Newcastle diet

AndBreathe · Dec 31, 2014

@fionamarie - Reading your other thread, where you talk about the impact of the holidays, I bet you would see a very rapid impact from the ND. Whether you elect to go down the meal replacement route, or by just strictly reducing your calories, I wish you well.

I read an article recently, talking about improving willpower; particularly relating to changes in eating. It suggested that having the same breakfast each day significantly helped dietary compliance in those trying to make positive changes. The idea was that making constant choices/food decisions can, over the longer term, weaken willpower as we become tired of constantly rejecting the "naught options". Having one simple go-to option takes one round of decision making out of the day, and therefore it reduces the chances of burn-out.

On that basis, I can see how the meal replacement strategy could be extremely helpful. When meals are mapped out, all you have to do is eat them. I have extremely good willpower (some would say I'm stubborn. Moi?), but I know if I'm feeling a bit fed up of things, I find it easier if we have our menus planned for a few days in advance.

@Pipp - Did you find the "no choices" aspect helpful?

Good luck if you decide to go down this route. I'm sure we'd all love to hear how you get on.

Pipp · Dec 31, 2014

AndBreathe said:
@fionamarie - Reading your other thread, where you talk about the impact of the holidays, I bet you would see a very rapid impact from the ND. Whether you elect to go down the meal replacement route, or by just strictly reducing your calories, I wish you well.

I read an article recently, talking about improving willpower; particularly relating to changes in eating. It suggested that having the same breakfast each day significantly helped dietary compliance in those trying to make positive changes. The idea was that making constant choices/food decisions can, over the longer term, weaken willpower as we become tired of constantly rejecting the "naught options". Having one simple go-to option takes one round of decision making out of the day, and therefore it reduces the chances of burn-out.

On that basis, I can see how the meal replacement strategy could be extremely helpful. When meals are mapped out, all you have to do is eat them. I have extremely good willpower (some would say I'm stubborn. Moi?), but I know if I'm feeling a bit fed up of things, I find it easier if we have our menus planned for a few days in advance.

@Pipp - Did you find the "no choices" aspect helpful?

Good luck if you decide to go down this route. I'm sure we'd all love to hear how you get on.

@AndBreathe
Yes, the fact that there was no choice made it so much easier. That and the stubborn determination to prove wrong the people like the doctor who wanted me to have bariatric surgery and said it was the only solution for me. It was the early days of the Taylor research, and not many people had heard of it. I too thought it sounded too good to be true but worked on the theory that it was 8 weeks of my life to stay with a programme of no food. I know of kids with crohns disease who have to do that frequently, so wasn't going to give myself hero status. Also, I have people dear to me who have had chemotherapy. That wasn't pleasant, but it was essential to their survival. So I took the chance, as I saw this as an opportunity I would not have if I was to wait until the research had been replicated and become mainstream and I am glad I did.

During the 9 weeks I did ND as Total food replacement (yes nine weeks just to show the doubters who said I couldn't do 8) I did not once eat anything other than the diet products and drink water. After the first day I felt no hunger or cravings. I have plenty of energy and was able to exercise daily. The most difficult times were social occasions. Food is always involved. Some friends (now former friends) were far too interested in what I was doing, and how quickly weight was falling away. I don't like that sort of attention. Worse still the people who would say things like "can't you just take a break for one night and have a curry and a few beers?" Well, I prefer to be able to clearly see all of my limbs, thanks.

I achieved the result I wanted, and suddenly the medical folk are using my experience to advise others.

Several things to beware of though.....anyone with history of eating disorders needs to be aware that the TFR can make one feel like wanting to continue that way because of the ketosis state giving a feeling of wellbeing. I would not advocate anyone doing TFR or even ND without the support from GP or at least pharmacy, and 12 weeks should be the absolute maximum time, with 6 to 8 weeks being a more reasonable time.

andcol · Dec 31, 2014

For information I did not use the shakes and just cut my diet and added a fair amount of exercise to the point that I was probably ony eating about 600 calories a day beyond the exercise. It worked for me so it seemed. The shakes just mean you dont need to think about your macro nutrients

Pipp · Dec 31, 2014

Andrew Colvin said:
For information I did not use the shakes and just cut my diet and added a fair amount of exercise to the point that I was probably ony eating about 600 calories a day beyond the exercise. It worked for me so it seemed. The shakes just mean you dont need to think about your macro nutrients

Thanks Andrew. I had forgotten your success. Sorry.
Can you clarify. Was that 600 calories consumed or 600 cals remaining after you factored in cals used by exercise.

