Desmond

I went on one this week and I was pleasantly surprised. I learned a lot about the mechanics of diabetes and the dietary advice was not so much a case of what you SHOULD eat but more of educating people as to what they COULD eat. There was no mention of the Eatwell Plate!

They had replicas of various foods such as pies, baked beans, cheese etc and we had to decide which fat group they belonged to. We then learned how each fat group impacted on our diabetes and the emphasis was on processed foods being not good, whereas butter, cheese, avos etc were better but in moderation.

Carbs were mentioned but only as part of the triad of crbs, fat and protein.

We were given a number of different ways of getting more exercise, where to go for extra support and much more useful stuff.

So I went expecting a battle and left feeling more knowledgeable about my disease and more confident that I could control it.

I did feel that there was a lot of emphasis on medication being the best route.

All in all, though, I felt it was worthwhile. Maybe things are done differently up here in Scotland.

How did you get on?

Hi @johnboy412000,

I went on a Desmond course Yesterday, started @ 10, ran Late till 5pm.
There was about 8 people on the course ranging from, I would say 35yrs to a gentlemen of 82yrs. A mixture of both men & women.

The two dietitians were clearly dedicated and I cannot fault them for that, they were also very informative as to the mechanics of Diabetes, but I personally have grave issues with the course.

Some of the facts which were given to the group I felt were misleading and not helpful. Eg they talked regarding portion sizes but who know what a portion size is?

1. They stipulated (on 2 occasions) that the normal range for non diabetic people was between 4 & 7mmol/L, clearly had got these figures confused with the nice guidelines for pre meal diabetics targets. They suggested that pre meal was oK for diabetics around 6 below 7 mmol/L.
2. They asked the group what their HbA1c was currently. and then went on to state that they would be OK if they got their levels down to within the range of an HbA1c of 43 & 53. This would be an OK level for them all.
3. They also discouraged self testing, and stated that for type 2s this was unnecessary providing they kept their HbA1c which would be tested for every 3 months between the stated figures of 43 & 53 all would be OK but no further testing was required
4. They then went on to state that Diabetes is a progressive disease and therefore it will slowly get worse.
5. One gentleman there had an HbA1c of 157 (the dietitians were aware of this). He had inadvertently been consuming Lucas aide up until arriving at his course. He asked the dietitians if he could continue eating his mashed potato, reply was "yes not a problem maybe just reduce the portion", but no portion size was even discussed. He went onto ask could he still have his Baked Beans on Toast, reply, "yes of course you can, maybe strain the sauce off" Again portion size was not discussed or mentioned looking at any carbs.
6. I showed them an advertisement of the Newly Launched EAT FAT book by Dr Trudy Deakin which there were not aware of, but did intimate that there maybe changes coming through as to recommendations of diet.

Knowing what I know now with regards to diabetes, I found parts of this course quite frankly 'Criminal' to tell people knowingly, false or misleading information. Even where I challenged a few points they made, they tried to explain the lack of giving the correct information and offering people an opportunity to make a difference to their lives, was that they are trying to offer an information based course that suits everyone. It was pointed out to me that not all people would want to take control, as I have done, or us on this forum and therefore it is very generic in the information given.
Personally I found this disgusting, I realize that it is not their fault, the dietitians, but the policy of the medical establishment, including the seemingly now 'U' turned Dr Trudy Deakin.

I'm sure there could have been more thought to these courses or at least developed them over time even to discuss portion sizes and what is relative.

Conclusion, yes these courses do help a little, but I believe they should point out to all attending that there is further they each individual can do if they we want to improve their diabetes outlook further, but they unfortunately suggested that they did not want people to be unhappy, therefore tell to eat what you want, preferably low GI and control the portions, 5 a day and you will be OK all in moderation.

Neil

daddys1 said:

Hi @johnboy412000,

I went on a Desmond course Yesterday, started @ 10, ran Late till 5pm.
There was about 8 people on the course ranging from, I would say 35yrs to a gentlemen of 82yrs. A mixture of both men & women.

The two dietitians were clearly dedicated and I cannot fault them for that, they were also very informative as to the mechanics of Diabetes, but I personally have grave issues with the course.

Some of the facts which were given to the group I felt were misleading and not helpful. Eg they talked regarding portion sizes but who know what a portion size is?

1. They stipulated (on 2 occasions) that the normal range for non diabetic people was between 4 & 7mmol/L, clearly had got these figures confused with the nice guidelines for pre meal diabetics targets. They suggested that pre meal was oK for diabetics around 6 below 7 mmol/L.
2. They asked the group what their HbA1c was currently. and then went on to state that they would be OK if they got their levels down to within the range of an HbA1c of 43 & 53. This would be an OK level for them all.
3. They also discouraged self testing, and stated that for type 2s this was unnecessary providing they kept their HbA1c which would be tested for every 3 months between the stated figures of 43 & 53 all would be OK but no further testing was required
4. They then went on to state that Diabetes is a progressive disease and therefore it will slowly get worse.
5. One gentleman there had an HbA1c of 157 (the dietitians were aware of this). He had inadvertently been consuming Lucas aide up until arriving at his course. He asked the dietitians if he could continue eating his mashed potato, reply was "yes not a problem maybe just reduce the portion", but no portion size was even discussed. He went onto ask could he still have his Baked Beans on Toast, reply, "yes of course you can, maybe strain the sauce off" Again portion size was not discussed or mentioned looking at any carbs.
6. I showed them an advertisement of the Newly Launched EAT FAT book by Dr Trudy Deakin which there were not aware of, but did intimate that there maybe changes coming through as to recommendations of diet.

