago my mates dog was on Humilin I same as me my mate struggled with the cost so I gave him my bottles with around a quarter left in, the dog got that but I'd have been throwing the bottle away at that point anyway, his kids got another couple of years from the dog and my waste wasn't wasted...

The original question? legally wrong, potential of losing the script, too complicated for me, but ethically/morally wrong? No not at all, just creative thinking
 

Nope. I'd say no change in my view, or how I feel "officialdom" could view it.

Prescriptions are for our personal use, not our chosen method of disposal.
 
DCUKMod said:
Nope. I'd say no change in my view, or how I feel "officialdom" could view it.

Prescriptions are for our personal use, not our chosen method of disposal.
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So what's your view on the question about giving insulin to someone who hadn't got any and was in need of it until they could get an emergency prescription? I would assume it is the same?
 
tim2000s said:
So what's your view on the question about giving insulin to someone who hadn't got any and was in need of it until they could get an emergency prescription? I would assume it is the same?
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That feels a bit different, but I would probably be suggesting they go to A&E or such.

Of course, as someone who has only recently started taking a medication regularly, I haven't found myself to be in a jam such as you describe.
 
Mel dCP said:
That then brings up the issue of passing unneeded insulin on to someone in need. It’s prescribed to you, you have extra, and another T1 has run out and can’t get any...
Click to expand...

Personally I don't see the parallel. What you're describing here is a potentially life saving situation, no?

So T1 to T1 ( meaning the receiver knows how to use the insulin sensibly) I would gladly help out without a second thought.
 
urbanracer said:
Personally I don't see the parallel. What you're describing here is a potentially life saving situation, no?
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But that could be the situation for this Type 2 also...at least in the long run...
Difficult questions don't have easy answers...
 
Trying to figure out how to do the same......wanting to print out reports for my upcoming pump Dr consultation
 
I don't think it matters that you are using your theoretical profits for a good cause. The ends would not justify the means even if the end as you point out, is improving the health of 2 people. It is still a lie.
Type 1s have the greatest need for the Libre and type 2s should get test strips or the libre in an ideal world too. This would be on the basis that they are using the libre to monitor how their diet/exercise impacts on their blood sugar levels whereas type 1s are using it to calculate basal and bolus doses. At present there are plenty of clinicians who do not treat with diet/lifestyle in any meaningful way thus it would not be helpful for those patients to get libre/test strips.
 
urbanracer said:
So T1 to T1 ( meaning the receiver knows how to use the insulin sensibly) I would gladly help out without a second thought.
Click to expand...
This demonstrates that where we draw the lines matters. If you are receiving insulin on prescription, for yourself, by nature of the model, giving it to someone else (let's face it, it's a lethal drug), whether they know how to use it or not, or whether they have their own prescription for it, breaks the stated point that:

Moderator edit to point out that this quote has been significantly changed by @tim2000s from talking about the Libre, to talking about insulin - which was not @Brunneria's intention, or context.
Brunneria said:
If the individual is accepting a prescription for Insulin and not using it themselves, [deletion] then they are not acting in good faith.
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Then on the second point:

urbanracer said:
Personally I don't see the parallel. What you're describing here is a potentially life saving situation, no?
Click to expand...

Just because the situation is a short term one, does that mean that the ethics/morals of the situation change? Especially if the Libre changes the way the person with T2 lives and results in them living longer at less cost to the country and allows them to be more productive?
 
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Tim, what you have described there is entirely different. If you are asking are there EVER circumstances in which people would break the Law ethically or otherwise, of course there are. If there is an emergency or a set of circumstances where there is a life or death issue, then literally anything can be justified. That is hardly the same as what you asked in your original post and I personally don't think that just because you might act in a certain way in an emergency that somehow you are being hypocritical by calling obtaining something by deception and giving it to someone else ethically wrong.
 
I don't think there is an ethical question here, if you can provide someone with a devise that will improve his health, so the opposite, not provide it will be the question.
I'm type 2 and manage to to maintain a perfect glucose level and stop injection insuline (for 10 months already) just by dieting and monitoring my sugar with FreeStyle Libre
 
urbanracer said:
Personally I don't see the parallel. What you're describing here is a potentially life saving situation, no?

So T1 to T1 ( meaning the receiver knows how to use the insulin sensibly) I would gladly help out without a second thought.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I’ve still got basal insulin in date that I don’t need in my fridge just in case someone else in need does. If I return it to the pharmacy it’ll just be destroyed anyway. Part of my post Brexit survival plan! I imagine we’ll be seeing a lot of “pay it forward” groups springing up on Facebook like our American friends rely on if there are distribution issues.
 
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