Exercise and fasting levels

Hi there! As you know high FBG is a common problem. I have had it too with exactly the same sorts of figures you quote using a NO carb diet and 3 x 40 lengths of a biggish pool per week and 10 min daily workouts. FBG highest of the day. Very frustrating.

I now have the solution - but not everyone agrees with it - especially objectionable to American cousins. A moderate intake of red wine from a good chateau (and therefore unsweetened) or dry white wine. Note: Must be Dry! That has not only dropped my FBG to the 5s - but helps keep my BG down all day. Note: I only take the wine in the evening whilst relaxing and having my no carb food (eat quite a fair amount of protein/cheese). I usually take 4 - 5 glasses (3/4 bottle). It is, of course, also a pleasant way to relax especially if watching the TV or catching up with work or reading. It is a little expensive. But, now I know why my endocrinologist told me NOT to cut alcohol out of my low carb diet! I have to increase the exercise to burn off the extra alcohol calories which is a bind...but it's all worth the effort.

By the way your readings sound great - nothing to worry about I wouldn't have thought.

I think when we are new to this we obsess a bit.... I know I do...

I was very excited to find this thread, as I have a very similar profile to seadragon and donnadoobie - complete with the same high cholesterol donnadoobie has, and frustration with FBG, and not quite being able to get to the 30s HBA1c/'normal BG levels. (And BakedAlaska's understanding of the positive role alcohol can have for relaxing of an evening and lowering/ the next morning's BG!)

Since exercising at a much higher level with H.I.T.-sprints, and regular bench-pressing and/or ab exercises, at the same time as low-carbing, I have seen my FBG rise to mid 6s, from an initial happy FBG 5-point-something target for a couple of weeks when I first started seriously low carbing in July. (I had been 50-100-150g carbing before that I think - not sure as I wasn't counting, but probably depending if I was eating my beloved sweet potatoes/kuumara.) (Sigh.) Anyway. Now the prediabetic level of the low to higher 6s, with some drops to healthier BG during the day post-meal (bizarrely! but not for folk with Dawn Phenomenon/liver dumping issues I suppose.)

I feel like I have an intimate, ongoing and unhappy relationship with the mechanisim/s in our livers that no longer responds to insulin (with insulin receptors that aren't there or not working?) or there isn't enough insulin,although personally I don't think that not enough insulin is the situation for diabetics such as us - as we CAN get our BGs down to healthier levels - if only our liver would play non-diabetic ball! Which is our cross to bear? I live in hope this improves with time.

The diabetic cross we are bearing seems to be the consequence of our livers responding to even small fatty liver levels (which is Prof Taylor's theory of T2D development also) mucking everything up. It's complicated! I can't really get my head around it at one time all the mechanisms are so complicated. I have found these three mechanisms at least that contribute to diabetic DP/leaky livers/liver dumping diabetics. (Don't ask me to talk about these over dinner! I won't remember them! ;-).) But the genetic disposition to T2D that is talked about is more than likely a genetic disposition to being very sensitive to fatty liver, for diabetics like us at any rate. The ol' fat around the middle thing. (At the same time as being quite physical or even athletic - as we are? I would say so.)

The role of Acrp30: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC209474/
The role of the FOX6: http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/blog/healing-leaky-livers/
The role of CRTC2: http://consumer.healthday.com/circu...sugar-disables-insulin-off-switch-613284.html

Why switching to burning fat - ketogenisis - helps: http://dtc.ucsf.edu/types-of-diabet...e-body-processes-sugar/the-liver-blood-sugar/

Which is why I think we need to 'stand by' and give our bodies time? if they/our livers are going to heal in this way. If they can! Another way of thinking about it, which is how I see it, is that it took me three decades for my liver to so powerfully begin to malfunction (I had signs of insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome from my mid 20s, but be ******** if I ever heard either of those phrases or understood that back in the day!). (I doubt that my GP did either! In fact I know she didn't or she would have mentioned it. She DID keep checking my BG levels though, as she obvilously knew the risk for T2D. But I wasn't seeing her in the two years when my body tipped over into diabetes.) If I can get normal functioning of my liver again, maybe it is going to take a while?

And living in hope isn't a bad thing?

I am waiting to see if I can deplete my liver of the fat, if that is indeed the issue, over time, will help my liver regain proper function of that awfully complex blood glucose regulating system. I am doing it with I.F.ing and periodic fasting - gently! Or as gently as possible. Over time. And then - as many of us diabetics trying out various things - to wait and see.

And now I can follow you guys in your getting as-healthy-as-possible journey too! As you struggle with the same diabetic issues as I am...

