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Dietician - Grrrrr!!!!

Good for you Hazehkm!
Next time you see her, challenge her to walk a mile with you.
She's probably not fit enough to do half that.
Sadly, she probably believes everything she told you, but could never cite a single scientific paper to corroborate her ideas. [they don't exist]
Hana
 
I agree that there is no single paleo diet, because of the diversity of the environments that we live in, we would all be eating different things depending on the seasons and the types of animals native to the environment. Because there are so many versions of the Paleo diet, I encourage people to adopt a Paleo / WAPF "template" one that focuses on food that is local, seasonal and biologically appropriate.
 
I have lost 1 and half stone in 5 weeks I saw the dietician she told me I have to eat bread and pasta ect for energy as without them I wont have energy ,, so I just took no notice and am carrying on doing my own low carb food , my bs are doing fine with what im doing , I don't need a dietician
 


You're doing really well.

Over 4 lbs a week is good going.
I've managed 3 stone in 4 and a 1/2 months now, so that's around only half as much.

What are you doing to low carb, are you eating a lot of meat and fat, or sticking to low cal and eating veg instead?
I could do with a few tips myself for the last stone to get to my target weight ahead of my Christmas target time!
 
EXACTLY the same as mine!!! Always banging-on about eating 3 or 4 times a day (by the size of her, she definitely does :? ) and dismissing my healthy diet as inadequate.

Do they have a hidden agenda to keep patients over-weight or something :eh:
 

Congratulations sandysan!

To be fair to the dietician, despite the fact they're using out of date dietary guidelines, if the patient had issues that could be attributed to their diet, they could be held accountable for advising patients to follow a diet other than those that were government approved.
With the amount of misinformation that's been put out into the dietary world, unless we start conducting large scale controlled experiments that take into account all factors, I can see why they'd be hesitant to recommend anything but the guidelines.

With all types of disease on the increase, I've been more inclined to believe latest research and personal experience that contradicts a lot of what we're being offered by the current dietary guidelines.

One such personal experiment is a personal trainer Sam Feltham who's been conducting some extreme personal experiments in order to highlight the problems with accepted guidelines.

So far, he's done two 21 day experiments to see how his body reacts to on certain diets.

In the first experiment over 21 days he consumed 5,794 calories calories of a high fat low carb diet of natural foods each day. According to generally accepted guidelines that a calorie is a calorie regardless of what form it comes in, he expected to put on weight, and he did, but he actually lost fat, waist circumference and gained muscle mass:

http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

In the second 21 day experiment he went on a scary carb binge that I don't think I'd be willing to myself through, and I can imagine it would hasten the onset of type 2 diabetes, where he ate 1 calorie less a day than the previous experiment at 5,793 calories a day with foods consisting of of cereal, bread, pasta, sugary drinks and chocolate (not that different from some of the population choosing to ignore all dietary advice).

Here's the less impressive, but nonetheless important results of that experiment:
As it was the last day I also weighed myself this evening at 97.3kg, giving me a mean for day 21 at 96.8kg, which is a massive +7.1kg up from the start and +0.1kg above the calorie formula on a 53,872 k/cal surplus.
Click to expand...
This evening’s waist measurement was 90cm giving me a mean for day 21 of 88.75cm, which is +9.25cm up from the beginning.
Click to expand...
http://live.smashthefat.com/5000-calori ... ge-day-21/

He's got more experiments lined up in the coming months one of them following the low fat diet currently recommended by most governments, so it would be worth keeping an eye on what he's doing.
I think more trials need conducting of course, but these kind of small scale experiments warrant more research into what's currently being recommended as a healthy diet.
 

Where did he say he gained muscle?
He does say it may be fat on the inside, not out.

" Even if you are slim but eat these fake foods you can still accumulate biochemical ‘limescale’ that can cause the aforementioned diseases, and just not have the symptom of being overweight or obese. These type of people are called TOFI’s or thin outside fat inside."

What he actually says is his body , at 15% fat, stores enough body fat to live on for 21 days.

So he lived off that, and there was no need for his body to process the extra fat until the actual end of his diet.

He also claims it's correct in his case, as a very healthy, fit, lean young person, not in overweight people, who he also claims can develop type 2 diabetes as a result of this.
I doubt he's fat on the inside, and I doubt I compare to him.
It's worth mentioning his lifestyle as well.
"I will be doing the same amount and type of exercise as before, cycling 3 times a week for 40 minutes along with 3 interval training sessions "

An important quote you omitted was

"It is completely possible to reverse these biochemical imbalances with a high carb natural foods diet as well as with a high fat natural foods diet, as this has been demonstrated with doctors from both sides of the carbs vs fat wars"

So he is also in support of a high carb diet, correctly done.

