Nutrition and supplements

Alexandra100 said:

I Googled to find out the food sources of zinc, and it seemed to me that given I'm not eating oysters daily (or indeed at all) it might be a good idea to supplement. I read that our supply of zinc needs to be renewed every day, so we can't even binge eat it to stock up for a while. My current solution is zinc + magnesium supplements, but I'm not particularly happy with that.

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Oysters are the best source but red meat and poultry are also good sources and you are more likely to eat them regularly, unless you are vegetarian of course.
This is a good guide....
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-Consumer/

If you are vegetarian and vegan especially I don't think it is possible to live healthily without supplements unless you are very careful.
@NicoleC1971 could you please explain why you think vegetarians would need supplements in order to live healthily?

Dr Snoddy said:

If you are vegetarian and vegan especially I don't think it is possible to live healthily without supplements unless you are very careful.
@NicoleC1971 could you please explain why you think vegetarians would need supplements in order to live healthily?

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If I may interject without B12 supplements a vegetable only diet would not contain anything more than trace amounts of B12 without B12 the immune system would become impaired just one effect of B12 deficiency..

JohnEGreen said:

If I may interject without B12 supplements a vegetable only diet would not contain anything more than trace amounts of B12 without B12 the immune system would become impaired just one effect of B12 deficiency..

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However, vegetarians who eat a wide variety of foods including either/or eggs, dairy products etc should not necessarily need any form of supplementation at all. Unless a deficiency has been clearly identified most supplementation is a waste of money and resources.
I fully appreciate that those on a strict vegan diet may need to supplement with B12 as may those who find that Metformin reduces their B12 levels. The attached link may be of interest.https://www.theguardian.com/.../vitamin-supplements-waste-…

I had zinc, magnesium, iron tests + the usual full blood count etc, recently and half expected my zinc or magnesium levels could be low, but all were within normal range, so was pleasantly surprised.. Eat a range of foods including meat and veg and fruit, and the only supplements I take are vitamin D3 with added calcium as vitamin d levels kept going low.

Lisa69free said:

Thiamine B1 too.
Thiamine administration can prevent the formation of harmful by-products of glucose metabolism, reduce oxidative stress and improve endothelial function. The potential benefit of long-term replacement in those with diabetes is not yet known but may reduce cardiovascular risk and angiopathic complications.

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Yes it’s a lng time ago since you posted this Lisa… but I was going to ask , on a new post nearly 3 years later, if anyone had taken B1/thiamine/ benfotiamine by itself? I am over 4 years into very disabilitating Long Covid and came across research into high dose of B1 etc to limit the impact of postural hypotension, only been taking it 4 days and seem to producing weird ‘symptoms including first time in 4 + years when 3 BP readings in a row were normal readings! Plus I think my BG is different, 2 days in a row I haven’t needed much insulin. I know a few days of such results doesn’t mean it’s a permanent effect, but I was interested to find out more. B1 research for anything save Beri-beri etc seems very limited, as one researcher pointed out as Big Pharma can’t make money from it. Just curious to know if you Lisa, or anyone else, found any interesting results from taking B1, or alternatives?

@Cumbrianjudith. Some notes on B1 that you or others may find interesting or useful. Some from experience, some from links below.
'Normal' B1/Thiamine is water soluble and I have been told people can take quite high doses without issue as it just washes out if too much.
Benfotamine is a fat soluable form of B1- So it is very important to follow dosing instructions of this in order to not overdose.
B1 is interesting in that it it used in its own absorption/processing/storage process, and how much you have determines which absorption/processing pathway is used.
If you are taking B1 its worth making sure you have enough other vitamins/minerals on board to enable its safe absorption and storage.

I agree that researching the deficiency is very difficult especially when wet and dry beriberi are mentioned! I also saw a really intersting article - can't remember where sorry- that mentioned that even those distinctions are not relevant to todays situation as most of those deficient would have had other deficiencies at the same time and who knows which was which back then.

I think the most useful distinctions are:
Thiamine is involved in the process of getting energy into muscles, and affects the function of the muscles. ( this includes everything from the heart, to your legs and your bladder)
Thiamine is involved in nerve function - sending messages - sensory and functional
Thiamine is involved in helping your brain function- thinking, talking and listening, movement and problem solving
Thiamine is involved in metabolic processes including blood glucose aspects, and in my experience a defiency can result in limb swelling( also poss related to heart function), and generally retaining water.
Thiamine is rarely tested by GP's and usually has to be asked for and fought for.
Thiamine deficiency can cause brain damage, so it is worth fighting for a test. (Wernicke-Korsakoff is the endpoint)
NB there is controversy about thiamine testing. The emergency hospital protocols I have seen say test, and then treat before the result comes back because of the potential negative outcomes. There are questions about the blood test accurately reflecting an accurate level of thiamine past the blood brain barrier.
Some have a policy of if in doubt treat, and if there is a benefit/positive outcome, keep taking it rather than relying on the test result.
The Brain and the Pancreas are very high users of Thiamine in the body - compared to other organs and systems. There is also a link between Thiamine and pancreas inflammation which I am further researching.

Low thiamine is usually caused by (in no particular order)
Alcoholism
Gastric bypass type surgery
Excessive loss from eg Kidney issues, long term diarrohea
Anti-Thiamine factors/thiaminases eg a loooot of coffee or tea, betel leaves/nuts, some shelfish, - there are others but they are rare, apart from Cassava which can be made into chips and seen in your local chip aisle.
Aging - as we age we absorb less
Family tendency. It is rare but I know from experience that there can be a tendency for lack of / reduced absorption in some families - this is suggested to be genetic and from a genetic change probably affecting one of the thiamine transporter genes but is very rare.
Medications
- This is a very new field with research out in 2020, and 2024.

Essentially early research shows that there are medications that block the Main Thiamine transporter ThTR2 and more are expected to be confirmed.

'Drug-nutrient interactions: discovering prescription drug inhibitors of the thiamine transporter ThTR-2 (SLC19A3)'​

( this is the 2020 research, there is subsequent)

Metformin is on their list of medications to research further, as are medications from other groups including antidepressants.

One of the articles outlines the issue that the inhibition of of the gene, not only affects the initial absorption, but also the processing/conversion/storage, the 'getting it into the cell to be used' , the ability of the Kidney to filter and retain the thiamine and also restorage/reuse. A nightmare. This also illustrates that although yor blood level may be OK, you may not have the enzyme function to get it used where it is needed.

So in short, worth talking to your GP about testing and or supplementation and seeing if it helps.

https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/thiamin is a useful resource with more than just 'beri beri' info.

Sorry read your messages to me in wrong order…but think what I had already replied is still appropriate, especially as I too had the metformin moment…it was because of its reputation to lowering B12 that I have taken it for years. I don’t tally with causes of B1 deficiency except growing old, my own parents were both single children, and only known ailment that passed down was anklosing spondylitits. As I have said I pursued the B1 from a Long Covid sufferer who was having BP/ HR problems and had tried the usual suspects like low ferritin. Aside from this I’ve just had a short lived bug for last few days( high temp, sore throat, headache, sore joints etc) and it has sent my BG levels wild with unpredictable glucose dumps…does make me aware that the continuous healing of Long Covid can well be taking a toll on body’s resources just not showing up in NHS blood tests!

Yes its crazy what virus' can do. I've just realised today that I've had one myself - thankfully not covid this time. Have spent days trying to manage blood sugar, pain, inflammation and mobility and could not figure out what on earth had happened.