I also think there's a lot of hit and miss in it all - and we should certainly not obsess over the odd high one. For example having come off meds lost 13KG and been averaging out at around 6.1 with loads of 5s and never anything in the 7s I got a random reading of 9.4 the other day. Yikes - I nearly threw the meter down the bog and reached for the Glucophage!. Know what I had done? Simply enjoyed one small water size glass of so called "sugar free" grape juice.

And liver. Yeah - the dear old liver is a law unto itself - but the poor chap has to do a multitude of complex functions and tends to stay healthy despite the **** we throw at it. I think of it like Gordon - the old locomotive in Thomas the Tank Engine....

My nephrologist told me that the lifelong abuse of Gordon with the wonderful wines and spirits of the world had appeared to make no difference to happy functioning. So, I hold by my theory that a wee dram last thing at night or a couple of glasses of dry red wine with supper or a couple of cans of Heineken does the trick. Since I started this regime my FBG has been as low as any in the day - whereas before it was always the highest. I think late night protein snacks can also help a bit but didn't always work for me - I couldn't rely on it - but alcohol seems very reliable. Never thought I'd be taking it medicinally - but I guess that's how it all began.

By the way - try going out for a really normal nice dinner (but obviously without carbs) - seafood starter with a rich and creamy sauce, chicken and veg casserole in thick mushroom sause, and glutton's helpings of chocolate pud and then another helping of a strawberry gateau. BUT have a glass of wine with each course and you might be surprised by what happens when you get home. (E.g PPBG = 2 hours after that indulgence was 6.4 - Wahey!)

Finally do avoid sex. Pre sex BG 5.2 Post sex BG 7.2. We also tested my g/f who is non diabetic and she had a similar rise from 3.4 to 4.9. Those naughty hormones love to see you BG cum up. (forgive the pun)

To be honest Donnadoobie, I wouldn't put it down to dodgy genetics!

By the sounds of it you inherited a body type that is strong and athletic (I'm the same) - and the very thing that gave you that gymnast's and dancer's body and ability, gave you the vulnerability to metabolic dysfunction. That is not a dodgy thing! And this is true for ethnic groups that are/were particularly slender also. Or ethnic groups that were lean and muscly (which is partly my situation.) Rather than dodgy genetics we are talking inheriting genetics that suited and thrived in a very different world! A world without trans fats and added sugar, especially in the huge amounts we are consuming these days, not even to mention high fructose corn syrup. (And for the non-European part of my genetics - a world without dairy and grain. And a world without dairy and grain is at the background of all humanity, so the theory and idea goes.) And a world where we inherited the ability to store fat extremely well during times of food scarcity and famine, in a time and place without famine and with excess carbohydrates! Because our forebears had that type of constitution is partly why we are here today to tell our own currently sorry tale.

I can't believe it now, but I really didn't make that association, and I guess you didn't too? Who that we know did?! It's only because we are a part of the population that REALLY falls foul of the food environment we grew up in, and live in now, and the very dodgy nutritional guides that serve the interests of the food industry and not us at all. And definitely not the likes of us with our particular bodily make-up. This type of bodily make-up served our ancestors very well, after all. And it served the millions and millions of people who are falling foul of our current global food environment right now, in times past. And the not that long ago past, either.

We didn't know this before we got T2D. And we know now only because we DID get T2D. But we are not alone. Not by a long shot!

If you are interested, I read a couple of books on this subject - "The Story of the Human Body: Evolution, Health, and Disease" by Daniel E. Lieberman, and is a very good read. Another is a translation from my current stamping ground of Sweden:
"Food and Western Disease: Health and Nutrition from an Evolutionary Perspective" by Staffan Lindeberg. That one is a bit more academic, but has really good stuff in it. Both talk at some length about our own evolution-and-current-conditions mismatch-disease - diabetes.

Yay for our great genes!!!! Boo for the current food environment!!!!

bakedalaska said:

I also think there's a lot of hit and miss in it all - and we should certainly not obsess over the odd high one. For example having come off meds lost 13KG and been averaging out at around 6.1 with loads of 5s and never anything in the 7s I got a random reading of 9.4 the other day. Yikes - I nearly threw the meter down the bog and reached for the Glucophage!. Know what I had done? Simply enjoyed one small water size glass of so called "sugar free" grape juice.

And liver. Yeah - the dear old liver is a law unto itself - but the poor chap has to do a multitude of complex functions and tends to stay healthy despite the **** we throw at it. I think of it like Gordon - the old locomotive in Thomas the Tank Engine....