For a normal diet, not a 21 day crash diet, he recommends

" all the foods in the obtain plan as well as full fat dairy such as cream and butter, low GI fruit such as berries and citrus fruit and some low GI starches such as sweet potato and pulses."
So, carbs, but low GI.

All he actually says,
both diets, carb and low carb, same calories, gave weight gains.

The low carb used carbs from his body,
the carb diet didn't.

As we store carbs as fat very easily, and use them easily, the low carb diet used his reserves before his weight started to increase. The high carb didn't.
To maintain a healthy diet, eat a balanced diet after 21 days, and include a portion of healthy carbs.

It's all in your link.

and the carb diet, still very healthy, and one a dietician would recommend, just maybe a 1/3 of his portion size,

http://live.smashthefat.com/5000-calori ... ge-day-21/


So, not an advocate of a high fat low carb lifestyle, if fact more a supporter of a classic healthy diet.
 
That saddens and concerns me. However I'm slightly re-assured that you are questioning established mantra.

You asked someone else for lipids so posted my numbers to see if they're of any use to you.

HbA1c: 43.0 mmol/mol (6.1%)
Total Cholesterol: 3.2 mmol/L
HDL Cholesterol: 0.90 mmol/L
LDL Cholesterol: [no result]
Triglycerides: 1.1 mmol/L
Creatinine: 131.0 umol/L
eGFR: 54.0 ml/min

These results from a week before my heart attack.

Despite these good numbers, a low carb (but not high fat diet), regular training, as fit as the proverbial butchers dog, I had a heart attack early July. Hey ho. Apparently hereditary. I'm 55. My father died at 57 and his 4 brothers, my uncles, before they were 60. Consultant told it's only because I was fit that it wasn't curtains for me as well.

I've mentioned on here before that my GP and DN are fairly progressive in that they have a "do what works for you" rather than dogmatic "you will do" attitude. They encourage patients to research and learn all about their issues.
Consequently both GP and DN were happy with low carbing and HbA1c level.
Unfortunately that attitude ends at the surgery doors, the hospital have same old, same old mantra.

My health area run cardiac rehab courses and one of the appointments on my schedule was with a dietician. Despite not being overweight she suggested that I immediately stop my "unhealthy" low carb diet and follow the standard carb laden recommendation. Normally I would have said "no way" but having just had a heart attack I thought perhaps best to follow advice.

I followed said advice for 7 weeks, put on a pound a week so was half a stone heavier when I went back. I felt sluggish and lethargic especially in the evening. I put it down to heart meds but know now it was carbs. Now here's the bit that REALLY bloody irritated me - "Are you certain you were following the diet, didn't perhaps cheat a little?" Seriously? Ask her to explain exactly what she meant. I then thanked her and left. Back to my old way of eating and lost 10 lbs in 5 weeks, so a couple of pounds below where I started. Be interesting to see what my HbA1c is for this period. I have gliclazide and metformin prescribed but don't need the glic when low carbing but needed 40g twice a day when eating as recommended. When low carbing my levels are fairly constant, except for a little high in the morning but on the recommended diet they were all over the place.

Now one aside to the whole saga - and yes, I did judge by appearances. Unfortunately I was correct . . .

I expect to see my car salesman neighbour drive a nice car, a personal trainer to both be and look fit, a tattooist to have tattoos - you get my drift. I think it's fair to expect my dietician to also look the part?

Cheers, John
 
douglas99 said:
Where did he say he gained muscle?
He does say it may be fat on the inside, not out.
Click to expand...

You're right, he didn't mention it in that article, I'm sure I've read it elsewhere on his site, I'll try and find the page.

douglas99 said:
So, not an advocate of a high fat low carb lifestyle, if fact more a supporter of a classic healthy diet.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree, he's more in support of a healthy lifestyle, what's he's highlighting here is the junk a lot of people are eating on daily/weekly basis, I don't expect the low carb lifestyle would be the one size fits all, but it's a good counter to the "carbs are essential in any diet" camp.

Although he does state in this article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09 ... _hp_ref=tw
 
Low carb high fat is the way to go! It's easy to stick to and doesn't leave you hungry! WHen I have a day when I eat more carbs than I want to I feel rubbish!
Dieticians seem to want you to be reliant on them and fail and therefore be in need of their dodgy advice. Then they can send you back to your Dr for lots of lovely new meds - because we are all "sick" don't you know?
Well sod that! I'll do what works for mr thankyou very much!
 