Knowing what I know now with regards to diabetes, I found parts of this course quite frankly 'Criminal' to tell people knowingly, false or misleading information. Even where I challenged a few points they made, they tried to explain the lack of giving the correct information and offering people an opportunity to make a difference to their lives, was that they are trying to offer an information based course that suits everyone. It was pointed out to me that not all people would want to take control, as I have done, or us on this forum and therefore it is very generic in the information given.
Personally I found this disgusting, I realize that it is not their fault, the dietitians, but the policy of the medical establishment, including the seemingly now 'U' turned Dr Trudy Deakin.

I'm sure there could have been more thought to these courses or at least developed them over time even to discuss portion sizes and what is relative.

Conclusion, yes these courses do help a little, but I believe they should point out to all attending that there is further they each individual can do if they we want to improve their diabetes outlook further, but they unfortunately suggested that they did not want people to be unhappy, therefore tell to eat what you want, preferably low GI and control the portions, 5 a day and you will be OK all in moderation.

Neil

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Excellent write up daddys1. I've still got mine to go to.

Hi nice to meet you! I just received my Desmond letter yesterday so I will be going in March ! Hope it helps you and goes ok x

daddys1 said:

Hi @johnboy412000,

I went on a Desmond course Yesterday, started @ 10, ran Late till 5pm.
There was about 8 people on the course ranging from, I would say 35yrs to a gentlemen of 82yrs. A mixture of both men & women.

The two dietitians were clearly dedicated and I cannot fault them for that, they were also very informative as to the mechanics of Diabetes, but I personally have grave issues with the course.

Some of the facts which were given to the group I felt were misleading and not helpful. Eg they talked regarding portion sizes but who know what a portion size is?

1. They stipulated (on 2 occasions) that the normal range for non diabetic people was between 4 & 7mmol/L, clearly had got these figures confused with the nice guidelines for pre meal diabetics targets. They suggested that pre meal was oK for diabetics around 6 below 7 mmol/L.
2. They asked the group what their HbA1c was currently. and then went on to state that they would be OK if they got their levels down to within the range of an HbA1c of 43 & 53. This would be an OK level for them all.
3. They also discouraged self testing, and stated that for type 2s this was unnecessary providing they kept their HbA1c which would be tested for every 3 months between the stated figures of 43 & 53 all would be OK but no further testing was required
4. They then went on to state that Diabetes is a progressive disease and therefore it will slowly get worse.
5. One gentleman there had an HbA1c of 157 (the dietitians were aware of this). He had inadvertently been consuming Lucas aide up until arriving at his course. He asked the dietitians if he could continue eating his mashed potato, reply was "yes not a problem maybe just reduce the portion", but no portion size was even discussed. He went onto ask could he still have his Baked Beans on Toast, reply, "yes of course you can, maybe strain the sauce off" Again portion size was not discussed or mentioned looking at any carbs.
6. I showed them an advertisement of the Newly Launched EAT FAT book by Dr Trudy Deakin which there were not aware of, but did intimate that there maybe changes coming through as to recommendations of diet.

Knowing what I know now with regards to diabetes, I found parts of this course quite frankly 'Criminal' to tell people knowingly, false or misleading information. Even where I challenged a few points they made, they tried to explain the lack of giving the correct information and offering people an opportunity to make a difference to their lives, was that they are trying to offer an information based course that suits everyone. It was pointed out to me that not all people would want to take control, as I have done, or us on this forum and therefore it is very generic in the information given.
Personally I found this disgusting, I realize that it is not their fault, the dietitians, but the policy of the medical establishment, including the seemingly now 'U' turned Dr Trudy Deakin.

I'm sure there could have been more thought to these courses or at least developed them over time even to discuss portion sizes and what is relative.

Conclusion, yes these courses do help a little, but I believe they should point out to all attending that there is further they each individual can do if they we want to improve their diabetes outlook further, but they unfortunately suggested that they did not want people to be unhappy, therefore tell to eat what you want, preferably low GI and control the portions, 5 a day and you will be OK all in moderation.

Neil

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Great write up... But part of me is shocked at their recommendations. I shouldn't be shocked, as I received no advice when I was diagnosed 4 years ago except a really bad photocopy of the eat well plate. I just feel so sorry for these people, blue cause they could well end up where I did, with the medicine increasing and the diabetes levels greeting higher and depresssion and guilt settling in over everything I ate. I really am glad to have discovered this site.