My nephrologist told me that the lifelong abuse of Gordon with the wonderful wines and spirits of the world had appeared to make no difference to happy functioning. So, I hold by my theory that a wee dram last thing at night or a couple of glasses of dry red wine with supper or a couple of cans of Heineken does the trick. Since I started this regime my FBG has been as low as any in the day - whereas before it was always the highest. I think late night protein snacks can also help a bit but didn't always work for me - I couldn't rely on it - but alcohol seems very reliable. Never thought I'd be taking it medicinally - but I guess that's how it all began.

By the way - try going out for a really normal nice dinner (but obviously without carbs) - seafood starter with a rich and creamy sauce, chicken and veg casserole in thick mushroom sause, and glutton's helpings of chocolate pud and then another helping of a strawberry gateau. BUT have a glass of wine with each course and you might be surprised by what happens when you get home. (E.g PPBG = 2 hours after that indulgence was 6.4 - Wahey!)

Finally do avoid sex. Pre sex BG 5.2 Post sex BG 7.2. We also tested my g/f who is non diabetic and she had a similar rise from 3.4 to 4.9. Those naughty hormones love to see you BG cum up. (forgive the pun)

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Lol re avoiding sex, Bakedalaska. Good luck with the popularity of that BG-diabetes treatment recommendation!

I'm with you on the dinner out. One of the most fabulous post-meal readings I have had since diagnosis, recently, was after a lobster meal with just the right amount of champagne for me, served with a fabulous amount of good conversation with loved ones. Big cheers!

Yes...about the sex I was tongue in cheek (oooops
But it is interesting how it raises the BG.

I guess at the end of the day exercise comes in many forms

Wendy...sounds like you might benefit from portion control rather than my no carb solution. I mainly took the route I did because I also needed to lose a lot of weight. I was 17Kg overweight. I am still working to get off the final 5Kg.

Sounds to me as if you are pretty much in range. If you are overweight I think you may be able to get ris of any abnormalities by a portion reduction and lowish carb diet. I wouldn't worry about fats too much unless you have a cholesterol risk.

Morning HBG is a common irriataion for many of us - but it is caused by so many factors - hormones, liver dumping etc. I have found nothing much to help, though alcohol certainly has been the best because it prevents liver dumping. Problem is it is a toxin and can cause other problems. Pure cocoa (a good brand) taken without milk last thing has helped as has a small high protein snack of sardine, meat (a sausage or some salami). This apparently prevents liver dumping. If you exercise after a high Morning BG your BG will go up because the liver dumps more.

It's a trick business - good luck!

I would say though - there is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to adjusting diet and exercise to treat diabetes/be as healthy as possible. I love to read other folks methods and routines - like yours BakedAlaska - but I know that would and does not suit my constitution at all.

For me to be reasonably active I can't portion control - just doesn't work. (Not enough energy.) And me and my bod are happier being active, therefore eating whatever and however much I want. Naturally - being T2 diabetic - I am highly carbohydrate intolerant. So as long as I can keep those carbs down, I'm fine with a stable weight, and more importantly - stable energy to be able to get out there and move! Which is all good for my health.

I did experiment one morning with doing my squats and ab exercises (with Jackie Taylor) in the morning in a fasted state, ie before eating. It was a disaster! Never mind a liver dump - I felt like I had lead limbs. Won't do that again.

I always eat when I come home from a workout (bench pressing, walking, or one of my H.I.T. 'sprints'). (I put 'sprint' in inverted commas cos it ain't very fast!) I eat LCHF, with a tendency to higher protein than classic LCHFing. Again, to be active, I think I need it. I would HATE to deliberately eat smaller portions.

bakedalaska said:

I have a similar problem. Diagnosed two months ago - lost 28lb and exercising every day (20 mins stairs and weights) and swimming 30 lengths x 3 times a week. Did well at first but never cracked the early morning high. Other BGs I can pretty much regulate with exercise. For example if I am at 6.5 and swim 30 lengths I can pretty much guarantee I will drop to 5.0 which is lovely. But you can only exercise in your dreams before that early morning reading!! I am beginning to think anxiety hormones may be involved for me. I am pretty highly strung and carry a lot of baggage that tends to bang around my anxious head when I wake at 5:30. A little protein late at night seems to work a bit if my BG is low on going to bed, but not if that is quite a high reading. I have been told alcohol at bedtime - the traditional nightcap - can help because it confuses the liver and preoccupies it into not dumping glucose. As alcohol has been cut out of my life as part of my low carb diet I am nervous about that.
Not sure what else to try or suggest. I have recently gone back onto Glucophage because I've been getting too many readings in the 6s and 7s. I had got them down to 5s and 6s. I can find no reason for this. I am continuing to lose weight and have 4 Kgs to go to get to my target weight - BMI 25 which gets me out of being "overweight" for my height. I am already well out of obesity. I really empathise with you. Keeping up the exercise and diet is hard IF YOU ARE NOT REWARDED ON THE BG TESTS!!!! Otherwise it's kinda fun. Oh...and I feel a horrible distaste for really really really obese people I meet who are not Diabetic - and apparently may never be. I know I shouldn't feel that. It's not very kind. But what's with this disease...!!???