So there's a book recently published that can shed more light on the murky waters of cholesterol, not sure if it's been mentioned before but you can get it on amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cholesterol-Cla ... 1936608383

There's also some information on one of the authors website here:
http://www.cholesterolclarity.com/

Although I've yet to read it myself, I've heard good things about it.
 
Signs
My OH has a horrible familial history of early heart disease so I try to keep up with research. I have read J Moores book
JM has a very high total cholesterol level of which one of the very briefly quoted experts he uses in the book said

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-66n11pqJGyA/U ... +on+TC.jpg
Somehow this gets ignored in his book.

My OH is now 62, for the last 12 years he has taken a fenofibrate. He has had a BMI around 23 with about 14% fat , done a fair amount of exercise.( running up to marathon distance, lots of gardening in a very large garden) He eats a lot of fruit, veg, real whole grains, olive oil, fish, chicken etc . His red meat and sat fat are limited . As a type 1(.5) diabetic I share his lifestyle.
I don't know how long his lifestyle will protect him , I only know that I feel that it is the best sort of diet/lifestyle for him both on terms of quality of life and efficacy so far; he is more than 10 years older than his father and Uncles were when they died. His older brother actually had an MI in his mid 50s, that's what lead to the suggestion that it was a familial condition. He is also still alive with a similar lifestyle. (though a bit less vigorous, he plays lots of golf)
There is obviously no certainty.....

One figure on your results does stand out is your kidney function. I presume your GP is keeping an eye on that.

I was going to answer NeilBlackwood on Sam Felthams N=1. There were several points but I'll leave it at 2 which s probably too many.
1) Nuts were well over 50% of the calories in his diet.
Check the calorific value. This was a well publicised paper (almonds about 30% less than the value that Sam gave them. Older papers also suggest that other nuts may also be less calorific than Atwater values suggest.) http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/96/2/296.full
2) the old canard of 3,500 cal =1lb of weight. It's to simplistic, for a light video see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGP3NbP7O2w
 

Sorry to hear about your OH's familial history of heart disease Phoenix, I would be doing all I could to research into what diet would be most appropriate for my OH if she were to have cholesterol issues, and thanks for the information.

I've not really been paying attention to total cholesterol levels ever since reading about the HDL/Triglyceride ratio being a more predictable indicator of risk.

I took to twitter to find out what Dayspring has been saying more recently, as the image you posted read '10 months ago'.
Something I've noticed is that Dayspring and Moore have been exchanging tweets for quite a while and although in agreement about most things, they' appear to have different stances on LDL-P size, and acknowledge we don't fully understand the risks/meaning of particle size in different genetic groups:
https://twitter.com/livinlowcarbman/sta ... 0980616193

There was some discussion between Dayspring and Moore whilst Moore was attending a conference @ the American Society of Bariatric Physicians which included Peter Attia (whom I hope will help establish some basic scientific truths - http://nusi.org/):
https://twitter.com/livinlowcarbman/sta ... 4206202882

From what I understood from the conversation, according to Attia, who currently recommends low carb for 75% of the population with cholesterol issues who are predisposed to become insulin resistant or already have IR/diabetes, the remaining 25% wouldn't need to follow a low carb diet. Along with others, I'm hoping Moore can arrange a debate including Attia and Dayspring to discuss the differences in opinion (Daypring appears to consider Attia in high regard).

There's also an article that Daypring shared regarding low carb, which. in my opinion, rules out all whole grains for diabetics:
https://twitter.com/Drlipid/status/350297269049888768

I'm hoping that NUSI will aid the creation of improved dietary recommendations (which will undoubtedly be different for certain genetic groups) as many scientists belonging to the organisation have differing hypotheses and therefore can hopefully achieve better clarity on common held beliefs regarding what constitutes a healthy diet.

I also wondered if you've read these pages:
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/the- ... rol-part-i

Seems to be quite in depth, I've not yet had chance to read all of it, so I'll leave you to take a look over it, if you haven't already.