Kezzer4321 said:

Great write up... But part of me is shocked at their recommendations. I shouldn't be shocked, as I received no advice when I was diagnosed 4 years ago except a really bad photocopy of the eat well plate. I just feel so sorry for these people, blue cause they could well end up where I did, with the medicine increasing and the diabetes levels greeting higher and depresssion and guilt settling in over everything I ate. I really am glad to have discovered this site.

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Hi Kezzer,

Yes it is shocking, and it was such a shame because they are a voice of authority on the day, so although I interjected I did it very cautiously as not to disrupt the course for the others as they clearly need the knowledge even though it does not go far enough in completely helping there circumstances.

There was a chef, aged approx early 40s who in part of a debate we were having during the course, had obviously picked up on the Low Carb comments from me. He then had a go at me, saying he effectively, that he wanted to continue to enjoying his treats and what he had been told on the course was what he was going to follow because it made sense and asking people to low carb would not be feasible. Unfortunately that statement is based on 'Diabetes will always Progress' as we a were told there and being told that it's OK to stay to stay between the number HbA1c of43 & 53. So he was a convert because they have the authority, it's such a shame.

Neil

daddys1 said:

Hi Kezzer,

Yes it is shocking, and it was such a shame because they are a voice of authority on the day, so although I interjected I did it very cautiously as not to disrupt the course for the others as they clearly need the knowledge even though it does not go far enough in completely helping there circumstances.

There was a chef, aged approx early 40s who in part of a debate we were having during the course, had obviously picked up on the Low Carb comments from me. He then had a go at me, saying he effectively, that he wanted to continue to enjoying his treats and what he had been told on the course was what he was going to follow because it made sense and asking people to low carb would not be feasible. Unfortunately that statement is based on 'Diabetes will always Progress' as we a were told there and being told that it's OK to stay to stay between the number HbA1c of43 & 53. So he was a convert because they have the authority, it's such a shame.

Neil

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Unfortunately Neil, there are a lot of misguided people out there, who hear only what they want to. I have some friends with t2 also who think my way of eating is nuts and even though I can show them my results and prove to them that it works and they can see I look better and feel better, they still prefer to live in their only little bubble, because the Dr said they could continue to eat that way.

Kezzer4321 said:

Unfortunately Neil, there are a lot of misguided people out there, who hear only what they want to. I have some friends with t2 also who think my way of eating is nuts and even though I can show them my results and prove to them that it works and they can see I look better and feel better, they still prefer to live in their only little bubble, because the Dr said they could continue to eat that way.

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Hell, how true is that!
My t1 next door neighbour whose grand daughter (20yrs old) works in a rest home with diabetics, when told about the weight I'd lost and my new diet (LCHF) well, I got the full monty from her as if she was reading from a book. She then told me I should be eating what I want but in moderation just like her Grandad does. I then turned to her and said "yes, but I don't want all the complications and pains that your grandad has had over the last 8 yrs." He suffers badly with his feet, bad circulation, throat problems etc etc. He has been told by his GP to change his diet but he tends to listen to the grand daughter. She just replied " well it's your life". With that she walked out and sat in another room.
I have since had my results from a blood test and my cholesterol and everything connected with it is perfect, blood pressure perfect, B S levels down from initial 27 to 5-7's range and my urine sample showed no signs of protein, glucose or keytones, so I think I must be doing something right.

@daddys1 that was pretty much my experience of the DESMOND course. A combination of out of date information and a group of people who pretty much wanted to be told they could go on as before , albeit with smaller portions. The underlying implication was we had all got fat through eating too much fat so despite diabetes being a disease of glucose regulation, everything would be fine if we ate baked spuds instead of chips and maybe stopped being so Johnny English and embraced rice instead of always spuds and Yorkshire puddings. Like you I did try with my take on low carbing but there's only so much you can say when ears are closed. I regularly see the overweight DN who ran the course dashing round the supermarket stuffing the pizzas in and her husband is a LADA!

Hi @cold ethyl ,

I really do think it is criminal, there tackled the testing question, or non testing for Type 2s by saying the NHS payed for testing initially but found that it's cost weighed out the benefits and therefore restricted testing to a very few. What they omitted to say was the testing was inefficient because the carbohydrates were included in the diet and that everyone was on a hiding to nothing with that advice.

Although, I mentioned that the diabetic nurses were very committed to helping everyone there, I felt there was the intellect missing that challenge anything, i.e. this is what we a have been taught about diet and diabetes, as one stated they had been a specialist diabetic nurse for 16 years, yet had not progressed any further with view over how the diabetes could be controlled any better.

They openly admitted that the diet offered at the moment may change, because along with the information I had supplied re; Trudy Deakin, and the questions they are forever getting at other DESMOND courses they expect the advice to change. They seemed quite blaze' that this should be the case, which sort of amazed me, as I would have thought you had to believe in what you were telling people in particular when it is a matter of life or slow death. Did not seem to worry them though.

Neil