Someone else who has had success is @paulins
Maybe she will be able to add something to the thread.

andcol · Dec 31, 2014

Pipp said:
Thanks Andrew. I had forgotten your success. Sorry.
Can you clarify. Was that 600 calories consumed or 600 cals remaining after you factored in cals used by exercise.

Someone else who has had success is @paulins
Maybe she will be able to add something to the thread.

the latter, free after exercise

Pipp · Dec 31, 2014

Andrew Colvin said:
the latter, free after exercise

Ah, right, thanks. For me it was consume 600 cals, then exercise, but didn't count cals spent in exercise.

Pipp · Dec 31, 2014

Think I might give it another go. Still have weight to lose. A lot.

Pipp · Dec 31, 2014

Pipp said:
Think I might give it another go. Still have weight to lose. A lot.

In the meantime I am away to see the old year out. Be well and be blessed everyone.

jack412 · Jan 3, 2015

Pipp said:
In the meantime I am away to see the old year out. Be well and be blessed everyone.

Pipp when I was looking up gallstones for pat, http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/happy-new-year-from-abu-dhabi.69803/#post-722417

I came across this 900 cal diet info where the people who had 30 g fat/d and one meal with a Tablespoon oil/butter 10g didn't get gallstones, and 4 of 6 people who didn't have the fat got gallstones

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8781321

Pipp · Jan 3, 2015

Thanks @jack412 .

The advice to include some oil wasn't included when I first did ND but it didn't matter for me. Could be something anyone thinking of vlcd needs to consider.

Pipp · Jan 3, 2015

douglas99 said:
I don't believe the Newcastle diet has been altered.
I did the original.

The link above is to an aborted study of a very small group nearly 20 tears ago.
And as jack appears to have done an extensive trawl of the internet again, one odd result from the last century probably doesn't mean much.

The Newcastle diet is low fat, and seems have been extensively repeated by many people across many continents, no issue with not feeling the desire to include fat seems to have been reported, and certainly no warning about gallstones on the Newcastle website.

But, it is up to the individual at the end of the day, stick to the diet as originally done, with the results published, with supervision, or change for the sake of change, and see what results are obtained from the new diet.

You only did the original if you used Optifast though. Optifast actually recommend adding oil to the daily vegetables to prevent gallstones.

paulins · Jan 3, 2015

I was diagnosed in January 2014. I immediately (within 24 hours) went onto the original Newcastle diet with the support of my GP. I have now lost 119 lbs and did this with Shake that Weight for 3 meals and the final meal non-root vegetables. After 3 months I gradually introduced some lean meats (chicken, turkey etc) and then discovered that spelt flour has less than half the carbs and so get spelt flour breads, pasta and rice for risotto. Gradually trying out foods to see how my levels are. I also learned to run and do 5/6 k almost every day. My last HbA1c Test was 4.6 and I have been told to consider myself non-diabetic. But I still monitor my levels closely and am learning how I respond to different foods. I am aware that this reversal may be remission or good control but I am physically healthier than I have been for years and will not put the weigh back on again. Ever! I am very careful now what I eat. I am not obsessed but weight myself every day. I let the weight creep on over years and so need to be alert to any slippage.
Over Christmas I had a bacon and tomato sandwich ( which I LOVE) for the first time in a year, and it did nothing awful to me (4.9 after 2 hrs. My friend also made me a diabetic Christmas cake and again I was fine - normal readings (5.2) after 2 hrs. I eat all vegetables now (including starchy root ones) and am fine. I had beef on New Year's Day (though not the pastry!) and was 5.1 after 2 hrs. Best one though was venison cooked in slow cooker very slowly - 4.7 after 2 hrs.
Worth all the hard work and cannot believe it has been a full year now. I am a different person, love wearing size 10 clothes again, and learning to like myself again. Best of luck with this folks. Not one way will suit all of us, and you must find your own way. But whatever you decide to do take control and it is your health and your life.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Pipp · Jan 3, 2015

from optifast.com.au

Pipp · Jan 3, 2015

douglas99 said:
Not on the optifast page, but I would be interested to read it.