I've adopted a WAPF / Paleo-esque diet for the previous year or so, because, I believe, despite the fact that some of us humans think we've evolved from the our neanderthals cousins, I doubt our biological processes have evolved to effectively assimilate certain incorrectly prepared grains of various types (hence an increase in gluten intolerance/celiac sensitivity, chrons, IBS etc.) and overly processed vegetable oils that have an alternative use as fuel for diesel engines. Whilst I don't live in the same environment as our ancestors, I've chosen to eat foods closer to what would be available before farming. This includes British seasonal veg and fruit (although obviously farmed) and animal products that are free range where possible. Obviously I can't avoid the fact that nearly all the produce I buy is farmed and therefore isn't going to be a direct equivalent of what our Paleo ancestors would have eaten, because of selective breeding of animals/fruit.

The main differences between what I eat and what's recommended in government dietary guidelines is that I eat a lot fewer carbohydrates (270g recommended, I probably eat less that 50g most days) in all forms, but especially grains of any form. I'm also likely to eat well over the amount of saturated fat recommended by the government, and although I've not been overweight (used to average about 85kg a couple of years or so ago), I've lost a small amount of weight (2kgs) since adopting the diet, I'm don't always eat healthy, I'm just much more mindful of what I eat.

With regards to Sam Feltham's experiment, I hadn't seen the breakdown of foods that he ate over the 21 day LCHF experiment:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sam-fel ... 50869.html

I'm quite surprised at the (in my view) large proportion of nut consumption, with nuts being seasonal. He's getting a majority of calories/fat from them (even taking into account the 30% less calorific content), whereas I eat nuts much less regularly, most of my fat will come from fatty meats, butter. ghee, duck fat, coconut oil etc. This is as since I've been researching consumption of omega 6 to omega 3 ratios and how a ratio of 1:1 of omega fats more likely to have been consumed by our ancestors (Vegetable oils being the main culprit: http://chriskresser.com/how-too-much-om ... ng-us-sick). Now, Sam's experiment (carried out long term) would have likely caused a increase in omega 6:3 ratio, something I'm going to get into discussion with him about, and try to find out it was a deliberate choice or not. Considering he had a greater intake of omega 6 over omega 3, his results are slightly more impressive to me, although I'm now interested to see an experiment following a LCHF diet of a less nutty consistency.

I agree that the calorie principle isn't quite right, which is why I'm interested in a repeat experiment where nuts were featured much less prominently and fat calories came from meat/jars of ghee/coconut oil, that's something I could get into!

Below are a few links here where a couple of doctors have ended up veering towards low-carb or Paleo because standard dietary advice wasn't working for them, and looking around me, it seems a lot of the population seem to having similar symptoms of a biologically inappropriate diet:

http://youtu.be/UMhLBPPtlrY
http://youtu.be/KLjgBLwH3Wc
 
Hi everyone! Sorry, I've not been on here recently, been super busy - so I missed all these posts, including the one from the dietician, which was certainly an interesting read.

With regards to the make-up of my diet, it's certainly not loaded with meat and high fat. I would say the bulk of my diet is vegetables - steamed, no butter or anything like that - I have them as they come. I also eat a lot of fruit. I have lean meat (a reasonable sized, weighed, portion of chicken) or fish maybe 2 - 3 times a week, and an egg for breakfast at the weekends. I like a bit of cheese with fruit sometimes but I limit it to twice a week. I also make homemade soup - no cream, butter or potatoes in it - it's tomato based and I bulk it up with lentils/pulses, and add spices to give it a kick... and it's delicious, filling and I'm looking forward to it during the winter as it's very warming. I make sure I drink plenty of water - and the only other thing I drink is black coffee - nothing in it. I use herbs with my cooking to add flavour, I have switched all my cookware so that I need minimal oil - I use 1 cal spray most of the time - and when doing a stir fry, lemon juice and soy sauce is a fab combination and adds a delicious flavour to chicken and nice vegetables. There's no need for heavy oil or processed sauces out of jars.

Now, I have a couple of interesting updates/bits of information, with particular reference to the low carb thing.

First of all - last week I had my appointment with the DN and it was confirmed that my blood sugar levels are now back at NORMAL and I DO NOT need medication. I was thrilled to bits with that and surely it HAS to be the healthier and preferable choice. I've now lost 3 and a half stone - well - just over that - and the DN was extremely impressed! She actually said she wanted to put me in front of her other patients as an example/inspiration! I do like my DN - she has been very supportive and has allowed me to take control of this myself and show just what can be done when you do your own research and find a healthy way forward. So that's all good.