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Your last comment about obese people who don't have diabetes made me laugh out loud! I was diagnosed just over two months ago with an HbA1c of 54. Although I was only a little bit overweight, I cut way down on carbs, and am now at a BMI of 22.5 (yay!). I work out (cardio, weights, HIIT etc) 5 times a week, as well as walk the dog an hour every day, but I dream of BGs in the 5s. At the moment, I'm managing to get the advised < 8.5 two hours after eating, but the averages seem to hover in the sixes and up to seven. Can get some FBG in the 5s, but more often they're at six-something. On the plus side, I've never had a hypo, and the red wine sounds like something I could force myself to adopt

L_J said:

Your last comment about obese people who don't have diabetes made me laugh out loud! I was diagnosed just over two months ago with an HbA1c of 54. Although I was only a little bit overweight, I cut way down on carbs, and am now at a BMI of 22.5 (yay!). I work out (cardio, weights, HIIT etc) 5 times a week, as well as walk the dog an hour every day, but I dream of BGs in the 5s. At the moment, I'm managing to get the advised < 8.5 two hours after eating, but the averages seem to hover in the sixes and up to seven. Can get some FBG in the 5s, but more often they're at six-something. On the plus side, I've never had a hypo, and the red wine sounds like something I could force myself to adopt

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I am very sympathetic as I seem to be in almost an identical position. Perhaps you also - like me - have high fasting levels in the morning. That's the one that a wee tipple the night before seems to help! By the way - I'm wondering just how much that Early Morning High really matters - if the rest of the day is good. I had my first reading in the 3s yesterday (3.2) yayyy! and seem more often to be in the 5's than 6s as a result of 150+ lengths (mixed breast/crawl and butterfly) per week and NO Carbs (always dry wine). However - this morning right back up to a fasting 6.8 having taken no wine last night... Anyone any thoughts?

Isnt wine apparently good for your BS. Im sure thats what a few have posted although Im not sure if its just certain types of wine.

4ratbags said:

Isnt wine apparently good for your BS. Im sure thats what a few have posted although Im not sure if its just certain types of wine.

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Any low-carb/no carb alcoholic drink has the effect of stopping, or slowing down at least, your liver from producing and releasing even more glucose into our system (the effect of the alcohol - it engages your liver so much in the clearing of it out it can't do much else!) as part of the Dawn Phenomenon if your liver is inclined to do that, and the low or no carb bit means you haven't contributed to your blood glucose in drinking it in the first place.

The red wine bit is that the reservetrol in the red grape skin is good for blood glucose control. Why I have no idea, but I have read that in many different sources. (And for us actually drinking grape juice or even eating a bowl of red grapes could raise our BGs, so you can see why an alcoholic red grape juice drink has such a benefit!) (I have never bought it but reservetrol as a supplement is pretty pricey too, I have seen.)

This is why so many diabetics are delighted for the red wine thing! But when it comes to alcohol, obviously the 'in moderation' thing is key . One is basically using a pleasant toxin to engage the liver in some work to get rid of it, and provide a good nutrient.

NZ merlots, I find, are an exceedingly pleasant way to get reservetrol and engage the liver overnight in something other than releasing glucose. .

Hi, very interesting to read your experiences. I've lost three and half stone, numbers Ok, but like above posters, would love to get consistent morning 5s. Three months after diagnosis I got them down for a while, then they went up a bit, now coming down but still getting 6s some mornings.

Have had very stressful two months, and notice now with work related stressful situation resolving to some extent, numbers are correspondingly better.

Bit of a random thought - in the way we can make our bodies stop loosing weight so well if we don't eat enough, as body goes into starvation mode and eaks out the calories we give it, is there any similar sort of process if we don't eat enough carbs, that could affect our bs levels. I read something about physiological insulin resistance, which linked very low carb diet to causing bs levels to go up, but don't quite understand it.

What I have done recently is eat just a bit more low carb veg, to get more vitamins and minerals into my diet, so it could be that which is helping bs go down a bit, not the reduction in stress.