http://www.nestlehealthscience.co.uk/products/optifast

ndications

Total diet replacement for liver shrinkage and weight control,
prior to bariatric surgery.
Precautions

We recommend that Optifast is used under medical supervision,
especially if using as a total diet replacement for more than three
weeks. You should maintain a good fluid intake as recommended
by your healthcare professional. Alcohol and excessive caffeine
should be avoided as it can lead to dehydration.

Did you use Optifast @douglas99 ?
Can you get it on prescription? My GP had not heard of it, but that was almost 4 years ago. I used Lipotrim as it was the nearest we could get at the time. It was Total food replacement and there was no mention of consuming oil in addition to the diet products.

I have since tried Tesco VLCD. Lost nonweight with them. Have had some success with Shake that weight products recommended by @paulins though.

Pipp · Jan 3, 2015

douglas99 said:
No, I used the Tesco, as it seemed to be the most similar in nutritional value to optifast.

Like you, I found no mention of any added oil requirement.

I can only speak of my personal experience though, and always recommend anyone to consult their own doctor, and follow the diet as prescribed.

Interestingly, the link you refer to, while only on the Australian website, and not the UK, or American one, is qualified in the FAQ's

Should I include a teaspoon of vegetable oil in my daily intake?
The inclusion of a teaspoon (5ml) of vegetable oil a day whilst on the Intensive Phase is important for those who are at risk of developing gall stones. The vegetable oil stimulates the emptying of the gall bladder, helping to prevent gall stones. Normally a teaspoon of vegetable oil is included in the daily serve of vegetables.

So, perhaps not required for all, and again, a very good reason why it should be done under medical supervision, so those qualified to can advise on if the addition is required.

Which is precisely why I took time to research fully and so did my GP. At the time the only product available to me that included medical supervision was the Lipotrim programme. No vegetables included in the diet on that one. Regular, weekly monitoring by pharmacist, and also saw GP or nurse every 2 weeks.

jack412 · Jan 4, 2015

douglas99 said:
I don't believe the Newcastle diet has been altered.
I did the original.

The link above is to an aborted study of a very small group nearly 20 tears ago.
And as jack appears to have done an extensive trawl of the internet again, one odd result from the last century probably doesn't mean much.

The Newcastle diet is low fat, and seems have been extensively repeated by many people across many continents, no issue with not feeling the desire to include fat seems to have been reported, and certainly no warning about gallstones on the Newcastle website.

But, it is up to the individual at the end of the day, stick to the diet as originally done, with the results published, with supervision, or change for the sake of change, and see what results are obtained from the new diet.

interestingly, you have no experience with optifast and your research seems to be lacking, as tesco powder replacement has 5.8g of protein and optifast powder has 17.5g, per recommended serve size , I wouldn't say they were that close in nutrients

yes it was terminated, but for ethical reasons because the ones without 30g of fat were getting gallstones
"Both diets produced comparable weight loss of 22%. Bile cholesterol saturation index increased during both diets (26%), but fell to 15% below prediet level after weight loss. Compared with subjects' maximal gallbladder emptying fraction of 66%, the 520-kcal diet provided poor gallbladder emptying (35%), whereas the 10-g fat meal of the 900-kcal diet provided maximal emptying. Gallstones developed in four of six 520-kcal subjects and none of seven 900-kcal subjects (P = .021), an unanticipated difference that resulted in premature study termination for ethical reasons."

you are more than welcome to look at the 250 links just on pubmed to find one that suits you regarding gallstones and weight loss
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=gallstone weight loss

Pipp · Jan 4, 2015

douglas99 said:
No, I used the Tesco, as it seemed to be the most similar in nutritional value to optifast.

Like you, I found no mention of any added oil requirement.

