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Late afternoon rising bgls - when does the Levemir run out?

pafandral

Member
I don't quite know what to try next! 12 year old son's (diagnosed 2.5 years ago) hba1cs have not been so good - 7.4, 7.7, 8.4, 8.1. So we have swapped from Lantus once a day to Levemir twice a day as his basal (with Novorapid as his bolus). This was to solve 3 problem areas
1) we were having to give him BIG bedtime snacks to prevent night/morning hypos, especially after sport, which is almost every day, but that meant his bgl would have to rise up into the teens mmols+
2) he was often high all morning - often his 10.30 morning breaktime bgl was well into the teen numbers again but fell to the normal range by lunch at 12.15.
3) his bgl was often high before tea at 6 p.m. even if it was 'normal' after school and he had not snacked after school - thought to be due to liver glucose

So we've swapped to Levemir, split the dose evening and morning and tinkered around with the doses more than once. Instead of 5 Lantus at night, he started on 5+1 Levemir but we have settled on 3.5 Levemir at night + 2 Levemir in the morning.

Problems 1 and 2 have been sorted more or less but 3)late afternoon high bgls still occur almost every day.

The obvious solution is to increase the morning Levemir again but with each increase in basal we are having to decrease the lunchtime bolus too (from 3.5 units to 2.5 units to cover 70-75 carbs)
to prevent hypos at the end of school!

Wise people...
How little bolus can he survive on? Do I just keep increasing his lunch carbs/decreasing the Novorapid. He seems to take much less insulin than other kids anyway.

Can we split the Levemir 50/50? or even have a bigger dose in the morning than in the evening? I keep reading how smaller doses of Levemir last less time and then about adults injecting 30+ units of it - so how can son's 5.5 units possibly last all day? I don't get that.

I read on here about basal testing? What's that? Will it help me work out if his basal is right?

Anyone any ideas what we should try next to prevent the late afternoon rise in bgl? What's worked for you?
 
Re: Late afternoon rising bgls - when does the Levemir run o

Thanks for that - I'll have a read.

I do however know the answer to the 12 year old boy and the sugar-free jelly question! It depends on the flavour - 6 watermelon or 5 blueberry apparantly, straight from the fridge of course :lol:
 
Re: Late afternoon rising bgls - when does the Levemir run o

Well, here is something for you to compare against but our kids are quite different ages.

Khaleb's Levemir is split so he has 6.5 units in the morning and 4 units at night. He then gets 1 unit of Novorapid for every 20 gm carb.

I don't find Levemir to have a very flat profile and when it kicks in for the morning Khaleb has a rather sharp drop and the same at his supper time. I've just learnt to live with this and time morning tea and supper to match. I've also found that it is too late to reduce Levemir on the night of exercise, or whenever you want to reduce it, as it seems to take days to settle into a new pattern. I can also agree with the afternoon being a time when it may seem the Levemir has run out. I do find that it seems to have a greater effect again later in the evening (before the night dose). If I increase the dose I get hypos so afternoon tea is small (only 10gr carb). This would make life difficult for a boy needing a decent afternoon snack after school and my only suggestion would be to do a small short acting injection.

Speaking personally, I can't imagine I would ever be able to or get a result from doing a fasting test on Khaleb. I only say this because he is still small and his Levemir plays a role of reducing blood sugar most of the time from part of his diet as well as natural production. The Levemir not having a completely flat profile would also hinder a fasting test. I gather adults wouldn't see the rises and falls as prominantly as parents see in children. Anyway, I think it would be a bit of a waste of time as it all has to balance out with whatever lifestyle is being led.

You look like you've got his hba1c levelling out and it seems fairly stable. I try to avoid those teen bsl's also but only manage it maybe 4 days a week. I'd rather a few of those higher figures than hypos.

All the best in your efforts to knock out some peaks.
 
Re: Late afternoon rising bgls - when does the Levemir run o

Oh happy day - thank you thank you thank you - someone other than us gets bgls in the teens!! I am almost in tears here, with joy and relief.

We only know of 2 children with diabetes - both age 7 and pumpers at the school where I teach. High-powered parents. No-one ever admits to their bgls being above the normal range. And they have better than perfect HBA1Cs.

You know when you go for your check up with the consultant, your HBA1C is above 7 and you feel like you are the only person in the diabetic world who is failing their child? I try to take a sneaky peak at the clinic list to reassure myself my son is not the only one with a 'bad score'.

Ideal scores, normal range! Pah. Let the medical teams try it for a while.

That's partly why I joined the forum here to read some honest comments on real life with a diabetic child.

Anyway, gripes apart. I too am sceptical that we could run a basal test on 12 year old son. We have also found that any changes we make to Levemir take a few days to kick in.

I think we might up his morning by .5 to 2.5 units and see what happens with bgls during the school day but will need to reduce Novorapid too because we are at the moment on a knife-edge of hypos at the end of school. We have been reducing lunchtime Novorapid and/or increasing lunchtime carbs and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
(How am I supposed to know how energtic gym club will be on Thursday if Mr R is the teacher compared to athletics training when Mr T is the teacher and anyway which one will he choose to go to or will he have a drum lesson instead!!??)

It just struck me this morning that maybe his Levemir started to run out at 4 p.m. when he started to inject his morning dose into his thigh rather than his behind. We think he's getting a lipo-thing so he made the change. Faster absorption from the thigh, perhaps?

Thank you for your advice - every little helps!
 
Re: Late afternoon rising bgls - when does the Levemir run o


NOOOOOOOOOOO! He'd explode! Individual portions only but he could always develop his expertise in this area!
 
Re: Late afternoon rising bgls - when does the Levemir run o

Just to make you feel good I thought I should tell you that every few months I'll miscalculate a meal and have a bsl in the 20's. This is a fairly rare event these days but it still happens. Khaleb is fighting off another cold/flu at the moment and his bsl's were fine until this afternoon when they started to creep up. He's barely getting over one disease and he's getting another and it is driving me bananas. :evil: :evil:

Khaleb's hba1c is quite low but we are not too far off our third anniversary. I am happy with anything below 8% for his age. Even though he is currently in the 6's it will creep up into the mid/high 7's over Winter with the illnesses. I really don't think you have too much to worry about and just keep going as best you can. I don't think you have a "bad score" at all.

Lots of the parents I know are very secretive about their kids bsl's but I'm really open about them to other parents and also Khaleb's medical team. Khaleb's Dr thinks his bsl's are perfectly normal for his age and being basal/bolus. You can't have pump control when you don't have a pump and there are plenty of reasons for and against pumping. Khaleb misses out because of intellectual impairment but I kind of like the fact he isn't attached to something.

Glad I brought a smile to your face. I just try to look at the big picture and not pick out individual bsl's to fret over.

 
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