• Guest - w'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »

Dawn Phenomenon - a couple of CGM observations

tim2000s

Expert
Retired Moderator
Messages
8,936
Location
London
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Other
Dawn phenomenon is an oft discussed topic on the forum. Over the last couple of months I've been observing my readings on the Libre and have noticed a pattern relating to DP.

When I eat a carby snack before bed, I tend to see noticeably larger DP than when I eat nothing or a more protein or fat based snack. Even though my bg will remain similarly flat throughout my sleeping period, the different pre bed food types tend to result in different am results.

It's not 100% consistent and there are likely to be more factors to consider, but I wonder if anyone else has seen this?
 
Just don't eat before bed Tim, like you I did once use to eat supper but stopped this some years ago (mainly to control weight) so rarely eat later than 7pm now.
 
noblehead said:
Just don't eat before bed Tim, like you I did once use to eat supper but stopped this some years ago (mainly to control weight) so rarely eat later than 7pm now.
Click to expand...
Generally try to avoid it - some days after exercise, it isn't possible to avoid. Something carby is typically only 10-20g of carbs...
 
If I eat too much protein in my evening meal my DP kicks off about 3am. If not it kicks in around 30 minutes of getting up. I low carb so it doesn't seem to have an affect but a big roast dinner (protein mmmmm belly pork and crackling) on a Sunday affects me from 3am ish through until I get on the spin bike at 6.30. That batters it. If I don't it carries on until 11am ish.
DP seems to be so different for everyone. I think my liver has the idea I get chased by tigers and bears just after my first cup of coffee.
Other things that affect I find are what I have in store for the rest of the day. Exercise from the day before can also blunt my spike.
 
I am similar to @Mrs Vimes

I last eat at about 7pm with only water after that. My DP varies, but is most noticeable after a heavy protein evening meal, and especially if I have liver for some reason. My own liver must object to what it sees as cannibalism. The DP kicks in about 2 to 3am and seems to continue throughout much of the morning then drops before lunch. I have very few carbs for breakfast (under 8g which includes a drop of milk in my tea) but I get my worst spikes of the day. I am Type 2 diet only.
 
Hi Bluetit802, eating liver probably makes it worse because it actually does have sugar in? I think because this is where excess "stuff" is stored that can be the sugar dump from the liver?
I read somewhere that other organ meat can actually contain sugar. I avoid organ meat (bit of a wimp really as I can't cope with the thought of it). I also avoid black pudding (love it if I don't think what it actually is) because I've got spikes from it contains blood sugars.
I think I found the only diabetic pig once when my bloods shot up to 15 after eating it. (Actually it was something to do with bl@@dy air bubbles in my tubes as well).
If I eat breakfast I have a small amount of protein like 2 eggs cooked any way, or a piece of thigh chicken, love bacon, gluten free sausages.
Making my self hungry as I type.
I find exercising helps to use up some of the spike so the next day the spike flattens a bit. If I stop exercising the spikes get higher as the days go on.
 
Apologies, I have a thing about the word actually and am actually overusing it too much. Must actually stop.
 

There are no sugars in lambs liver, and less than 2g carbs per 100g. The carbs eaten at evening meal have no bearing on my DP because any rise after eating it has gone well before bedtime. The later rise during the night must be the protein element or some other factor nothing to do with food. I eat liver (and kidney) because they contain such a lot of essential vitamins and minerals, far more than most other food sources gram for gram. And I love it too!
 
Shudder - liver! I think I've got the science wrong (sos) but I have heard that organ meat like liver does give a bit of spike. Now it may be a higher glucneogenesis what's it thingy though. Kidney oh my god! X
 
Slightly off topic but just wanted to say what a great example of why CGM is so good!
Fortunately I don't get DP but I love seeing a nice steady graph through the night showing my basal level is right
 
I don't have much experience of any kind of liver dump other than I have noticed a pattern....if my BG drops below 4.8 withing an hour it goes up to around 6.1 for no obvious reason so I assume it is my liver kicking in as my body doesn't seem happy at anything lower than 4.8?
 
Having had a chance to cogitate on this one a little this morning, I wonder if the following holds true relating to DP (at least in my case). Remember, this is only a hypothesis.

Typically I eat relatively low carb. If I eat low carb before bed, or don't eat after 9pm, typically my overnight stays relatively flat until my basal starts to run out around 7.30am.

When I eat carbs after 9.30 due to being lower than I want to go to bed on, even with reduced insulin, typically I see a flat period then a raise around 4.30am.

My hypothesis is that in the first case, my body isn't running on glycogen and carbs, and therefore isn't trying to give me energy to get up by glycogen dumping because it is using fats.

In the second case, because I am on a carb metabolism, it decides I need carbs to get going in the morning and the liver dumps.

It's just a guess, but who knows?
 
I never thought I'd have to take into account my liver. Sometimes it feels like I need to take into account the weather as well.
Do you find this changes when you go from a work day to a weekend / day off?
 
Mrs Vimes said:
DP seems to be so different for everyone. I think my liver has the idea I get chased by tigers and bears just after my first cup of coffee.
Click to expand...
Mrs Vimes, I'm the same with all this - Xs protein => liver dump early morning - but principally I love your tigers and bears.
 
Hi, I eat a lot of liver, I'll have to check my BS levels the next time, never imagined liver may contain carbs or sugar,. It's usually Pigs Liver (medium rare) beautiful.

Neil
 
Daddys1 let us know would you please? My partner wants to eat this but I keep getting out of it by quoting this. Annoyingly I can't remember where I read it. I don't believe there is a huge amount involved but wherever I read this (CRAFT moment - can't remember a f@@@king thing - age related) said that there could be an affect /effect? (That one is just being a bit fick).
 
100g of beef liver has about 4.4g carbs, so not enough to worry most people. It is, also no higher in protein than comparable meats, so should be perfectly fine for you to eat with your partner....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn More.…