I can only speak of my personal experience though, and always recommend anyone to consult their own doctor, and follow the diet as prescribed.

Interestingly, the link you refer to, while only on the Australian website, and not the UK, or American one, is qualified in the FAQ's

Should I include a teaspoon of vegetable oil in my daily intake?
The inclusion of a teaspoon (5ml) of vegetable oil a day whilst on the Intensive Phase is important for those who are at risk of developing gall stones. The vegetable oil stimulates the emptying of the gall bladder, helping to prevent gall stones. Normally a teaspoon of vegetable oil is included in the daily serve of vegetables.

So, perhaps not required for all, and again, a very good reason why it should be done under medical supervision, so those qualified to can advise on if the addition is required.

Perhaps some clarification is needed as to "anyone at risk of gallstones". Could this be anyone with a gallbladder? An important point, because if this is the case it needs to be highlighted.

Pipp · Jan 4, 2015

douglas99 said:
While it is on the subject of the Newcastle diet, and your armchair googling seems to have highlighted tesco shakes only being 150 calories, based on your numbers for nutrients there, it only seems reasonable to ask you to give the source, so others can make their own judgement as to if indeed it is suitable, as Tesco doesn't seem to agree with you, and claim 201 calories, when made up correctly.
Possibly you have read it wrongly?

As for your second offer, as you say, we could spend all day selectively choosing studies that suit what we feel shows we are correct, and I'm sure we'd all find at least one.
That's the problem in making up your mind first, then trying to find studies to prove you are right. It will always work.
The internet is a far better place to canvas neutral opinions, read both sides, then make an informed choice from.

So I won't, as I don't feel I need to continually justify my experiences, or lifestyle, by constantly googling why it should or shouldn't work for me, then convincing others I'm right in my choice.
I'm just happy to report my experiences, what did, or didn't work for me, and get on with doing what suits me now.
I'm not out to convert people, I'm not going to say other ways don't work, but equally, I'm also not really convinced I should accept my way couldn't work, simply because a study found on google from 2 decades ago says it couldn't.
I'm sure you'll keep posting studies, and other finds, and I'm sure some have been useful to others on here.

But others can decide, they can read what I've done, what my results are, what I'm doing now.
Equally, they can read your finds, and use all the information to make up their own minds hopefully.

I really don't believe we should have to use this thread to justify personal choices. It muddies the water if we all argue rather than discuss, respectfully.

It does help to have information from empirical research for those of us who want to make informed decisions. Anecdotal evidence from individual experience is helpful, but I prefer to look at the bigger picture before deciding on what will be applicable and suit my individual circumstances. So, I am happy that you have found the right way for your individual circumstances @douglas99. As I hope that people will be pleased for me. I have BG non-diabetic levels for 3 years 3 months, ( 8 months without medication) but still have some weight to lose, can eat high carb with no spikes in BG. You, douglas, I think have lost weight, can eat carbs, but still have Metformin.

Keep well. By applying research to individual circumstances I believe much can be achieved.

jack412 · Jan 6, 2015

I was thankful Prof taylor took time to reply to my email, a dedicated man.

Prof Taylor,
I have followed your work online and 2 video lectures and wish to congratulate you on your research. It is a paradigm shift in T2 diabetes treatment.

I am writing to ask about the fat and protein grams in the new 5 year trial diets.
There is some data that 30g/d with a 10g fat meal will reduce the risk of gallstones and I would value your opinion
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8781321

Roy Taylor <roy.taylor@newcastle.ac.uk>

Dear Jack,

Thank you. In our current 5 year study we are using an 810kcal/day liquid formula diet which contains 12g fat. This is higher in fat than the original diet we used.

If a person is known to have gallstones or is thought to be of high risk, then it would seem wise to follow the pattern reported by Gebhard and colleagues or to have a modestly higher fat intake. The speed of weight loss is not critical – merely the achievement of target weight.

I hope this helps.

Best,

RT

Pipp · Jan 6, 2015

douglas99 said:
Haven't you just posted this?
Each shake has 4g of fat, 3 times a day?

Can you clarify please @douglas99 . Or was this a PM for someone?

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