With regards to the energy thing and how we need carbs for energy - I honestly believe from my own experience - that this belief comes from the crash everyone has for the first couple of weeks when coming off carbs. Very few people will make it beyond a few days - they have the crash, feel rough and tired - decide they NEED the carbs for the energy and go straight back on them. However, I am here to say, that if you push through that crash - when you come out the other side of it, your energy returns to normal and in fact is BETTER than on carbs. When you follow a diet like mine you don't experience the spikes and crashes you get with starchy carbs and sugar. It all evens out and even more, you don't crave the carbs because it's only the carbs that make us crave more - it's not real. The same applies to refined sugar - first couple of weeks while you stop it, you feel rough but then when you come out the other side - WOW! You feel amazing and the cravings are SIGNIFICANTLY reduced - almost zero.

Allow me to share a little experience from the last couple of days which to me - proves this point. I was away at a works conference yesterday - it was an all day thing. The lunch that was put on was essentially carb hell! Pasta, potatoes, more pasta and well... even more pasta! Due to speakers over-running, lunch became a quick affair and so I didn't have time to go querying with the hotel if someone could rustle something up for me to suit my diet. So against my better judgment, for the first time in months, I caved and allowed myself some carbs just so I got to eat SOMETHING as it was the only thing on offer all day apart from biscuits and sweets and they were DEFINITELY out of the question. So I had the carbs... not a lot... I didn't finish it - but I had enough. Now firstly - I have to say - having been off carbs like this for some time and following a very fresh and healthy diet - it felt so disgusting and alien to eat this stuff, I found myself wondering why I ever ate it before - but that's that. The important bit came after that - and relates to the needing carbs for energy thing. As I say - on my normal diet I feel fine, I have plenty energy, I can work out consistently for solid periods of time, I feel good. Yet after having the carbs... oh dear! My energy levels slumped, I felt sluggish and my concentration in the afternoon conference session was significantly diminished. As I got the train home ... the remainder of the effects kicked in... headaches, sweats, nausea, stomach pain, my legs felt like lead, I felt SOOOOOO ill - and it literally felt like I'd taken some kind of awful drug and was going through withdrawal! I've had to drink bottle after bottle of water today to try and flush it out my system. I've never been so happy to see a bowl of fresh steamed veggies in my life! I was literally CRAVING fruit, veggies, water... anything fresh and healthy I could find.

After that - I'm sorry, but there isn't a dietician in the world who could tell me that eating starchy carbs is beneficial to my body. Since taking them out my diet I've lost all this weight, I feel better than ever, and my diet is full of fresh, healthy, nutritious food that keeps me satisfied - and keeps my diabetes under control. That, frankly, is all I need to know. If you eat something and it makes you feel as awful as I did last night - I'm sorry, but that isn't good and as far as I'm concerned, it's my body protesting and telling me I shouldn't be eating that.

My overall diet is healthier than it's been in years and I'm prepared to assert that it's healthier than most people's diets (in the general population that is). Lean meat, proper portion sizes, loading on fresh vegetables and fruit, occasional small measured portion of low fat cheese, lots of water... nothing processed... I feel fantastic and am fitter than ever... and I exercise regularly. I'm sure there are people who would assert that my diet needs the carbs to be properly healthy - but given my experience above, I would strongly disagree and I consider my diet to be as healthy as it can be.

To anyone who is pushing to manage their condition through diet only - go for it - take control, do it strictly for 3 months and watch the difference. Then ask for your blood to be re-checked. It's YOUR body, you are in control, and while I don't advocate anyone being foolish, I do believe (and know for a fact) that not all medical professionals get it right; you have a right to question things and to make decisions that are right for your body. I would agree that resistance probably comes when we challenge advice with sound evidence that we are right and they have no answer for us... but that doesn't mean we shouldn't challenge information that we believe to be wrong. I'm a believer in questioning EVERYTHING - do your OWN research, find what works for you and if you can get your bloods/condition under control through healthy diet... I say go for it!
 
My diet sounds similar to yours, but I don't avoid carbs per se.

I do eat (by your description) the foods you eat, low fat, healthy, but I do have carbs.
Healthy carbs (for me)

My bs is back to normal, I've lost 3 stone, but I can cope with carbs when pressed.
I find it's more important to eat little and often, keep portion size down, and work from that.

edit

as an example, through necessity, my diet last weekend was, having been awake for 28 hours.

2 & 1/2 digestives
1 & 1/2 slices brown toast
75g of steak flavoured crinckle crisps.
2 rounds white toast.
4 pork sausages, and a slice of rye bread.
a lot of coffee, and a couple of glasses of a fairly sweet, probably sugary drink.

I was ok.
 
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